Sabres on notice and everybody knows it

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What material?  His tweets?  The one you posted upthread doesn't say this.  Nor does anything he's posted in this thread.

If you've got something in which he says words to the effect of "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" -- let's see it.  Not an absence of "anything to the contrary" -- something that affirmatively says what you claim he says.

Or, even better -- let's just ask him!  @PromoTheRobot -- is this an accurate synopsis of your view?

You are professionally, willfully obtuse with your postings to me. The essence of what I am saying is that his stance is, “fans are dumb and stupid for thinking better is possible.” That’s really all he talks about. How dumb the fans are 

52 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You want Terry to do what exactly? Do the Walk of Shame down Washington? Spend money? On what exactly? Players? They have to want to sign here. New coaches? Done. New GM? Okay, why not. Changing regimes...again...definitely won't make it even harder to sign players.

The truth is if you ever want the Sabres to turn it around, they better do it with the people and players they have now.

If you don’t think THIS (and the tweets) qualifies as “fans are stupid for thinking better is possible. Just shut up.” you literally aren’t reading 

“what could Terry have even done”

He is SAYING that literally. That meme I joke about, he actually said it. “What do you want Terry to do exactly?” The implication is it is beyond his control. It’s not even an implication, it’s stated outright 

If YOU’VE got something, that proves he thinks otherwise, you post it. Burden of proof is on you. Every post he makes I’ve seen has that tone 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Cascade Youth]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What material?  His tweets?  The one you posted upthread doesn't say this.  Nor does anything he's posted in this thread.

If you've got something in which he says words to the effect of "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" -- let's see it.  Not an absence of "anything to the contrary" -- something that affirmatively says what you claim he says.

Or, even better -- let's just ask him!  @PromoTheRobot -- is this an accurate synopsis of your view?

He has been blaming the fans for years, on both here and TSW, both Sabres and Bills fans.  Maybe he directs his anger at the fans instead of the teams because he feels that it's something he has more control over/access to - there isn't a forum the owners and GMs peruse where you can direct your anger at them.  I don't know.  But it's always been his schtick, forever.  It hasn't changed and there's ample record of it.

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

He has been blaming the fans for years, on both here and TSW, both Sabres and Bills fans.  Maybe he directs his anger at the fans instead of the teams because he feels that it's something he has more control over/access to - there isn't a forum the owners and GMs peruse where you can direct your anger at them.  I don't know.  But it's always been his schtick, forever.  It hasn't changed and there's ample record of it.

It’s me. It’s because I made the argument 

or, he can admit he doesn’t read the board he moderates. One of the 2

Should be noted that every tweet I posted was from 2024. I didn’t cherry pick. Not even close. I didn’t dig deep. I typed his username and “fans” into twitter. It goes on like that, for decades.

i can post more. I didn’t want to. I don’t want to post more. But if the board isn’t being read I’ll post from external 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You are professionally, willfully obtuse with your postings to me. The essence of what I am saying is that his stance is, “fans are dumb and stupid for thinking better is possible.” That’s really all he talks about. How dumb the fans are 

If you don’t think THIS (and the tweets) qualifies as “fans are stupid for thinking better is possible. Just shut up.” you literally aren’t reading 

“what could Terry have even done”

He is SAYING that literally. That meme I joke about, he actually said it. “What do you want Terry to do exactly?” The implication is it is beyond his control. It’s not even an implication, it’s stated outright 

The argument is a lot like political debates. Without picking a side, you create a problem and then you bitch about the problem being a problem. The Sabres were not a team that people didn't want to come to before Terry bought it so if any of them make the argument that it's hard to make the Sabres better because people don't want to come it's a self fulfilling one. 

[Thorny]

More people know Promo’s schtik (great word) is being anti-fan than that the Sabres are on notice

Everyone certainly knows THAT 

[nfreeman]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It’s me. It’s because I made the argument 

or, he can admit he doesn’t read the board he moderates. One of the 2

Should be noted that every tweet I posted was from 2024. I didn’t cherry pick. Not even close. I didn’t dig deep. I typed his username and “fans” into twitter. It goes on like that, for decades.

i can post more. I didn’t want to. I don’t want to post more. But if the board isn’t being read I’ll post from external 

FFS.  What is the point of having a conversation if you freak out whenever someone disagrees with you?

Again:  I said that PTR hasn't said "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert."

You insist that PTR has said exactly that -- but when pressed for an example, you respond with a bunch of tweets that don't say that, but rather that "PTR has been criticizing the fans for years."

That is NOT the same thing.

(NB that I don't like "ha ha, some fans are so dumb" either -- and I've criticized one poster here in particular whose bread and butter was that type of statement, repeated ad nauseum.)

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

FFS.  What is the point of having a conversation if you freak out whenever someone disagrees with you?

Again:  I said that PTR hasn't said "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert."

You insist that PTR has said exactly that -- but when pressed for an example, you respond with a bunch of tweets that don't say that, but rather that "PTR has been criticizing the fans for years."

That is NOT the same thing.

(NB that I don't like "ha ha, some fans are so dumb" either -- and I've criticized one poster here in particular whose bread and butter was that type of statement, repeated ad nauseum.)

Lmao! Yes. He didn’t say the literal exact words. What are we even doing here man

every, single, solitary tweet I posted is imbibed with the fact he thinks the fans are dumb, specifically for expecting better. He literally says it time and time again. “Dumb for expecting better” AKA “be happy with what we have”. Im not LITERALLY using happiness in the sense of “oh he thinks fans should be jumping for joy.” Who would possibly think that? My contention, which I already reiterated to you upon request, is that his stance is “fans are stupid for thinking better is possible. Just shut up.”

I’ve proven he thinks that. HE IS TAKING ISSUE WITH FANS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE 14 YEARS WHEN HE SAYS THOSE THINGS. He is literally saying the fans are wrong to be complaining. Po’d. Choose any word you like 

good god man 

Are you going to double down again? You are wrong. I can do this all day 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Cascade Youth]

 On 4/21/2017 at 12:23 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

How long has there been a "fire Bylsma" thread here? How about a thread questioning Murray? The owner does what we want and he's the bad guy. I feel bad for the Pegulas because all they wanted is to do something nice for the "long suffering fans of WNY" and all they get in return are people s##ting on them.

 

Terry should just sell the teams to owners that would move them far away. It's the only way to end this madness.

 

On 12/31/2016 at 4:22 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If I'm Terry I sell both teams and leave town. Who needs this aggravation?

 

OM-frickin-G. Please construct one of those push-pin-and-yarn charts showing how Russ is the reason this team can't win. I'm dying to see that explained.

 

On 7/7/2022 at 8:17 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

Okay. They did bad for 11 years. What would you like then to do now? Fire Adams and Granato? Fire sale the players? Sell the team? Will that please you?

What are you going to do once the Sabres are good again? Why are you even here if the Sabres are so unbearable? Do you not watch the games? Do you get mad when they win?

 

On 9/29/2023 at 8:05 PM, PromoTheRobot said: 

After all these years you don't know me very well. If all I was worried about was losing money why would I have stayed a STH through the 12 year crapfest? 

My worry isn't selling my tickets, it's about ensuring the Sabres stay in Buffalo. I get the sense that several of you take great pleasure in seeing this team do poorly at the box office, but how would you feel if the Sabres left town? Won't happen, you say? I never take anything for granted with local teams. This franchise is too valuable elsewhere. And if we can't be bothered to buy NHL tickets for $33, who will shed a tear over the Houston or Atlanta Sabres?

 

[That Aud Smell]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Are you going to double down again? You are wrong. I can do this all day 

you're gonna make the man say it, aren't you?

#thisisobnoxious

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

you're gonna make the man say it, aren't you?

#thisisobnoxious

Oh yes 

4 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

 

 

 

Yes but did he say the EXACT words? Mmmmmm? 

[nfreeman]

26 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Lmao! Yes. He didn’t say the literal exact words. What are we even doing here man

every, single, solitary tweet I posted is imbibed with the fact he thinks the fans are dumb, specifically for expecting better. He literally says it time and time again. “Dumb for expecting better” AKA “be happy with what we have”. Im not LITERALLY using happiness in the sense of “oh he thinks fans should be jumping for joy.” Who would possibly think that? My contention, which I already reiterated to you upon request, is that his stance is “fans are stupid for thinking better is possible. Just shut up.”

I’ve proven he thinks that. HE IS TAKING ISSUE WITH FANS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE 14 YEARS WHEN HE SAYS THOSE THINGS. He is literally saying the fans are wrong to be complaining. Po’d. Choose any word you like 

good god man 

Are you going to double down again? You are wrong. I can do this all day 

I have no doubt that you can claim, all day, to have proven something that you haven't proven, and pepper those claims with lols and lmaos. 

No one is saying that you are wrong if PTR didn't use the exact words "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" -- that's why I used the formulation "to the effect of".

It is the CONCEPT that "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" that I haven't seen PTR say -- including in the posts that you copied, and claimed that they supported your statement that "this is absolutely his stance."  Again -- that concept is different from "some fans are so dumb."

Now, I will admit that a couple of the quotes that @Cascade Youth posted come closer to implying this -- but I think they are also fairly able to be interpreted otherwise.

[Thorny]

I honestly give up 

You do not think his endless suggestion the fans are “stupid” for thinking better is possible (the context of the tweets) is analogous to saying fans shouldn’t be complaining about things not being better

whatever lol 

that you think cascade’s quotes are closer is definitive proof of your absurd bias towards me. Block me please. Or ban me if you won’t stop responding to my posts with your drivel 

so tired of being strong armed by a “moderator” who follows me around spouting objectively incorrect nonsense just to disagree with me 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Thorny]

@PromoTheRobotdo you believe the fans are wrong to say the owner has failed us and we should expect better? That we should be grateful to have a team at all? 

ain’t no way I’ve followed your twitter for years to have you let me down on this one. 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Cascade Youth]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

@PromoTheRobotdo you believe the fans are wrong to claim we should have expected better during this regime, that the owner has failed us? That we should be grateful to have a team at all? 

ain’t no way I’ve followed your twitter for years to have you let me down on this one. 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:30 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

And you were expecting what? The playoffs? Calling out a lack of success when a team is rebuilding is the weakest move. Yes. They aren't winning. They explained they weren't going to be winning right away. And yet...

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there’s sort of an undeniable truth at play here that demonstrably shows it’s both, re: the bold.

There are plenty of teams that spend and don’t win, sure: so that proves you need to be making wise moves and not just moves. That part is true.

But the statistics illustrate that there’s a certain point where a lack of spending gets extremely prohibitive to winning. GMs navigating all the normal issues of building a competitive nhl rAHster appear nearly incapable in recent times of assembling said level of quality you speak of if they find themselves with a bottom 10 allotment in league spending. There results are just there, the data is there: only 2 teams in bottom 10 in payroll made the playoffs the last decade.

That’s 2/160. That’s 0.01%. Zero point zero one percent of playoff teams in the last decade spent as we are 

Do playoffs seem like a reasonable goal if you enter into the season under those parameters? I DOUBLE DOG dare anyone to answer that honestly 

You have to spend a certain amount, and you have to spend it reasonably. Spending a small amount reasonably isn’t enough - it’s not a viable strategy if the goal is playoffs 

The bolded is true.  But there is one thing that MIGHT work in the Sabres favor (presuming Adams doesn't manage to get one more deal done before they head off to Europe) is that darn near nobody has tried this current approach (bring a bunch of guys up very young and get them all used to playing together and playing at NHL speed getting through to that 1st 200 NHL game threshold while the majority of them are still barely legal to drink if they even are with most of them on ELCs & 2nd/bridge contracts) which is essentially testing a theory that it's games played rather than physical maturity that gets a guy to his "prime" level of play.  Nobody else tries it because you almost definitely guarantee yourself a lot of losing seasons getting a critical mass of talented bodies to that 200 game threshold.  And a lot of losing necessarily means less fannies in the seats and less concessions and merchandise sold and most owners don't have the hubris to try to ride through all the growing pains.  (Most fans don't either.)  But Adams & Pegula seem to have had the hubris to see if it legitimately can work when run to it's conclusion.  (Those young guys actually getting en masse to & beyond those thresholds.)

The cursory view of it says it can't work without nearly everything falling into place because it's only been done extremely rarely in the past decade.  That's probably where the smart money should be too.

But this team is built significantly differently than other teams have been, so they might not necessarily align with the normal metrics.  AND should they bring in a 2W/2C in the next few weeks, the team will be outside those normal metrics anyway.

They need Ruff to be A right coach for this squad and they need the goaltending to be what it was overall post January (and ideally what UPL was in January and what Levi was down the stretch which would be even better than that) to realistically have a shot at the playoffs.  But if both of those bets pay off, they don't need all that many more of the variables to fall their way to make the playoffs.  (in no particular order, good health, obtaining that 2W/2C, guys getting back to their 2023 levels, Byram being the guy he was in the playoffs, the PP being what it should be now that Ellis can't warp it, the new guys fitting in and gelling together, Power elevating towards being a legit #2, Quinn & Benson not having "sophomore" slumps (sophomore in quotes because last year was Quinn's sophomore year but he missed most of it, guys relearning how to play for a coach who expects them to follow the system he has picked out for them over TC rather than October & November, winning the Euro series w/ Joisey to kickstart the year.)  Get about 1/2 of those to go their way and they should be in good shape, even possibly with a relatively low payroll.

Personally, still expect that Adams true target for really excelling is next year and thereafter.  But if the team ends up where it did last year (seriously doubt it will, but we'll see, there's a reason they play the games), doubt he gets the chance to make it to that target.  And do believe that he is targeting playoffs for this season.  (He targeted them last year as well, but misjudged just how far a young 91 point team really is from the playoffs.)

[That Aud Smell]

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

that you think cascade’s quotes are closer is definitive proof of your absurd bias towards me. Block me please. Or ban me if you won’t stop responding to my posts with your drivel 

so tired of being strong armed by a “moderator” who follows me around spouting objectively incorrect nonsense just to disagree with me 

thought you were gonna bring balance to sabrespace - not leave it in darkness

[Thorny]

34 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The bolded is true.  But there is one thing that MIGHT work in the Sabres favor (presuming Adams doesn't manage to get one more deal done before they head off to Europe) is that darn near nobody has tried this current approach (bring a bunch of guys up very young and get them all used to playing together and playing at NHL speed getting through to that 1st 200 NHL game threshold while the majority of them are still barely legal to drink if they even are with most of them on ELCs & 2nd/bridge contracts) which is essentially testing a theory that it's games played rather than physical maturity that gets a guy to his "prime" level of play.  Nobody else tries it because you almost definitely guarantee yourself a lot of losing seasons getting a critical mass of talented bodies to that 200 game threshold.  And a lot of losing necessarily means less fannies in the seats and less concessions and merchandise sold and most owners don't have the hubris to try to ride through all the growing pains.  (Most fans don't either.)  But Adams & Pegula seem to have had the hubris to see if it legitimately can work when run to it's conclusion.  (Those young guys actually getting en masse to & beyond those thresholds.)

The cursory view of it says it can't work without nearly everything falling into place because it's only been done extremely rarely in the past decade.  That's probably where the smart money should be too.

But this team is built significantly differently than other teams have been, so they might not necessarily align with the normal metrics.  AND should they bring in a 2W/2C in the next few weeks, the team will be outside those normal metrics anyway.

They need Ruff to be A right coach for this squad and they need the goaltending to be what it was overall post January (and ideally what UPL was in January and what Levi was down the stretch which would be even better than that) to realistically have a shot at the playoffs.  But if both of those bets pay off, they don't need all that many more of the variables to fall their way to make the playoffs.  (in no particular order, good health, obtaining that 2W/2C, guys getting back to their 2023 levels, Byram being the guy he was in the playoffs, the PP being what it should be now that Ellis can't warp it, the new guys fitting in and gelling together, Power elevating towards being a legit #2, Quinn & Benson not having "sophomore" slumps (sophomore in quotes because last year was Quinn's sophomore year but he missed most of it, guys relearning how to play for a coach who expects them to follow the system he has picked out for them over TC rather than October & November, winning the Euro series w/ Joisey to kickstart the year.)  Get about 1/2 of those to go their way and they should be in good shape, even possibly with a relatively low payroll.

Personally, still expect that Adams true target for really excelling is next year and thereafter.  But if the team ends up where it did last year (seriously doubt it will, but we'll see, there's a reason they play the games), doubt he gets the chance to make it to that target.  And do believe that he is targeting playoffs for this season.  (He targeted them last year as well, but misjudged just how far a young 91 point team really is from the playoffs.)

Good post.

Of course Adams is “targeting” playoffs, but it remains “playoffs, while spending less”, and therein lies the rub. To make the playoffs, the priority almost always needs to be “playoffs.” That is assuredly not the case, right now.

As you mentioned, his “true” target is probably next year. Do you think Terry will loosen the budget constraints by that time? If so, then I think it would be reasonably stated to say their goal would be “playoffs” next season. As, it would no longer be about “winning, but only while spending less.”

Hope they get in this year ahead of schedule then, so I’m around to see it

I agree though: it’s unlikely for a team with this payroll to make it this year but it’s not impossible: you point out some good things to hope for 

29 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

thought you were gonna bring balance to sabrespace - not leave it in darkness

I tried 

I failed.

From my point of view the Sabres are evil!

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

34 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I honestly give up 

You do not think his endless suggestion the fans are “stupid” for thinking better is possible (the context of the tweets) is analogous to saying fans shouldn’t be complaining about things not being better

whatever lol 

that you think cascade’s quotes are closer is definitive proof of your absurd bias towards me. Block me please. Or ban me if you won’t stop responding to my posts with your drivel 

so tired of being strong armed by a “moderator” who follows me around spouting objectively incorrect nonsense just to disagree with me 

Who is "following you around?"  This misbegotten exchange started when you responded to my post.

[spndnchz]

I’m gonna make me an Earl Grey and sit back. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Good post.

Of course Adams is “targeting” playoffs, but it remains “playoffs, while spending less”, and therein lies the rub. To make the playoffs, the priority almost always needs to be “playoffs.” That is assuredly not the case, right now.

As you mentioned, his “true” target is probably next year. Do you think Terry will loosen the budget constraints by that time? If so, then I think it would be reasonably stated to say their goal would be “playoffs” next season. As, it would no longer be about “winning, but only while spending less.”

Hope they get in this year ahead of schedule then, so I’m around to see it

I agree though: it’s unlikely for a team with this payroll to make it this year but it’s not impossible: you point out so good things to hope for 

I tried 

Personally, believe the budget constraints have already been lifted, but then read a post like @Brawndo's implying that Adams had a deal for Zegras worked out and Pegula nixed it and realize that belief could be seriously off-base.  But also, kind of personally need to believe the constraints are off, because otherwise this whole thing just gets too exhausting.  And life in general lately is exhausting enough.  This is supposed to be the entertainment / relaxation portion of the day.

Am really tired of being left at the end of the day with "it could work."  So, please make that one more move and come out of Europe 1st in the Adams (old school Adams, not Kevyn's personal 1 team league 😉 ) and build on it from there.  Because if they go on an early season Kreugeresque campaign, doubt that the metrics won't be backing the fact that it's real.  And this place could be really fun should that happen.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

I’m gonna make me an Earl Grey and sit back. 

This one might be worth the dispensation to go back to bourbon just this one time.  😉 

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Personally, believe the budget constraints have already been lifted, but then read a post like @Brawndo's implying that Adams had a deal for Zegras worked out and Pegula nixed it and realize that belief could be seriously off-base.  But also, kind of personally need to believe the constraints are off, because otherwise this whole thing just gets too exhausting.  And life in general lately is exhausting enough.  This is supposed to be the entertainment / relaxation portion of the day.

Am really tired of being left at the end of the day with "it could work."  So, please make that one more move and come out of Europe 1st in the Adams (old school Adams, not Kevyn's personal 1 team league 😉 ) and build on it from there.  Because if they go on an early season Kreugeresque campaign, doubt that the metrics won't be backing the fact that it's real.  And this place could be really fun should that happen.

I understand the need to pretend the contraints are gone but like, if we look at the data, it’s pretty obvious they are not. I can’t really argue against the position of “I understand we always don’t spend, but maybe it’s just a coincidence.” If the data illustrating to a fact that we aren’t spending isn’t enough to prove we aren’t spending, there’s no argument I can make that meets your criteria 

There is no card I can play beyond pointing out the fact of the matter that we aren’t spending 

At least, you can probably appreciate: it comes to the same thing, if we aren’t spending it, no matter who made the call - Blame Terry, blame KA, someone made the choice

hell, blame me 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

I’m gonna make me an Earl Grey and sit back. 

Thread more so makes me feel like I’m drinking Grey Poupon 

[Thorny]

Should be noted I partook in all of this while paying 5 bucks for this much Thai noodle salad

now THAT’S obnoxious 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I understand the need to pretend the contraints are gone but like, if we look at the data, it’s pretty obvious they are not. I can’t really argue against the position of “I understand we always don’t spend, but maybe it’s just a coincidence.” If the data illustrating to a fact that we aren’t spending isn’t enough to prove we aren’t spending, there’s no argument I can make that meets your criteria 

There is no card I can play beyond pointing out the fact of the matter that we aren’t spending 

At least, you can probably appreciate: it comes to the same thing, if we aren’t spending it, no matter who made the call - Blame Terry, blame KA, someone made the choice

hell, blame me 

Easy there, that's PTR's schtick.  😉 

 

But back on point, yeah, it looks like they won't spend once again, but there's still time for that to merely be appearance and not reality.  The Aisles grabbed both Boychuk and Leddy essentially out of thin air right before the season kicked off the year the Sabres had their pick lined up to be unprotected.

They absolutely were still a discount team last year.  But, until the season kicks off and Terry pulls that football away at the last second am going to maintain hope that 2W is just a few weeks away.