GDT: Buffalo Sabres vs Pittsburgh Penguins (Prospect Challenge) 9/16/24, 5:00 pm

[Flashsabre]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I only saw the second half but that looked like Sabres hockey. Fast and skilled but soft with multiple defensive breakdowns. We need more defensive prospects. Same players were the best players and are the only ones with a chance to crack the roster.

Pittsburgh on the other hand has some nice prospects that look more like NHL bound. idk who this Hayes guy is but he's headed for the NHL at some point almost certainly. 

 

You have to remember that this tournament doesn’t represent all the prospects. Big D men like Kleber and Strabk are at college.

They have enough size on the backend in the system. They need to add more size and tenacity up front.

Hayes is a nice player. He was a free agent from the OHL. Plays with a chip on his shoulder.

Östlund is going to need a few years in Rochester to pack on weight. He was always a long term project.

Helenuis looks like he will be a player sooner rather than later. Reminds me a lot of Peca without the open ice hits. He will get his nose dirty though.

I thought both goalies let the team down in the games I watched.

[Ctaeth]

48 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

He looked good, though.

I agree with this.  Didn't see this past one vs the Pens, but he jumped off the screen in the first two games (was on the second line with Helenius and Wahlberg).  Really solid play despite playing out of position and being used to the bigger ice surface in SHL.  He had a few chances of his own and was setting up his two line mates for a few chances that they didn't finish.  Even though the points didn't come, it's apparent from watching him that he can think the game / play the at a higher level.  Is it high enough to make up for his physical limitations?  Who knows.  But I would expect a really good year from him in the AHL, he's going to be a gamer for sure.

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Looking at the box scores, Östlund finished the Prospects Tournament with 0 points. 

As a 20yo taken 16th overall, you'd hope to see him somewhere in the Kulich / Rosen ballpark. 

I didn't watch a lot of the games, but when I did Kulich and to a lesser extent Rosen jumped off the page.

What's the deal with Östlund? 

Good example of the box score not telling the whole story.

Popped to me. Wrote about him in the previous game thread.

Was better than Rosen over the 2 games I watched closely. (Today’s I watched more with one eye.)

I did see him get robbed by the save of the tourney on a breakaway and get snuffed on a one-timer from the right dot today though. In earlier games I watched him set up Helenius and Wahlberg for fantastic chances they failed to convert.

He was generally the fastest, most active skater on the ice, always in motion, always around the puck. Forechecks and back checks hard and looks elite as a puck tracker. Not at all afraid of contact.

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't see him in the NHL unless he puts on some major weight and muscle. He will not break through an NHL defense the way he plays. 

 

He has NHL skating, hands, hockey sense and effort. 

There is certainly question about how good an NHL player he will be at his size.

What do Kailer Yamamoto or Tyler Ennis, to name two players of smaller stature, have or do that he does not?

Edited September 17 by dudacek

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Good example of the box score not telling the whole story.

Popped to me. Wrote about him in the previous game thread.

Was better than Rosen over the 2 games I watched closely. (Today’s I watched more with one eye.)

I did see him get robbed by the save of the tourney on a breakaway and get snuffed on a one-timer from the right dot today though. In earlier games I watched him set up Helenius and Wahlberg for fantastic chances they failed to convert.

He was generally the fastest, most active skater on the ice, always in motion, always around the puck. Forechecks and back checks hard and looks elite as a puck tracker. Not at all afraid of contact.

 

He has NHL skating, hands, hockey sense and effort. 

There is certainly question about how good an NHL player he will be at his size.

What do Kailer Yamamoto or Tyler Ennis, to name to players of smaller stature, have or do that he does not?

Sounds good.

Given the low level of competition, I'd have liked to see at least a PPG, even with bad luck. Small sample size though.

Kulich in comparison had 6pts which seems more appropriate for the level of competition.

If Östlund jumped off the page eye test wise that's at least some good news.

Edited September 17 by JoeSchmoe

[Two or less]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Good example of the box score not telling the whole story.

Popped to me. Wrote about him in the previous game thread.

Was better than Rosen over the 2 games I watched closely. (Today’s I watched more with one eye.)

I did see him get robbed by the save of the tourney on a breakaway and get snuffed on a one-timer from the right dot today though. In earlier games I watched him set up Helenius and Wahlberg for fantastic chances they failed to convert.

He was generally the fastest, most active skater on the ice, always in motion, always around the puck. Forechecks and back checks hard and looks elite as a puck tracker. Not at all afraid of contact.

 

He has NHL skating, hands, hockey sense and effort. 

There is certainly question about how good an NHL player he will be at his size.

What do Kailer Yamamoto or Tyler Ennis, to name to players of smaller stature, have or do that he does not?

 

Not that you need anyone to vouch but i agree with everything you said here. To me he was one of the best forwards and his skating and hockey sense stood out to me as well. I posted that in the CBJ thread.

That said, i thought the tournament overall was underwhelming for the Sabres. Lots of possession, but rarely did much with it. Kulich couldve had several more goals vs CBJ and Helenius missed that empty net but there was a lot of shots on net but not the best quality. Defense was a mess all tournament, a lot of giveaways in their zone, both goalies struggled i thought too. 

Besides Kulich, i thought the other skilled forwards played soft. There was no net front presence all weekend unless it was Tullio or Cheveldayoff from the fourth line.

 

[Two or less]

5 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Wahlberg is even bigger up close 

Damn

 

btw, amazing photo!

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

You have to remember that this tournament doesn’t represent all the prospects. Big D men like Kleber and Strabk are at college.

They have enough size on the backend in the system. They need to add more size and tenacity up front.

Hayes is a nice player. He was a free agent from the OHL. Plays with a chip on his shoulder.

Östlund is going to need a few years in Rochester to pack on weight. He was always a long term project.

Helenuis looks like he will be a player sooner rather than later. Reminds me a lot of Peca without the open ice hits. He will get his nose dirty though.

I thought both goalies let the team down in the games I watched.

Agree with all this except the Peca comparison. Don't see that at all.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Good example of the box score not telling the whole story.

Popped to me. Wrote about him in the previous game thread.

Was better than Rosen over the 2 games I watched closely. (Today’s I watched more with one eye.)

I did see him get robbed by the save of the tourney on a breakaway and get snuffed on a one-timer from the right dot today though. In earlier games I watched him set up Helenius and Wahlberg for fantastic chances they failed to convert.

He was generally the fastest, most active skater on the ice, always in motion, always around the puck. Forechecks and back checks hard and looks elite as a puck tracker. Not at all afraid of contact.

 

He has NHL skating, hands, hockey sense and effort. 

There is certainly question about how good an NHL player he will be at his size.

What do Kailer Yamamoto or Tyler Ennis, to name two players of smaller stature, have or do that he does not?

Not much. Yamamoto's on a PTO. 

Honestly I'd like to have a team that Tyler Ennis couldn't play on. But we shall see. We might end up with a place for one or two little guys, but I kind of hope not. 

[bob_sauve28]

 

[Flashsabre]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Agree with all this except the Peca comparison. Don't see that at all.

Peca could be used in any situation. Up a goal down a goal, defensive zone faceoff, offensive face off. PP, PK, smart hockey player. Helenuis is similar. He won’t run a guy over in open ice like Peca but he is a centre you can use in every situation. That’s the comparison I was making.

[Doohicksie]

12 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

13 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Looking at the box scores, Östlund finished the Prospects Tournament with 0 points. 

As a 20yo taken 16th overall, you'd hope to see him somewhere in the Kulich / Rosen ballpark. 

I didn't watch a lot of the games, but when I did Kulich and to a lesser extent Rosen jumped off the page.

What's the deal with Östlund? 

He looked good, though.

Östlund may have suffered from small sample size.  It was only 3 games after all.  Maybe if they played 3 more he's score 4 points.  You don't know.

[Doohicksie]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

(Today’s I watched more with one eye.)

[dudacek]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not much. Yamamoto's on a PTO. 

Honestly I'd like to have a team that Tyler Ennis couldn't play on. But we shall see. We might end up with a place for one or two little guys, but I kind of hope not. 

I think he has a better game than both those guys.

I was mostly honing in on the “won’t be in the NHL” comment, but it sounds more like it’s more philosophical for you than anything. My own bias is smart guys who work hard, and Östlund is that, with a high skill level too.

He doesn’t tick the big and mean boxes, but he sure ticks a lot of other ones.

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I only saw the second half but that looked like Sabres hockey. Fast and skilled but soft with multiple defensive breakdowns. We need more defensive prospects. Same players were the best players and are the only ones with a chance to crack the roster.

Pittsburgh on the other hand has some nice prospects that look more like NHL bound. idk who this Hayes guy is but he's headed for the NHL at some point almost certainly. 

The Sabres brought 7 defenders in for this: 

Simon Pier-Brunet, No. 43, Jack Bodin, No. 65, Ryan Johnson, No. 33, Vsevolod Komarov, No. 76, Noah Laaouan, No. 46, Nikita Novikov, No. 91, Norwin Panocha, No. 74

I put in bold the players Buffalo drafted or are "in the system" so to speak. That is 5 players we drafted and it leaves out the following defenders that Buffalo has drafted but were not here: Adam Kleber (2nd), Luke Osburn (4th), Patrick Geary (6th), Maxim Strbak (2nd), Gavin McCarthy (3rd), Sean Keohane (6th). Buffalo had an entire 2nd defense that simply wasn't here. So no they don't need more defensive prospects. Kleber, Strbak, and McCarthy are all hard players with NHL shots and would have easily made the prospect team better. Considering the injuries the prospect team had at defense, not much of a surprise with the outcome of the final, but it was a fun game. 

The bolded pitts comment to me is just bizarre. "Look more like NHL bound" as opposed to who? Kulich, Helenius, Novikov, Komarov, Wahlberg, Östlund, Johnson? It is strange you pick out Avery when I thought Tullio and Avery played somewhat similar games. On the Pens roster, Beck, Broz, Howe, Koivunen, Yager, Brunicke and Pickering are probably NHL players at some point, not sure how many stick but could say the same for Buffalo. "Pittsburgh on the other hand..." just makes it sound like you watched an entirely different game than I did. These looked like a pre-season prospects tournament with lots of mistakes and breakdowns across the board and on both sides. I didn't a see a Pitt team that was some more physical than Buffalo. 

Bottom line, you can't draw too much from a prospects tournament. I remember several years ago Metaj Pekar was the darling of one of these because he was feisty and hit stuff, he was never heard from again. 

 

 

[Stoner]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Bottom line, you can't draw too much from a prospects tournament. I remember several years ago Metaj Pekar was the darling of one of these because he was feisty and hit stuff, he was never heard from again. 

 

 

You don't say.

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not much. Yamamoto's on a PTO. 

Honestly I'd like to have a team that Tyler Ennis couldn't play on. But we shall see. We might end up with a place for one or two little guys, but I kind of hope not. 

Did you know that the Florida Panthers had 5 players that were 5'11" or shorter and one that was 5'9"? Evan Rodrigues had 15pts in 24 playoff games at 5'11" 174lbs. 

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

You have to remember that this tournament doesn’t represent all the prospects. Big D men like Kleber and Strabk are at college.

They have enough size on the backend in the system. They need to add more size and tenacity up front.

Hayes is a nice player. He was a free agent from the OHL. Plays with a chip on his shoulder.

Östlund is going to need a few years in Rochester to pack on weight. He was always a long term project.

Helenuis looks like he will be a player sooner rather than later. Reminds me a lot of Peca without the open ice hits. He will get his nose dirty though.

I thought both goalies let the team down in the games I watched.

Not really no. This is the worst narrative on this board and it gets repeated ad nauseam. The tenacity part is just flat out ***** tbh. Which of these players are not tenacious? Helenius, Östlund, Ziemer, Benson, Wahlberg, Kulich? What about Poltapov? Size in the modern NHL is about leverage and using leverage to get inside on players. We need to stop equating size with tenacity or toughness or grit or whatever other word we are using. Who is a more tenacious player? Owen Power or Zach Benson? 

[bob_sauve28]

51 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Östlund may have suffered from small sample size.  It was only 3 games after all.  Maybe if they played 3 more he's score 4 points.  You don't know.

He was fast, that’s for sure. Missed two breakaways 

[LGR4GM]

Quote

5. The two Russian defensemen, Nikita Novikov and Vsevolod Komarov, are going to be fun to watch in Rochester this season. Both are willing to engage physically between the whistles and after the whistle. They were the two routinely sticking up for teammates and making sure the Sabres weren’t getting pushed around. Novikov probably has the higher upside of the two because of his passing and skating ability. Komarov’s competitiveness, quick decision making and physicality are what make those who have coached him think he’s a future NHLer. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5772403/2024/09/17/sabres-rookie-camp-jiri-kulich/?source=emp_shared_article

[Flashsabre]

45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Not really no. This is the worst narrative on this board and it gets repeated ad nauseam. The tenacity part is just flat out ***** tbh. Which of these players are not tenacious? Helenius, Östlund, Ziemer, Benson, Wahlberg, Kulich? What about Poltapov? Size in the modern NHL is about leverage and using leverage to get inside on players. We need to stop equating size with tenacity or toughness or grit or whatever other word we are using. Who is a more tenacious player? Owen Power or Zach Benson? 

I wasn’t saying we don’t have players with tenacity. The Sabres prospect pool could use a few prospects up front with a size-tenacity combination. 

[...]

56 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Who is a more tenacious player? Owen Power or Zach Benson? 

That's pretty easy: Benson was definitely a more tenacious player than Power last season. That's the entire reason everyone loves Benson and half the Sabres fans think Power is overrated and overpaid.

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Not really no. This is the worst narrative on this board and it gets repeated ad nauseam. The tenacity part is just flat out ***** tbh. Which of these players are not tenacious? Helenius, Östlund, Ziemer, Benson, Wahlberg, Kulich? What about Poltapov? Size in the modern NHL is about leverage and using leverage to get inside on players. We need to stop equating size with tenacity or toughness or grit or whatever other word we are using. Who is a more tenacious player? Owen Power or Zach Benson? 

100%.  So many examples of smaller players making an impact in the NHL  but totally ignored by many on this board

 not the size of the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog....or something like that 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think he has a better game than both those guys.

I was mostly honing in on the “won’t be in the NHL” comment, but it sounds more like it’s more philosophical for you than anything. My own bias is smart guys who work hard, and Östlund is that, with a high skill level too.

He doesn’t tick the big and mean boxes, but he sure ticks a lot of other ones.

Small guys need a tenacity that I just don't see. Now he's young and he can grow and develop and evolve in a direction where he finds a way, so you never give up at this age, but for the moment I don't see it. Benson, you could see pretty quickly that here was a smaller guy who plays hard and has this squat low presence where he could evolve into a Fleury or a St. Louis and definitely be an NHL star even. Östlund isn't anything like that.

But give it time. Things can change. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres brought 7 defenders in for this: 

Simon Pier-Brunet, No. 43, Jack Bodin, No. 65, Ryan Johnson, No. 33, Vsevolod Komarov, No. 76, Noah Laaouan, No. 46, Nikita Novikov, No. 91, Norwin Panocha, No. 74

I put in bold the players Buffalo drafted or are "in the system" so to speak. That is 5 players we drafted and it leaves out the following defenders that Buffalo has drafted but were not here: Adam Kleber (2nd), Luke Osburn (4th), Patrick Geary (6th), Maxim Strbak (2nd), Gavin McCarthy (3rd), Sean Keohane (6th). Buffalo had an entire 2nd defense that simply wasn't here. So no they don't need more defensive prospects. Kleber, Strbak, and McCarthy are all hard players with NHL shots and would have easily made the prospect team better. Considering the injuries the prospect team had at defense, not much of a surprise with the outcome of the final, but it was a fun game. 

The bolded pitts comment to me is just bizarre. "Look more like NHL bound" as opposed to who? Kulich, Helenius, Novikov, Komarov, Wahlberg, Östlund, Johnson? It is strange you pick out Avery when I thought Tullio and Avery played somewhat similar games. On the Pens roster, Beck, Broz, Howe, Koivunen, Yager, Brunicke and Pickering are probably NHL players at some point, not sure how many stick but could say the same for Buffalo. "Pittsburgh on the other hand..." just makes it sound like you watched an entirely different game than I did. These looked like a pre-season prospects tournament with lots of mistakes and breakdowns across the board and on both sides. I didn't a see a Pitt team that was some more physical than Buffalo. 

Bottom line, you can't draw too much from a prospects tournament. I remember several years ago Metaj Pekar was the darling of one of these because he was feisty and hit stuff, he was never heard from again. 

 

 

The one sentence I fully agree with is the last one. It's just a prospects tournament and ultimately doesn't mean that much. 

Still, certain guys can pop out for you and others just look like prospects, maybe yes, maybe no, needs work overall. Kulich obviously will press for an NHL spot and if he doesn't make it should be a star in Rochester. Nobody else jumped out for me as a guy even who has everything but one missing thing, in pother words close. The D was especially not impressive and I found Johnson to be disappointing. He's not ready. Will he ever be? No idea, but he's not ready now. 

The thing about having a prospect pool is it doesn't matter how large it is, what matters is if you can graduate 1 or 2 a year to keep the age of your team from getting too old. You don't need a lot of prospects, you just need the ones that can fill any holes you have on the roster. If we run into injury trouble we have 1 guy who might be NHL ready, Kulich. Everything else will be a drop off. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Did you know that the Florida Panthers had 5 players that were 5'11" or shorter and one that was 5'9"? Evan Rodrigues had 15pts in 24 playoff games at 5'11" 174lbs. 

Ya E-Rod was pretty amazing wasn't he? Where'd he start his career, I forget...........

Little guys can function when either they are tenacious and strong (Benson) or they are surrounded with a tough support system. You really want to argue that E-Rod would have been as effective on the Sabres as he was between Bennett and Tkachuk?