The Cozens Conundrum, 2024-25

[DarthEbriate]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

No! Not for me. Power stays. It's time to add talent and not subtract it. We traded Eichel and Reinhart. The return didn't come close to what was sent out. And to be perfectly candid, I don't want our current GM to make a deal this season. He's in a weak position that can be exploited. 

He never has the high ground, even when trading Eichwalker.

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

He never has the high ground, even when trading Eichwalker.

He actually was on a high ground and didn't realize it. He didn't have to trade Eichel at all. Eichel was contractual bound by an extended contract. If he couldn't get a higher return for his elite player, he should simply not have made a deal at that time. If he was so determined to deal him, then he should have waited for a more favorable time. His motto is buy high and sell short. Stupid!

Edited Tuesday at 12:10 AM by JohnC

[Carmel Corn]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No! Not for me. Power stays. It's time to add talent and not subtract it. We traded Eichel and Reinhart. The return didn't come close to what was sent out. And to be perfectly candid, I don't want our current GM to make a deal this season. He's in a weak position that can be exploited. 

So you want him to let Zucker, Greenway and Joki to walk away with nothing in return?  I don’t think any of them will be back despite any recent comments from any of them.  

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

So you want him to let Zucker, Greenway and Joki to walk away with nothing in return?  I don’t think any of them will be back despite any recent comments from any of them.  

I want Zucker and Greenway back. Why deal either one of them even if there is a risk that they might prefer to move on? They are UFAs so the return would be miniscule. I'm not writing off either one of them for next year. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:14 AM by JohnC

[Carmel Corn]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I want Zucker and Greenway back. Why deal either one of them even if there is a risk that they might prefer to move on? They are UFAs so the return would be miniscule. I'm not writing off either one of them for next year. 

Sure, it would be nice to have one or both back, but IMHO it’s not going to happen.  So a responsible GM would be business like and get something (instead of nothing) for them.  I disagree with you that the return would be minuscule….it may not be players, but you still take the future picks vs. getting nothing at all for them.

Edited Tuesday at 02:39 AM by Carmel Corn

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

Sure, it would be nice to have one or both back, but IMHO it’s not going to happen.  So a responsible GM would be business like and get something (instead of nothing) for them.  I disagree with you that the return would be minuscule….it may not be players, but you still take the future picks vs. getting nothing at all for them.

Nah, keep them so the locker room had adults. Rather that than a 3rd round pick that might be a solid 4th liner in 7 years. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

No! Not for me. Power stays. It's time to add talent and not subtract it. We traded Eichel and Reinhart. The return didn't come close to what was sent out. And to be perfectly candid, I don't want our current GM to make a deal this season. He's in a weak position that can be exploited. 

Not in any way suggesting we "subtract". Rather that the composition of this roster is not ideal and changing one type of player for another will get you sooner rewards than waiting for the next guy. For example, if Power and Brady Tkachuk were the center pieces in a big hockey trade I'm all ears on it. I also want to move prospects and picks for veterans. I want to win now, or I guess next year as this one is too late and I would do whatever it takes at this point. Whatever it takes. 

[Archie Lee]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Nah, keep them so the locker room had adults. Rather that than a 3rd round pick that might be a solid 4th liner in 7 years. 

I agree. Unless a team is overpaying, I don’t see the point. We have a bunch of drafted forwards who have in some ways overachieved their draft position, who we might not sign. I don't see the point of us having 12 picks in the draft if we aren’t going to utilize the assets. While momentum does not carryover from season to season, experience and understanding what it takes to win can carryover (I think). At some point our kids need to learn how to win, and putting them in a position where they lose is not the answer. 

[Night Train]

15 hours ago, inkman said:

What exactly are the Sabres going to get for an oft injured stay at home defenseman incapable of staying healthy and a 6’6” kid who is 5 years away from being a good NHL defenseman getting paid like a top pair D?  

Cap relief. 

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not in any way suggesting we "subtract". Rather that the composition of this roster is not ideal and changing one type of player for another will get you sooner rewards than waiting for the next guy. For example, if Power and Brady Tkachuk were the center pieces in a big hockey trade I'm all ears on it. I also want to move prospects and picks for veterans. I want to win now, or I guess next year as this one is too late and I would do whatever it takes at this point. Whatever it takes. 

I will again state what I have often stated: Power should not be moved. Full stop. That doesn't mean that I'm against making deals. There is no question that a player such as Tkachuk could have a material impact on our roster. But I'm not sure he would want to come here and I'm not sure that he would be willing to sign an extension to remain here. This organization certainly does have assets in players, prospects and draft picks to parlay. My concern right now is that our GM is not in a strong position when negotiating deals. If your desire is to have a significant deal done, I would rather wait until the offseason. 

I have taken the position that with a few smart midsized deals (not bonanza deals) that this roster can be upgraded and more prudently constructed to be a  competitive team. The model I would like to follow is the Washington Capitals. Their smart organization made a series of smart medium deals that made it one of the better teams in the league and a serious cup contender.   

[LGR4GM]

What is Dylan Cozens good at? Dead serious, what do ppl think he is above average at?

[inkman]

37 minutes ago, Night Train said:

Cap relief. 

They need it ?

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What is Dylan Cozens good at? Dead serious, what do ppl think he is above average at?

Put him on wing where he has thrived in the international tournaments. Two years ago, he scored 31 goals and had 37 assists for 68 pts, for a -3. There is no question that he has regressed. But that doesn't mean that the potential he exhibited two years ago has completely vanished. For those who argue to deal him, why do so now when his value is at a low point? Instead of focusing on this troubled season let's evaluate him with a wider lense and try to tap into the potential that was evident not too long ago. 

[Night Train]

17 minutes ago, inkman said:

They need it ?

If they wish to extend the right people going forward.  Those recent contracts were awful. 

[mjd1001]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Put him on wing where he has thrived in the international tournaments. Two years ago, he scored 31 goals and had 37 assists for 68 pts, for a -3. There is no question that he has regressed. But that doesn't mean that the potential he exhibited two years ago has completely vanished. For those who argue to deal him, why do so now when his value is at a low point? Instead of focusing on this troubled season let's evaluate him with a wider lense and try to tap into the potential that was evident not too long ago. 

Its apparent we agree he would be a lot better at wing. My criticism of him is as a Center. But that is all I can really talk about because this organization simply refuses to move him to wing.

With that said, my view of him as Center:

The 2 things I will repeat:

-He does well in a system where he doesn't have to think it seems. In international tournaments, those guys have played and practiced together for days, not months or years like teammates in the NHL have. The coach puts in 'systems' that are very basic, as you don't know your line-mates that well. Internatioanl tournaments are closer to 'do the basics, go out there and play', where the NHL is more complicated systems, playing off of your line-mates, etc.   Cozens plays well in the basic systems of international play. He flounders when he has to think. The NHL requires more thinking.   

Anytime he is put into a situation that seems to require any 'structure' of 'defensive coverage' where you are aware of your teammates and opponents, he fails.

If/when the team makes the playoffs and the play gets 'tighter', its likely he would play even worse in that environment.

-Is 31 goals repeatable for him?  I guess its possible, but as more and more time goes on, he really looks like a 9% shooter, not a 15% shooter he had that one year.  As a matter of fact, that 'one year' really wan't 'one year' of great shooting, it was about 1.5-2 months.  For the entire rest of his career, hes a guy that gets you 200 shots a year (hes on pace for a bit less this year actually) and looks to normally be a 9% shooter.

I agree he belongs on wing and he could be a GOOD player on wing.  But if he stays at center, I'm not sure how any of the above changes or gets better. He's not 22 anymore with 100 games of NHL experience.   Hes in his 5th NHL season and is approaching 350 games played.  

I will be a much, much happier Sabres fan when if he either gets moved off the roster, or moved to wing permanently. Either one will make me very happy (at least until the next 5+ game losing streak)   The reason I keep wanting/pushing for him to be traded is that is someone in this organization...Adams? Pegula?...that just will not let him be moved away from Center.

Edited Tuesday at 02:35 PM by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Put him on wing where he has thrived in the international tournaments. Two years ago, he scored 31 goals and had 37 assists for 68 pts, for a -3. There is no question that he has regressed. But that doesn't mean that the potential he exhibited two years ago has completely vanished. For those who argue to deal him, why do so now when his value is at a low point? Instead of focusing on this troubled season let's evaluate him with a wider lense and try to tap into the potential that was evident not too long ago. 

That's not what I am asking. What are the skills that he brings that are above replacement level? What is it that makes Cozens good? Skating, shooting, tenacity, physicality, vision, iq, defensive acumen ect... what is it?

16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Its apparent we agree he would be a lot better at wing. My criticism of him is as a Center. But that is all I can really talk about because this organization simply refuses to move him to wing.

With that said, my view of him as Center:

The 2 things I will repeat:

-He does well in a system where he doesn't have to think it seems. In international tournaments, those guys have played and practiced together for days, not months or years like teammates in the NHL have. The coach puts in 'systems' that are very basic, as you don't know your line-mates that well. Internatioanl tournaments are closer to 'do the basics, go out there and play', where the NHL is more complicated systems, playing off of your line-mates, etc.   Cozens plays well in the basic systems of international play. He flounders when he has to think. The NHL requires more thinking.   

Anytime he is put into a situation that seems to require any 'structure' of 'defensive coverage' where you are aware of your teammates and opponents, he fails.

If/when the team makes the playoffs and the play gets 'tighter', its likely he would play even worse in that environment.

-Is 31 goals repeatable for him?  I guess its possible, but as more and more time goes on, he really looks like a 9% shooter, not a 15% shooter he had that one year.  As a matter of fact, that 'one year' really wan't 'one year' of great shooting, it was about 1.5-2 months.  For the entire rest of his career, hes a guy that gets you 200 shots a year (hes on pace for a bit less this year actually) and looks to normally be a 9% shooter.

I agree he belongs on wing and he could be a GOOD player on wing.  But if he stays at center, I'm not sure how any of the above changes or gets better. He's not 22 anymore with 100 games of NHL experience.   Hes in his 5th NHL season and is approaching 350 games played.  

I will be a much, much happier Sabres fan when if he either gets moved off the roster, or moved to wing permanently. Either one will make me very happy (at least until the next 5+ game losing streak)   The reason I keep wanting/pushing for him to be traded is that is someone in this organization...Adams? Pegula?...that just will not let him be moved away from Center.

I think I ran the math either in this thread or elsewhere but Cozens comes out to a 20g player based on historical sh% info. 

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That's not what I am asking. What are the skills that he brings that are above replacement level? What is it that makes Cozens good? Skating, shooting, tenacity, physicality, vision, iq, defensive acumen ect... what is it?

I think I ran the math either in this thread or elsewhere but Cozens comes out to a 20g player based on historical sh% info. 

Yep, I saw that someplace.

A guy that on average will probably get you 20 goals, with a potential ceiling of 30 goals once every 5 years....but a potential floor of 15 goals 3 out of 5 years is my feeling.

Not good production at the same time when you are one of the worst defensive centers and worst at making your linemates better of all the centers in the entire NHL.

Edited Tuesday at 02:50 PM by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

14 hours ago, JohnC said:

He actually was on a high ground and didn't realize it. He didn't have to trade Eichel at all. Eichel was contractual bound by an extended contract. If he couldn't get a higher return for his elite player, he should simply not have made a deal at that time. If he was so determined to deal him, then he should have waited for a more favorable time. His motto is buy high and sell short. Stupid!

How quickly you forget that the Sabres would not allow the surgery that Eichel wanted.  That was their pretense to trade him, but most of us here believe (as in know) that was only part of it.  The Sabres relationship with Eichel had gone sour and the injury was a convenient point to separate on.  

When Adams traded Eichel he was at a huge disadvantage, one that the Sabres created for themselves, by not allowing the more advanced surgery that Eichel wanted.  So no, the Sabres were never on the high ground and Pegula looked like a petty child (once again) for not allowing his star player to get the medical procedure he wanted and needed.  

Not allowing the surgery, trading Eichel and Reinhart (and others), has done irreputable harm to the franchise in the eyes of NHL players, coaches and FO personnel across the hockey world.   It can only be undone by the Sabres changing their stripes from the top on down and committing to win.   On top of that the financial commitment by the Sabres has been minimal since 2019-20.   The same two characters are at the running this team and so far no one of consequence is going to willfully come here. 

You heard that Zito was interviewed?  You heard that Briere was "talked too" and he asked for a non interference clause?  

It will take some slick maneuvering coupled with some good luck to mold this team into W/C playoff team, which is not a solid playoff team (that is another step), which is not a solid Cup contender (which is another step).    

[EM88]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

What is Dylan Cozens good at? Dead serious, what do ppl think he is above average at?

1.) I think he is an aggressive skater who is willing to forcheck hard and go into the corners and fight for the puck.

2.) I also think he has a quality that Quinn has lost. Cozens is willing to carry the puck into traffic, at risk of taking a hit to get the puck in front of the opposing net.

 

Those 2 qualities might make him a good Winger.  He could be "Tuch lite".

 

However those do not make up for his negative qualities especially at center:

1.) He is a below average shooter.

2.) he has no situational awareness

3.) he cannot maintain his position defensively. Opposing teams can run a high school level play to lure him out of his zone and open up scoring chances against the Sabres.

4.) He does make his linemates better. Most of the time he makes them worse. Players numbers and metrics go up when they leave his line, and get worse when they join him.

5.) He hurts the team. Over the course of the year, through simple observation, or looking at basic numbers, or looking at advanced numbers, the team is worse when he is on the ice than it is when he is sitting on the bench in almost all situations. 

6.) When Thompson got hurt and had to move to wing because he could not take draws, Cozens was moved up to the 1st line with Thompson and Zucker against Seattle. That first line was a combined -12 for the game. For the year Tuch and Zucker, taking out that game, are a combined +18 on the year. But in that one single game saddled with Cozens, the line was that -12.  

That line stuck together the next game, and while the Sabres won, that line was 30 points below even on Corsi%, 32 points below even on Fenwick%, they were outshot 7 to 1 even strength. They were split up part way through the game and have not been together since.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:22 PM by EM88

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, EM88 said:

6.) When Thompson got hurt and had to move to wing because he could not take draws, Cozens was moved up to the 1st line with Thompson and Zucker against Seattle. That first line was a combined -12 for the game. For the year Tuch and Zucker, taking out that game, are a combined +18 on the year. But in that one single game saddled with Cozens, the line was that -12.  

That line stuck together the next game, and while the Sabres won, that line was 30 points below even on Corsi%, 32 points below even on Fenwick%, they were outshot 7 to 1 even strength. After that the line was split back up. Cozens drags down drastically his own linemates.

 

 

Those who support Cozens and want status quo with him.....the above is why that baffles me.  You quoted the numbers....you don't even NEED the numbers to watch him game after game make dumb decisions at center.  

The numbers don't just back up that he makes awful decisions....they hammer it home like no argument has ever been hammered home.

A bad year by UPL?  Bad defensive play by Power and Samuelsson?  Quinn being invisible early in the year? Injuries to Tage and Dahlin?  They all pale in comparison to how much Cozens hurts this team.  If Cozens was not on this roster from day 1, and his minutes were replaced with an 'average guy' who doesn't really help you but doesn't really hurt you, and I think this team would be much better in the standings with that one simple change.

Edited Tuesday at 03:21 PM by mjd1001

[DarthEbriate]

17 hours ago, JohnC said:

He actually was on a high ground and didn't realize it. He didn't have to trade Eichel at all. Eichel was contractual bound by an extended contract. If he couldn't get a higher return for his elite player, he should simply not have made a deal at that time. If he was so determined to deal him, then he should have waited for a more favorable time. His motto is buy high and sell short. Stupid!

Exactly, he should have had the advantageous position, and he and his owner walked themselves down beside the lava where it was warm and cozy.

[Crusader1969]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What is Dylan Cozens good at? Dead serious, what do ppl think he is above average at?

I have a feeling people in Calgary were saying the same thing about Sam Bennett before he was traded to Florida 

Cozens is a tough case right now.   I still think the Sabres have a player that can give a lot more than he has over the last 2 years.   
if they do trade him, hopefully they get a lot more than what Calgary got for Bennett

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

How quickly you forget that the Sabres would not allow the surgery that Eichel wanted.  That was their pretense to trade him, but most of us here believe (as in know) that was only part of it.  The Sabres relationship with Eichel had gone sour and the injury was a convenient point to separate on.  

When Adams traded Eichel he was at a huge disadvantage, one that the Sabres created for themselves, by not allowing the more advanced surgery that Eichel wanted.  So no, the Sabres were never on the high ground and Pegula looked like a petty child (once again) for not allowing his star player to get the medical procedure he wanted and needed.  

Not allowing the surgery, trading Eichel and Reinhart (and others), has done irreputable harm to the franchise in the eyes of NHL players, coaches and FO personnel across the hockey world.   It can only be undone by the Sabres changing their stripes from the top on down and committing to win.   On top of that the financial commitment by the Sabres has been minimal since 2019-20.   The same two characters are at the running this team and so far no one of consequence is going to willfully come here. 

You heard that Zito was interviewed?  You heard that Briere was "talked too" and he asked for a non interference clause?  

It will take some slick maneuvering coupled with some good luck to mold this team into W/C playoff team, which is not a solid playoff team (that is another step), which is not a solid Cup contender (which is another step).    

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. That's okay. Eichel is not a fool and is going to cavalierly jeopardize his career by undergoing a high risk surgery when there were alternatives. The surgery that Vegas allowed and that Jack wanted was a surgery that was considered "an acceptable practice" surgery in Europe. Europe is known for approving new techniques than the more cautious US medical system. And in hindsight, the surgery worked out so well for Jack that other players followed suit and got the same procedure done. 

There is no question that the owner was upset with Jack when he expressed his desire to get out of this pissshole franchise. He's a competitor who wanted to win and didn't see that happening here. He was right. He left and ended up the cup on a consistently good team. The GM and owner who wanted to screw him to this day preside over a flailing franchise. What would have been a better approach for this dumbasssss organization. How about allowing to get the surgery and getting healthy sooner so this asset would have more value on the market. The owner was too caught up with his own ego to get back at Jack at the expense of setting this franchise back even further. 

And let's revisit the Reinhart situation. He was willing to sign an extension. But the GM declined. So this top tier player ends up getting to his UFA year where he needed to be dealt for pennies on the dollar. How stupid was that!

I repeatedly have stated that the prime source for this franchise's extended failure is the obtuse owner whose main attributes are stubbornness and lack of self-awareness with respect to his hockey knowledge. 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

That's not what I am asking. What are the skills that he brings that are above replacement level? What is it that makes Cozens good? Skating, shooting, tenacity, physicality, vision, iq, defensive acumen ect... what is it?

 

A few years ago, he scored 31 goals and had 37 assists. You may be dismissive of that production but I'm not. Cozens is not a finesse player. He's a grinder who has shown that he can score. We need more players, not less, who play with a degree of physicality. I would love for him to get back on track. Right now, he's pressing and playing with too much self-manufactured stress. If he could get back to the form that he demonstrated a couple of years ago, I would be more than pleased. 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Its apparent we agree he would be a lot better at wing. My criticism of him is as a Center. But that is all I can really talk about because this organization simply refuses to move him to wing.

With that said, my view of him as Center:

The 2 things I will repeat:

-He does well in a system where he doesn't have to think it seems. In international tournaments, those guys have played and practiced together for days, not months or years like teammates in the NHL have. The coach puts in 'systems' that are very basic, as you don't know your line-mates that well. Internatioanl tournaments are closer to 'do the basics, go out there and play', where the NHL is more complicated systems, playing off of your line-mates, etc.   Cozens plays well in the basic systems of international play. He flounders when he has to think. The NHL requires more thinking.   

Anytime he is put into a situation that seems to require any 'structure' of 'defensive coverage' where you are aware of your teammates and opponents, he fails.

If/when the team makes the playoffs and the play gets 'tighter', its likely he would play even worse in that environment.

-Is 31 goals repeatable for him?  I guess its possible, but as more and more time goes on, he really looks like a 9% shooter, not a 15% shooter he had that one year.  As a matter of fact, that 'one year' really wan't 'one year' of great shooting, it was about 1.5-2 months.  For the entire rest of his career, hes a guy that gets you 200 shots a year (hes on pace for a bit less this year actually) and looks to normally be a 9% shooter.

I agree he belongs on wing and he could be a GOOD player on wing.  But if he stays at center, I'm not sure how any of the above changes or gets better. He's not 22 anymore with 100 games of NHL experience.   Hes in his 5th NHL season and is approaching 350 games played.  

I will be a much, much happier Sabres fan when if he either gets moved off the roster, or moved to wing permanently. Either one will make me very happy (at least until the next 5+ game losing streak)   The reason I keep wanting/pushing for him to be traded is that is someone in this organization...Adams? Pegula?...that just will not let him be moved away from Center.

Your last paragraph is where my scorn is directed toward. Bad decisions lead to bad outcomes. This organization handcuffs itself with its own mediocrity. A lack of sagacity is a sophisticated way of saying inept and stupid.