Getting rid of scorers for guys who "play the right way"

[Archie Lee]

Respectfully to all, haven’t we seen enough players who we thought were not good enough to win with, go on to be plenty good enough to play a role of some kind on a winning team, to understand that it’s a rare player who is either:

- so good that he can perform at a consistently elite level even for the Sabres; or

- so bad on the Sabres that he can’t find at least a properly remunerated niche role on another team?

This debate doesn’t need to boil down to the extremes of “we need Olofsson” or “Olofsson sucks”. The reality is that we don’t need Olofsson because other players can do variations of what he does. Also, he isn’t terrible, he definitely has some NHL-level skills, and he wasn’t the reason we missed the playoffs in his time as a Sabre. 

This applies to Skinner and Mitts and Girgs and it applies to pretty much every player on our roster. They all can play a role on a playoff team. We are missing pieces though that allow them to collectively be a playoff team here. 

[SwampD]

5 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Respectfully to all, haven’t we seen enough players who we thought were not good enough to win with, go on to be plenty good enough to play a role of some kind on a winning team, to understand that it’s a rare player who is either:

- so good that he can perform at a consistently elite level even for the Sabres; or

- so bad on the Sabres that he can’t find at least a properly remunerated niche role on another team?

This debate doesn’t need to boil down to the extremes of “we need Olofsson” or “Olofsson sucks”. The reality is that we don’t need Olofsson because other players can do variations of what he does. Also, he isn’t terrible, he definitely has some NHL-level skills, and he wasn’t the reason we missed the playoffs in his time as a Sabre. 

This applies to Skinner and Mitts and Girgs and it applies to pretty much every player on our roster. They all can play a role on a playoff team. We are missing pieces though that allow them to collectively be a playoff team here. 

It’s what we do here because it’s all we have. We can’t talk about guys who could actually change the fortune of our team because Kevyn traded them all away.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, SwampD said:

It’s what we do here because it’s all we have. We can’t talk about guys who could actually change the fortune of our team because Kevyn traded them all away.

I miss Reinhart every day. 

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I miss Reinhart every day. 

I never understood the reasoning why he was not signed to an extension when we not only had the opportunity to do so, but also the player was willing to sign the extension. The GM nonsensically put him on hold. He then exercised his prerogative to leave. So the organization was forced to trade him. We had him, and we lost him because of this organization's own obtuseness. The accumulation of bad decisions/judgments has suffocated this withering franchise. It makes no freaking sense!

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I miss Reinhart every day. 

Reinhart is an interesting case, as I see us now doing to current players what we did to him. Expectations are not being met and scapegoats are needed. Reinhart did not become the elite player he is now until he reached age 26-27-28, after he left Buffalo. 

The average age at the start of last season of the core 9 players (top 5 F, top 3 D, starting goalie) for Florida and Edmonton was right around 28. Our comparable group this year is under 24. Go back 4-5 years and the core players for those cup contending teams were not collectively helping those franchises wet their playoff noodles. Some were there already, but most were scattered around other teams trying to make their way as pros. 

I recognize that we are not trying to contend for the cup this year. I’m ok with this being a make or break year for Adams (though, if that is the case, I take no comfort due to who will be doing the next hire and the restraints that may be placed on any replacement). It is absurd to me though that this is considered a make or break year for this core group of players. Levi is 22. The veteran goalie, UPL, is 25. Clifton is 29. After him our oldest D in the top 6 is Joker at 25. The average age of our 2nd line is 21 (they combined for 38 goals last year); the fill-in is 20. 

Could it all come together and we make some sort of thrilling, cardiac-kids level run to the playoffs?  Sure.  I’m not one to draw a line in the sand (call me cautious, a fence-sitter, rational, or wishy-washy, I’m not offended by any label). But to expect playoffs from this group of players (not management), is not just unrealistic, it’s not fair.

Who will be the next Reinhart?

Edited October 19 by Archie Lee

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I miss Reinhart every day. 

Even though he just potted 60, he has the hands to be the playmaking creative winger that could help Tage.  

He is like a high level swiss army knife - hands, skills, shot, smarts, ability to be in the right place - and he grew into a man body and can handle himself.  

[DarthEbriate]

18 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Even though he just potted 60, he has the hands to be the playmaking creative winger that could help Tage.  

He is like a high level swiss army knife - hands, skills, shot, smarts, ability to be in the right place - and he grew into a man body and can handle himself.  

And he would stand in front of the net on a powerplay and get deflection and mop-up goals. Really, really solid player who isn't the star, but is the straw that stirs the drink.

[calti]

On 10/18/2024 at 9:55 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Besides the last two years where he was a 57 pt guy.

OK...  The guy has natural hockey talent.But is limited athletically .

[Crusader1969]

On 10/18/2024 at 12:33 AM, Second Line Center said:

Skinner is on pace for 30 goals and 60 plus points.  Scored again tonight.  
 

Casey has 3 goals in 4 games.  

 

Dylan Cozens has ONE point in 6 games.  
 

WTH is going on???

Hey , can you update your skinner scoring pace??   

[Second Line Center]

50 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Hey , can you update your skinner scoring pace??   

 

More than Quinn and Cozens and that’s the problem.  

[gilbert11]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:31 PM, SABRES 0311 said:

If traded Tuch and Cozens I might not be upset.

Tuch?  He’s one of their best players and my favorite Sabre.

[PerreaultForever]

You need a mix of players and a balanced roster. You cannot get players who do not play the right way to play the right way unless the veteran leadership core of the team plays the right way, sets a standard, and demands new players meet that standard. In this entire Pegula era we have never had that core and have never set that standard. We just talk about it and turn over spare parts until the next rebuild or tank. They never seem to learn because this is the Pegula way. 

About Reinhart, he needed to be surrounded by players who played the right way. Once he was, he excelled. We never surrounded him with players like that. Eichel was no different. He should never have been captain. Once he had to adapt to a system and play under the leadership of character people like Stone, he too excelled. Drafting high doesn't matter if you don't create a culture and standard for those young guys to enter into. 

We always do it backwards and it always fails. 

[mjd1001]

18 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Hey , can you update your skinner scoring pace??   

I love doing scoring paces per 82!

Jeff Skinner:  14 goals, 14 assists, 28 points, -32,  13:42 ice time per game

Dylan Cozens: 14 goals, 18 assists, 32 points, -32, 17:48 ice time per game

Jack Quinn: 5 goals (All empty netters!), 19 assists, 24 points,  -29, 15:06 ice time per game.

 

Some others:

Tage:  56 goals, 36 assists, 92 points,  +36,  18:19 ice time per game

Tuch: 23 goals, 55 assists, 78 points, +36, 20:01 ice time per game (he kills penalties a lot now too))

Peterka:  36 goals, 46 assists, 82 points, +15, 18:05 ice timer per game

McLeod:  27 goals, 27 assists, 54 points, +32, 15:58 ice time per game

Zucker: 14 goals, 41 assists, 55 points, +9, 15:08 ice timer per game

 

It is obvious to me the Sabres have a legit 1st line.  Now like any other first line in the league they aren't going to score EVERY game, but when they are together, they are playing great.

The 3rd line also. Extremely legit 3rd line so far.  Many winning teams would be happy with that 3rd line.

The issue is the Cozens/Quinn Benson(whoever else) line but especially Cozens and Quinn.  When your first line doesn't produce, you can still win games if your 2nd and/or 3rd line step up.  You need your 2nd line to get you at least 60 goals, probably more. They aren't even getting half that from their 2nd line.

IF the 2nd line would just be meeting their career averages in production, this team might have a few more wins. But its not just their production, that line is also making more defensive mistakes, turning the puck over, and making bad decisions in the neutral zone, probably more than any of the other lines also.  "thinking" on ice is not Cozens strong suit...for a week or so he got better, but the last few games he is reverting back to what he normally is, and that isn't good.

Last night was Cozens night to step up.  Tage is out.  You are playing an 'average' team.  You are an "A" on this team, supposedly the highest ranking Center without Tage. You are the $7m guy.  And what did we get? Barely a whimper.

Yeah, the team has a few problems. I'm ready to drive Levi down to Rochester myself and keep him there until the calendar hits 2025, but with UPL hurt, what do you do? 

But think of it this way:  Suppose the Cozens line makes just one less dumb neutral zone or D-zone play every 3-4 games that results in a goal against. That saves you at least 3-4 goals this year so far.  Now pretend they are both on mid-20 goal paces (not 30+, just mid 20). That gets you at about 6 more goals (maybe more depending on their linemate) Sprinkle in 6+ goals and take away 3-4 allowed over the course of the season, and you have an extra 1-3 wins likely and are in a lot better shape in the playoff race. 

 

Edited Sunday at 06:17 PM by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I love doing scoring paces per 82!

Jeff Skinner:  14 goals, 14 assists, 28 points, -32,  13:42 ice time per game

Dylan Cozens: 14 goals, 18 assists, 32 points, -32, 17:48 ice time per game

Jack Quinn: 5 goals (All empty netters!), 19 assists, 24 points,  -29, 15:06 ice time per game.

 

Some others:

Tage:  56 goals, 36 assists, 92 points,  +36,  18:19 ice time per game

Tuch: 23 goals, 55 assists, 78 points, +36, 20:01 ice time per game (he kills penalties a lot now too))

Peterka:  36 goals, 46 assists, 82 points, +15, 18:05 ice timer per game

McLeod:  27 goals, 27 assists, 54 points, +32, 15:58 ice time per game

Zucker: 14 goals, 41 assists, 55 points, +9, 15:08 ice timer per game

 

It is obvious to me the Sabres have a legit 1st line.  Now like any other first line in the league they aren't going to score EVERY game, but when they are together, they are playing great.

The 3rd line also. Extremely legit 3rd line so far.  Many winning teams would be happy with that 3rd line.

The issue is the Cozens/Quinn Benson(whoever else) line but especially Cozens and Quinn.  When your first line doesn't produce, you can still win games if your 2nd and/or 3rd line step up.  You need your 2nd line to get you at least 60 goals, probably more. They aren't even getting half that from their 2nd line.

IF the 2nd line would just be meeting their career averages in production, this team might have a few more wins. But its not just their production, that line is also making more defensive mistakes, turning the puck over, and making bad decisions in the neutral zone, probably more than any of the other lines also.  "thinking" on ice is not Cozens strong suit...for a week or so he got better, but the last few games he is reverting back to what he normally is, and that isn't good.

Last night was Cozens night to step up.  Tage is out.  You are playing an 'average' team.  You are an "A" on this team, supposedly the highest ranking Center without Tage. You are the $7 guy.  And what did we get? Barely a whimper.

Yeah, the team has a few problems. I'm ready to drive Levi down to Rochester myself and keep him there until the calendar hits 2025, but with UPL hurt, what do you do? 

But think of it this way:  Suppose the Cozens line makes just one less dumb neutral zone or D-zone play every 3-4 games that results in a goal against. That save you at least 3-4 goals this year.  Now pretend they are both on mid-20 goal paces (not 30+, just mid 20). That gets you at about 6 more goals (maybe more depending on their linemate) Sprinkle in 6+ goals and take away 3-4 allowed over the course of the season, and you have an extra 1-3 wins likely and are in a lot better shape in the playoff race. 

 

Benson is going to be ruined playing with Cozens and Quinn.    He does all the dirty work on that line and is the only one that earns his ice.  The other two get ice by default, we have nothing else.  

[LTS]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Benson is going to be ruined playing with Cozens and Quinn.    He does all the dirty work on that line and is the only one that earns his ice.  The other two get ice by default, we have nothing else.  

I don't think Benson can be ruined. Cozens earns his ice every face-off, when he falls on it.  Seriously, who the hell falls on EVERY face-off? 

 

[DarthEbriate]

2 minutes ago, LTS said:

I don't think Benson can be ruined. Cozens earns his ice every face-off, when he falls on it.  Seriously, who the hell falls on EVERY face-off? 

I think Gaustad did for a while, but it was intentional to use his glove for the pass. This has since become a penalty.

Edited Sunday at 03:28 PM by DarthEbriate

[LTS]

Just now, DarthEbriate said:

I think Gaustad did for a while, using his glove for the pass. This has since become a penalty.

Ahh, well fair but as you point out, there was a reason.  Cozens just falls and the usually gets a cross-check to the head from the opposition center who won the face-off from him. 🙂

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

I don't think Benson can be ruined. Cozens earns his ice every face-off, when he falls on it.  Seriously, who the hell falls on EVERY face-off? 

 

The last faceoff of the game he didn't fall, Hathaway muscled him down, probably just hoping for another Cozens retaliation.  

[inkman]

Having guys on this roster that actually hit and play like men is a refreshing turnabout.  They still need to infuse more of it into their top lines / pairs.  They don’t come around often but players with skill that play rugged is a thing.  Go get some. 

[Scottysabres]

We had superstar scorers, on the roster, at the same time, and still drafted 1st over all.

55 minutes ago, inkman said:

Having guys on this roster that actually hit and play like men is a refreshing turnabout.  They still need to infuse more of it into their top lines / pairs.  They don’t come around often but players with skill that play rugged is a thing.  Go get some. 

I'd like both Tkachuk brothers here, like yesterday please.

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Benson is going to be ruined playing with Cozens and Quinn.    He does all the dirty work on that line and is the only one that earns his ice.  The other two get ice by default, we have nothing else.  

Quinn is playing in some kind of fog.  I know he didin't have a concussion, but he seems like someone who had a major concussion and came back way too early.

Cozens is just a bad hockey player right now, he hurts more than he helps. He IS usually good at generating his own shots (sometimes good shots) but he is bad at shooting accuracy, bad at neutral zone and defensive zone positioning, bad at faceoffs, bad at setting up his line-mates well and making those on the ice better around him.  Right now he's not 'just not performing to expectations', he is actually, legitimately bad.

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Having guys on this roster that actually hit and play like men is a refreshing turnabout.  They still need to infuse more of it into their top lines / pairs.  They don’t come around often but players with skill that play rugged is a thing.  Go get some. 

They have to be able to play hockey too.

Gilbert "plays the right way" but has one shot attempt in 6 games. It's only a matter of luck when we win with him in the lineup.

[Crusader1969]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:47 PM, Second Line Center said:

 

More than Quinn and Cozens and that’s the problem.  

Again if hockey was only played on a spreadsheet.    
I'll say it once more.  When you have the youngest roster in the league, you cannot have one of your few vets setting an example that defence isn't important 

 

[Crusader1969]

9 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Quinn is playing in some kind of fog.  I know he didin't have a concussion, but he seems like someone who had a major concussion and came back way too early.

Cozens is just a bad hockey player right now, he hurts more than he helps. He IS usually good at generating his own shots (sometimes good shots) but he is bad at shooting accuracy, bad at neutral zone and defensive zone positioning, bad at faceoffs, bad at setting up his line-mates well and making those on the ice better around him.  Right now he's not 'just not performing to expectations', he is actually, legitimately bad.

I would guess Quinn has never struggled like this in his life and is having a difficult time figuring out how to get out of a slump   Now he's in his own head and over thinking 

I won't be surprised to see Kulich kept up as long as they have a roster spot for him and Quinn gets a stint in the press box.   Quinn will figure it out eventually 

luckily the Sabres finally have the depth to sit guys when they are struggling 

[SabreFinn]

Agree that the struggles some of the players have might be the first time in their lives. This is where the veteran leaders should come in, IF we hade some, to calm things down and remind them that there is always a next shift and keep moving those legs.

And all of the real contenders have offensive pairs that works out no matter what. We have a good first line, but the rest is still loose pieces.