Sabres Training Camp Thread

[Porous Five Hole]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Most definitely. How Cozens is this year will be a big part of how well this team can do. If he is the same as last year we are in trouble. 

I think after his extension, Cozens believed he needed to be a goal scorer to “earn” his contract.  But I don’t want him to think that is his role. I want him to understand his role is “Captain Canada,” and doing all the little things to help this team win. I want him to win the important face off, or be the most defensively responsible at the end of a game, or kill the big PK, and chip in offensively. 

If he can grasp the jack of all trades and master of none, this team will be far better off than relying on him “being paid to score goals.”

I need an all situations guy and not someone who is trying to pump 40. End of story. 

[bob_sauve28]

 

[mjd1001]

6 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I think after his extension, Cozens believed he needed to be a goal scorer to “earn” his contract.  But I don’t want him to think that is his role. I want him to understand his role is “Captain Canada,” and doing all the little things to help this team win. I want him to win the important face off, or be the most defensively responsible at the end of a game, or kill the big PK, and chip in offensively. 

If he can grasp the jack of all trades and master of none, this team will be far better off than relying on him “being paid to score goals.”

I need an all situations guy and not someone who is trying to pump 40. End of story. 

Its possible, but his drop-off in goals last year doesn't seem to him playing a 'different style'.

When you look at basic-to-mid metrics, he played pretty much the same game (in the offensive zone) as the year before, by the numbers. To me it looks like the only thing different is he simply did not convert on his chances last year:

-2.6 shots per game the year before, 2.54 shots per game last year. Nearly identical in terms of how many shots he took.

-Even more telling is if you look at where he took those shots from, the chart is very, very close for each year. (Shot chart attached below). He took a small number of shots less from directly in front of the net and a bit more from farther out, but not enough to make a huge difference).

-I didn't attach the shooting percentage charts, but if you look at them, again, its not so much where he took the shots from but his rate of converting. From the 'high danger' chances in front of the net between the circles and up to the circles 2 years ago he had 68 shots and 13 goals (over 19% shooting percentage from that area).  Last year he had 5 goals on 54 shots (9.3% shooting percentage, less than half the previous year) from the high danger areas.

Close to the same shots/opportunities from the same spots on the ice, he just didn't convert for some reason.

-On NHL edge, his top skating speed is almost identical. The average length he carried the puck is very close.  Even his metrics that are different aren't VERY different.

I haven't looked deep into the super-mega advance stats, but from his 'regular' stats, to some of the mid level ones, he played the same game, with close to the same opportunities over the past 2 seasons. The only thing that changes in a big way was his shooting percentage.

Basically, the reason for his drop-off in production was primarily he how well he finished when taking the shot. The opportunities and positions were almost the same.

Edited September 21 by mjd1001

[That Aud Smell]

10 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

I enjoy her photographs.

I don’t like this Tweet.

That’s more on me than anything, though. My heart’s become too hardened to enjoy such Sabre silliness.

[FrenchConnection44]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

Honestly I think Cozens game dropped off much of the year after his fight with Hathaway and his broken nose & black eye. A big mistake to do that. He seemed to come around late. But it appeared to take a lot out of him.  He just wasn’t his same confident, aggressive self after that. 

But that’s why we need 1-2 solid but bruising, physical players - who can actually play, not just goons - to handle that. 

This below is a good sign. Wish all the young guys (esp. Power) would have this off season focus. 
 

 

[Archie Lee]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

Incredibly unscientific, small sample size, but I’m pretty sure this is the line that finished the season playing together.

Over the month of April (7 games), they went

• Quinn 4/3/7 +3 52.2% Corsi
• Benson 2/5/7 +1 55.2% 
• Cozens 3/2/5 +3 53.8%

They were 3 of the team’s top 6 scorers and 3 of its top 5 possession players.

In short, they were pretty good.

The team beat Washington twice, Philly and TAmpa, lost to Dallas, Detroit and Florida in OT

A good comparable would be Levi's performance over the last final 7-8 games of the 22-23 season and how that carried over to 23-24.  Oh...wait...just kidding...sort of. 

I have no issues with Cozens, Benson and Quinn as individual players. I'm thrilled that we have all three.  I don't like them as a line (2nd line!!) right now because they have an average age of 21 and none of them are fully formed as NHL hockey players.  I really am a little salty about us again asking Cozens (in his 5th NHL year, at age 23, with there being significant pressure on him to be the true 2nd line, two way, tough to play against centre that we need to get over the hump), to give us what we need while playing with two players even younger and less-experienced than he is.  Some will view this as me being negative about Quinn and Benson, but I'm not; it is likewise unfair to ask both of them to play like veterans who are ready to help lead this team into the playoffs. 

Burdened by self-doubt as I am, I can without hesitation acknowledge that they are very talented players and that it could certainly workout fine. Much like handing the keys to Levi at the start of last year though, I don't see the point in taking the risk.  

Edited September 21 by Archie Lee

[GASabresIUFAN]

I noticed in the scrimmage that the lines Lindy used were pretty much what we posted during the offseason. 

JJP Tage Tuch

Benson Cozens Quinn

Zucker McLeod Greenway

Kube Lafferty Malenstyn

with Krebs, Rousek and Kulich fighting for a role. 

 

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I noticed in the scrimmage that the lines Lindy used were pretty much what we posted during the offseason. 

JJP Tage Tuch

Benson Cozens Quinn

Zucker McLeod Greenway

Kube Lafferty Malenstyn

with Krebs, Rousek and Kulich fighting for a role. 

 

As you noted, it shouldn't be a surprise how the lines most likely will be constituted. Once JJP seemed to solidify his spot on the first line, the rest of the lines appear (tentatively) to have fallen into place. The first line group entered camp as penciled in, and so does the fourth line that was reconstituted via trades. There may be some competition between Benson and Zucker for a second line wing, but as it stands Benson starting off on the second line shouldn't be a surprise. 

A few of the players I will focus on are Benson, Quinn, Power, Byram and JJP. If the young guys can continue on with their progression, I'll be optimistic about this season. The player I'm looking for to make a big leap is Quinn. 

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

A good comparable would be Levi's performance over the last final 7-8 games of the 22-23 season and how that carried over to 23-24.  Oh...wait...just kidding...sort of. 

I have no issues with Cozens, Benson and Quinn as individual players. I'm thrilled that we have all three.  I don't like them as a line (2nd line!!) right now because they have an average age of 21 and none of them are fully formed as NHL hockey players.  I really am a little salty about us again asking Cozens (in his 5th NHL year, at age 23, with there being significant pressure on him to be the true 2nd line, two way, tough to play against centre that we need to get over the hump), to give us what we need while playing with two players even younger and less-experienced than he is.  Some will view this as me being negative about Quinn and Benson, but I'm not; it is likewise unfair to ask both of them to play like veterans who are ready to help lead this team into the playoffs.  Burdened by self-doubt as I am, I can without hesitation acknowledge that they are very talented players and that it could certainly workout fine. I don't see the point in taking the risk though.  

This post is the Sabres and Sabrespace right now in a nutshell:

”I know these players are talented but they’ve given me no reason to have faith they’ll be GOOD THIS YEAR.”

It applies to Cozens, Benson and Quinn.

But is also applies to Thompson and Tuch, and Luukkonen and Peterka, and Byram and Power and Levi and Samuelsson. It even applies to Dahlin, (except with him it’s not about how good, it’s about how great.)

That’s half the team and its entire core.

The flip side of that is they’re young, but they’re not rookies any more. Most of them are at the point where they need to show us what they’re made of.

We’re pushing the chicks out of the nest and they’re going to fly or fall. And if they fall, we’re probably on to another rebuild.

It’s ***** terrifying.

 

[Stads]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This post is the Sabres and Sabrespace right now in a nutshell:

”I know these players are talented but they’ve given me no reason to have faith they’ll be GOOD THIS YEAR.”

It applies to Cozens, Benson and Quinn.

But is also applies to Thompson and Tuch, and Luukkonen and Peterka, and Byram and Power and Levi and Samuelsson. It even applies to Dahlin, (except with him it’s not about how good, it’s about how great.)

That’s half the team and its entire core.

The flip side of that is they’re young, but they’re not rookies any more. Most of them are at the point where they need to show us what they’re made of.

We’re pushing the chicks out of the nest and they’re going to fly or fall. And if they fall, we’re probably on to another rebuild.

It’s ***** terrifying.

 

[Derrico]

48 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

  I really am a little salty about us again asking Cozens (in his 5th NHL year, at age 23, with there being significant pressure on him to be the true 2nd line, two way, tough to play against centre that we need to get over the hump)

Disagree.  This is his fifth NHL season and entering the prime years of his career.  If he fails it’s because he will never be that player we’ve hoped for, not because he’s too young.  Some players on this team are still inexperienced for their roll (Benson perhaps but he’s shown he belongs there).  Cozens doesn’t fit that description.  He’s not too young.  He’s not too inexperienced. 
 

If not year 5 then when?

Edited September 21 by Derrico

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Disagree.  This is his fifth NHL season and entering the prime years of his career.  If he fails it’s because he will never be that player we’ve hoped for, not because he’s too young.  Some players on this team are still inexperienced for their roll (Benson perhaps but he’s shown he belongs there).  Cozens doesn’t fit that description.  He’s not too young.  He’s not too inexperienced. 
 

If not year 5 then when?

Good post.

23ish, 3rd or 4th season-ish, 200 games-ish: those are typical signposts where players transition from developing to regular.

Kevyn Adams is right about one thing: youth is no longer an excuse.

There are a lot of Sabres at the point of their careers where they need to become who they will be.

 

[Archie Lee]

4 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Disagree.  This is his fifth NHL season and entering the prime years of his career.  If he fails it’s because he will never be that player we’ve hoped for, not because he’s too young.  Some players on this team are still inexperienced for their roll (Benson perhaps but he’s shown he belongs there).  Cozens doesn’t fit that description.  He’s not too young.  He’s not too inexperienced. 
 

If not year 5 then when?

That's not really countering my point.  I'm not arguing that Cozens isn't or shouldn't be ready to be good, I'm arguing the opposite and adding that it is time to give him two wingers who are already there.

There comes a time when we have to fully support a player (in this case Cozens), by surrounding him with players who will help him be successful. This is not a shot against Quinn and Benson, nor am I fully discounting the possibility that together they might be great. Dylan Cozens would have a better chance to be a fully impactful player if his line-mates were the equivalent of what we project Quinn and Benson to be 3-4 years from now. I submit that this is self-evident.

Just now, dudacek said:

Good post.

23ish, 3rd or 4th season-ish, 200 games-ish: those are typical signposts where players transition from developing to regular.

Kevyn Adams is right about one thing: youth is no longer an excuse.

There are a lot of Sabres at the point of their careers where they need to become who they will be.

 

Totally misses the point though.  Cozens may well be and should be ready.  The same can't be so definitively said about his projected line-mates though.

[LGR4GM]

32 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

That's not really countering my point.  I'm not arguing that Cozens isn't or shouldn't be ready to be good, I'm arguing the opposite and adding that it is time to give him two wingers who are already there.

There comes a time when we have to fully support a player (in this case Cozens), by surrounding him with players who will help him be successful. This is not a shot against Quinn and Benson, nor am I fully discounting the possibility that together they might be great. Dylan Cozens would have a better chance to be a fully impactful player if his line-mates were the equivalent of what we project Quinn and Benson to be 3-4 years from now. I submit that this is self-evident.

Totally misses the point though.  Cozens may well be and should be ready.  The same can't be so definitively said about his projected line-mates though.

I think Jack Quinn will be better than Cozens this season. 

[Derrico]

Roy Vanek Pommer line from yesteryear would say otherwise.  I’m confident Ruff will mix through the likes / wingers if and when needed. 
 

This team finally has some depth.  If it doesn’t work as first envisioned he’s a good coach at adjusting. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Derrico said:

Roy Vanek Pommer line from yesteryear would say otherwise.  I’m confident Ruff will mix through the likes / wingers if and when needed. 
 

This team finally has some depth.  If it doesn’t work as first envisioned he’s a good coach at adjusting. 

[Archie Lee]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Jack Quinn will be better than Cozens this season. 

I respect this view and have no argument against it.  I don't really have an opinion on whether, all things considered, Cozens will have a better year than Quinn.  What I do know is that if you look at the depth charts of teams that are expected and expecting to be in the playoffs this year, you won't find a projected 2nd line composed of the equivalent of a 23 year old centre coming off a disappointing season, a 22 year old RW who hasn't topped 15 goals or 40 points in his NHL career and who is coming off an injury plagued season, and a 19 year old LW who had 30 points as a rookie. It's asking a lot to expect these players to play the role we are going to ask them to play while placing "playoff expectations" on the team.  No other team in the NHL that is expecting to be in the playoffs is doing this (or would, for that matter). 

[Derrico]

5 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I respect this view and have no argument against it.  I don't really have an opinion on whether, all things considered, Cozens will have a better year than Quinn.  What I do know is that if you look at the depth charts of teams that are expected and expecting to be in the playoffs this year, you won't find a projected 2nd line composed of the equivalent of a 23 year old centre coming off a disappointing season, a 22 year old RW who hasn't topped 15 goals or 40 points in his NHL career and who is coming off an injury plagued season, and a 19 year old LW who had 30 points as a rookie. It's asking a lot to expect these players to play the role we are going to ask them to play while placing "playoff expectations" on the team.  No other team in the NHL that is expecting to be in the playoffs is doing this (or would, for that matter). 

I’m not convinced that running out a patty kane and vlad terasenko in the twilights of their career is a better option.  I really don’t.  Give me the younger upside.  These aren’t complete rookies.  I’ve seen enough from all 3 that there is huge potential there.  Many forget how good Quinn peterka and cozens line looked two years ago.  
 

You are right.  That line probably has a large impact on where the Sabres end up.  I’ll still sign up for our second line over the wings veterans. 

[Archie Lee]

30 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Roy Vanek Pommer line from yesteryear would say otherwise.  I’m confident Ruff will mix through the likes / wingers if and when needed. 
 

This team finally has some depth.  If it doesn’t work as first envisioned he’s a good coach at adjusting. 

Setting aside that it was nearly a generation ago, I don't think Roy, Vanek, Pommer were ever a 2nd line combination at the ages in question.

To the bolded, you are quite correct.  I actually don't anticipate that Benson/Cozens/Quinn will be a line all season, and they almost certainly won't be if they don't perform well together. My comments are directed more to those who think that is a good 2nd line for this team in this critical year, than it is to the notion that Ruff is determined for that to be a line throughout the season.  

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I respect this view and have no argument against it.  I don't really have an opinion on whether, all things considered, Cozens will have a better year than Quinn.  What I do know is that if you look at the depth charts of teams that are expected and expecting to be in the playoffs this year, you won't find a projected 2nd line composed of the equivalent of a 23 year old centre coming off a disappointing season, a 22 year old RW who hasn't topped 15 goals or 40 points in his NHL career and who is coming off an injury plagued season, and a 19 year old LW who had 30 points as a rookie. It's asking a lot to expect these players to play the role we are going to ask them to play while placing "playoff expectations" on the team.  No other team in the NHL that is expecting to be in the playoffs is doing this (or would, for that matter). 

I respect this view too, but you can't really compare what the Sabres are trying to do with the majority of playoff teams

This is not a contender looking to add a missing piece, or an established team trying to hold on to a playoff spot, or climb back into one. This is a downtrodden franchise attempting to rebuild from within with youth.

Who has had success with that method and what did they look like?

When Toronto took its step from doormat to perennial contender, these were the ages of its 6 highest-scoring forwards

• Matthews 18
• Van Reimsdyk 27
• Kadri 25
• Nylander 20
• Marner 19
• Bozak 30

When Carolina switched from 9 consecutive playoff misses to 6 consecutive playoff appearances, these were theirs

• Aho 21
• Teravainen 23
• Williams 36
• Ferland 26
• Svechnikov 18
• Neiderreiter 25

Colorado

• MacKinnon 22
• Rantanen 20
• Landeskog 24
• Kerfoot 23
• Soderberg 31
• Comeau 31

New Jersey's leap 2 years ago

• Hughes 21
• Hischier 23
• Bratt 24
• Mercer 20
• Tatar 31
• Haula 31

This is how the Sabres compare

• Tuch 28
• Thompson 26
• Peterka 22
• Cozens 23
• Quinn 22
• Benson 19

If you want to follow in the footsteps of those teams, age should not be an excuse anymore. If our guys are going to be good enough, they're old enough to show it.

[Thorner]

15 hours ago, Taro T said:

Byram had been good in every stop except Buffalo.  And he was good here for about a week before he got a chance to get a few practices under his belt.  Expecting him to have a much better season than he had after that 1st week in town.

He was poor all of last year not just in Buffalo, should be mentioned 

- - - 

The put up or shut up vibes are *awfully* similar to what we said last offseason just ftr 

I don’t expect the narrative would change much if we miss this year 

The time to put up or shut up isn’t now: it’s already passed. Right now the name of the game is salvaging a playoff spot 

On 9/20/2023 at 7:36 AM, dudacek said:

It's time for the Sabres to expect to be there again. Finally.
And to believe they can do something once they get there.

-Mike Harrington

https://buffalonews.com/sports/columns/mike-harrington-its-time-for-sabres-to-perform-with-swagger-thats-been-missing-for-too/article_7cc6f64c-5651-11ee-9d77-a7d6efede8b8.html

 

As training camp opens, this is the proper tone. End the decade of despair.

No more building and waiting and hoping for someone from the outside or something in the future to save us. And this goes for the fans as much as the players.

Expect to win.

It’s time to be good again.

 

 

Edited September 21 by Thorner

[PerreaultForever]

54 minutes ago, Thorner said:

He was poor all of last year not just in Buffalo, should be mentioned 

- - - 

The put up or shut up vibes are *awfully* similar to what we said last offseason just ftr 

I don’t expect the narrative would change much if we miss this year 

The time to put up or shut up isn’t now: it’s already passed. Right now the name of the game is salvaging a playoff spot 

 

That's pretty much how I feel. I think this is Adam's time to put up or shut up or more specifically I think if this season fails he gets canned. What happens then idk. Start all over again again, I have no idea. If Lindy can't get it done who can? This team should have been better so many times before but it has always fallen apart for one or more reasons. If these players cannot elevate and gel and become something now then they most likely never will. 

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's pretty much how I feel. I think this is Adam's time to put up or shut up or more specifically I think if this season fails he gets canned. What happens then idk. Start all over again again, I have no idea. If Lindy can't get it done who can? This team should have been better so many times before but it has always fallen apart for one or more reasons. If these players cannot elevate and gel and become something now then they most likely never will. 

No you can’t start all over again. That’s what got us into this mess 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Quote

Ruff attributed that less to the new defensive systems in place and more to the players having the attention to detail and focus away from the puck. Ruff noticed some frustration from the offensive players, especially early in the scrimmage.

If this becomes how the team plays all year, we are all going to be very happy Sabres fans.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5782938/2024/09/21/sabres-training-camp-byram-reimer-2024/  
 

Quote

 

But Reimer is also on a one-way contract, which means that salary is guaranteed even if he’s in the AHL. That salary would increase the odds that Reimer could pass through waivers unclaimed, but that’s dependent on the goalie situation around the NHL. If injuries leave a few teams in need of goalies, Reimer would be in demand after posting a .904 save percentage and 3.11 goals-against average in 25 appearances for Detroit last season. That’s also what made him a necessary addition for Buffalo. If Levi is still not ready for full-time NHL action or if one of Levi or Luukkonen misses time due to injury, having an experienced goalie like Reimer is a nice insurance plan.

 

What do you think the plan is if Reimer gets claimed or even traded.  Sandstrom is probably fine as an AHL goalie and rare NHL callup.  Houser is the 5th goalie right now, but 4th if Reimer is moved or leaves.  Is this good enough insurance without Reimer?

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I respect this view too, but you can't really compare what the Sabres are trying to do with the majority of playoff teams

This is not a contender looking to add a missing piece, or an established team trying to hold on to a playoff spot, or climb back into one. This is a downtrodden franchise attempting to rebuild from within with youth.

Who has had success with that method and what did they look like?

When Toronto took its step from doormat to perennial contender, these were the ages of its 6 highest-scoring forwards

• Matthews 18
• Van Reimsdyk 27
• Kadri 25
• Nylander 20
• Marner 19
• Bozak 30

When Carolina switched from 9 consecutive playoff misses to 6 consecutive playoff appearances, these were theirs

• Aho 21
• Teravainen 23
• Williams 36
• Ferland 26
• Svechnikov 18
• Neiderreiter 25

Colorado

• MacKinnon 22
• Rantanen 20
• Landeskog 24
• Kerfoot 23
• Soderberg 31
• Comeau 31

New Jersey's leap 2 years ago

• Hughes 21
• Hischier 23
• Bratt 24
• Mercer 20
• Tatar 31
• Haula 31

This is how the Sabres compare

• Tuch 28
• Thompson 26
• Peterka 22
• Cozens 23
• Quinn 22
• Benson 19

If you want to follow in the footsteps of those teams, age should not be an excuse anymore. If our guys are going to be good enough, they're old enough to show it.

Good post and interesting data. It supports why I am at least somewhat equivocal in my view on this. Indeed, it could work out.
 

That said, a couple questions to consider:

- Three of those teams had a 1st overall generational or bordering on generational talent in their forward group, and the one that didn’t had Aho. Who in our group would you compare to Matthews, Aho, Mackinnon or Hughes (or Marner or Rantanan for that matter)?
- How many teams in the same period dressed a similar group of young forwards (by age if not talent) and did not get in the playoffs?  I can think of two off the top of my head, the 22-23 and 23-24 Sabres.  

I’m not letting the players off the hook entirely. If we don’t make it this year though, the bulk of my frustration will be with the people in charge. We have cap space and assets to ice a better and more talented team and have chosen not to. Like a classroom that is out of control, at some point it isn’t the kids.  

Edited September 21 by Archie Lee