Sabres on notice and everybody knows it

[mjd1001]

8 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Is this true? Cripes. I have little (no) interest in re-opening the Meddling Thread. I'd just inferred that he'd taken steps back from directly managing all sports operations, but perhaps he views the Sabres as something he's still capable of dealing with more directly?

But that theory dovetails with ... is it @LGR4GM's proposition? ... that Terry and KA are essentially one person. That Terry hired KA to spy on and report back regarding what was going wrong in the Sabres FO of days past, and that Terry thereafter installed KA -- who had no credentials whatsoever -- as a direct extension of himself as Sabres GM.

Man. Just when I thought I could not feel any worse about the upcoming season.

you fuggin muhfugger. that's funny.

Maybe he has taken a step back, but even if that is true, there still might be the reputation that is lingering that he hasn't...and of course once someone has the history of doing it at all, I would assume an potential candidates to come here might wonder if he will start again.

So, maybe he has gotten better, but it might always be a lingering issue for some.

I do almost totally agree with Terry hiring Kevin because he would be a 'yes man' of sort. He would not offend Terry, He would make him feel involved. I really believe that part to be true.  Now that doesn't make me feel hopeless about the upcoming season. Other than the first 2 games against New Jersey in Europe, I'm looking forward to it. Even if Adams is a 'yes man', he still is more involved in the day-to-day than Terry so EVENTUALLY some good decisions will be made.   

Its just after all these years, I still Think Pegula is a bad owner, he is bad for the success of the teams he owns...his saving grace in football is when you buy enough lottery tickets, EVENTUALLY even a bad owner will win with a good QB.

Edited September 10 by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. You seem convinced that spending more money solves all the Sabres problems. Elite players will line up to come to Buffalo because the Pegula bucks are flowing freely. What does that get you? 

Massive profits? Hardly. Buffalo fans think $30 is too much to see the team. The undying appreciation of SabreSpace? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Increased franchise value? The value of the Sabres did okay despite a 12 year playoff drought. Winning a cup likely wouldn't add a nickel in value because the Sabres worth is relative to rest of the league. 

And we are permanently locked at #30 in that rank because of the market: Buffalo.

So other than having another winning franchise, which I do think is the goal, there isn't much else you get from being a winner. The asset increases in value but you don't realize that value until it's sold.

Now let's say it's another bad year. Terry finally decides he's had enough and wants to cash out and just focus on the Bills and Bandits. Who is going to pay likely over $800MM for this team? Who's going to pony up that kind of dough for a middling team in one of the NHL's least attractive markets? Oh, plus the arena needs another $300MM-$400MM in improvements on top of that. I'm sure the line of interested buyers will stretch around the block. 🙄

But keep telling yourself the Sabres will never leave.

 

So your counter argument is I need to think of Terry Pegula's massive fortune and how spend 5-7million more bucks a year might impact it? That's what you got. Dude, you can shill for the org all you want. You are selling but I ain't buying. 

and again FTR, I think the Sabres as currently constructed could make the playoffs. The margin error though is razor thin and adding another 5million dollar player would certainly shore up the team. There's still time but I refuse to buy into the "be happy you have a team and think of Terry's children's fortune!" type of argument. 

Also Bettman doesn't want to relocate teams, he wants expansion teams in Atlanta and wherever the other place was. 

Edited September 10 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Yup, nothing from a winner. Except the oodles of added income playoff games would draw, games in which you do not pay your players 

But, other than that.. 

 

lol

- - -

NARRATOR: “everyone in fact did NOT know the Sabres were on notice”  

the fans are on notice!

Was it you or someone else that ran the math and teams that are in the bottom 10 of spending have only made the playoffs like once in the last decade or something?

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Was it you or someone else that ran the math and teams that are in the bottom 10 of spending have only made the playoffs like once in the last decade or something?

I haven’t run that math or indeed run anywhere anytime recently but I’ve alluded to it and posted links! Haha. It’s been posted a bunch around here, or some iteration of it. I think it’s like 2 teams in the last while. Brawndo most recently posted it IIRC. I’ll find it 

[Thorner]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:15 PM, Brawndo said:

The counter argument to this is this will be the first season the Sabres will not be in the bottom five in terms of spending, they will be 6th from the bottom. 
They were 32nd in spending two seasons ago when they missed the playoffs by one win. Since the stated goal coming the front office began last year they have been 29th in total spending and will be 27th this season after Boston signs Swayman and Detroit sign Seider and Raymond. The two seasons that the stated goal of the organization has been the playoffs they have so far left over 18 million dollars in unspent cap space. As Tom mentioned there was at least one deal in place that the owner squashed. This seems to be a deliberate plan from ownership. 
 

Only two teams have made the playoffs in the past decade that have been the the bottom ten of league spending. They are Carolina a few ago and Washington last season. You cannot win in the NHL without spending close to the cap, the analytics department, Karmanos, Adams all know this. Adams not being able to convince Pegula to do what is necessary is one of his biggest failures as a GM. 

“Everything the Pegula’s Touch turns to sh!t and the entire NHL knows it” this is from a well respected member of a NHL Front Office that Sabres Fans would love to have in the organization.

Joshua Patrick Allen is the principal reason. Having a legitimate superstar as the QB in a league that prints money goes along way. 

 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I haven’t run that math or indeed run anywhere anytime recently but I’ve alluded to it and posted links! Haha. It’s been posted a bunch around here, or some iteration of it. I think it’s like 2 teams in the last while. Brawndo most recently posted it IIRC. I’ll find it 

Of course it was Brawndo 

See bold 

Teams with serious playoff aspirations don’t spend as we do. It’s just a fact: if someone doesn’t agree they can argue with a literal wall 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Maybe he has taken a step back, but even if that is true, there still might be the reputation that is lingering that he hasn't...and of course once someone has the history of doing it at all, I would assume an potential candidates to come here might wonder if he will start again.

So, maybe he has gotten better, but it might always be a lingering issue for some.

I do almost totally agree with Terry hiring Kevin because he would be a 'yes man' of sort. He would not offend Terry, He would make him feel involved. I really believe that part to be true.  Now that doesn't make me feel hopeless about the upcoming season. Other than the first 2 games against New Jersey in Europe, I'm looking forward to it. Even if Adams is a 'yes man', he still is more involved in the day-to-day than Terry so EVENTUALLY some good decisions will be made.   

Its just after all these years, I still Think Pegula is a bad owner, he is bad for the success of the teams he owns...his saving grace in football is when you buy enough lottery tickets, EVENTUALLY even a bad owner will win with a good QB.

plenty of bad people and bad owners have won when the stars aligned for them. Just like teams have won with bad goalies,  or without franchise centres, or overwhelming speed or toughness.

There is no magic formula, it’s all about lining up as many pieces as possible in your favour and then executing while getting the proper bounces.

Pegula it appears will always be an anchor, therefore you need a GM who can manage Pegula in the way Beane and McDermott apparently can and Murray and Botterill could not.

Kevyn’s ability to get along with Pegula should not be discounted as a plus, and neither should his seeming ability to install a working environment that his employees seem to like despite Pegula’s capricious ownership.

But all that is wasted if he lacks the ability to acquire and develop talent on and off the ice.

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

[PromoTheRobot]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't care whether the Sabres play in a gilded new arena or an antiquated eye sore of a facility. The adequacy of a facility isn't the issue. That issue is a distraction from the disgusting reality that the Sabres under Pegula's tenure have been a failure for almost a generation. If the owner can't even meet the bare minimum of qualifying for the playoffs in a generation, then it's time to sell, take your profits and get out of the hockey business. This never-ending cycle of unceasing failure is ridiculous. By all account Terry Pegula is a hands-on owner. He is responsible for its failure. Either get serious or get out!

That isn't the owners responsibility. That's the job of his GM and coaches. And as far as I know there is no NHL bylaw that says owners have to make the playoffs or else sell the team. 

I get that everyone wants to start over with a new owner. Someone rich who will throw money at the Sabres and hire the best and biggest names to run the team. The only people who would do that AND keep the team in Buffalo are folks like Terry Pegula, someone with a long history of Sabres fandom. But someone would have to be really rich. So rich that tying up a billion dollars in an asset that generates a small profit in its best years is no big deal. Yes the franchise value increases but our new wonderful winning owner won't want to sell, right?

Any Sabres sale opens a door we may not like. 

Edited September 10 by PromoTheRobot

[Stoner]

33 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

That isn't the owners responsibility. That's the job of his GM and coaches. And as far as I know there is no NHL bylaw that says owners have to make the playoffs or else sell the team. 

I get that everyone wants to start over with a new owner. Someone rich who will throw money at the Sabres and hire the best and biggest names to run the team. The only people who would do that AND keep the team in Buffalo are folks like Terry Pegula, someone with a long history of Sabres fandom. But someone would have to be really rich. So rich that tying up a billion dollars in an asset that generates a small profit in its best years is no big deal. Yes the franchise value increases but our new wonderful winning owner won't want to sell, right?

Any Sabres sale opens a door we may not like. 

And what door did the last sale open?

[nfreeman]

If I had to guess, I think TP's current mindset on the Sabres is something like the following:

- I tried keeping on the GM and coach that I inherited, and giving the GM a blank check, and even urging him to throw money at top UFAs -- because I saw that prior ownership refused to spend money on UFAs, or even on keeping our own players -- and that didn't work.

- I tried hiring 2 GMs, in Tim Murray and Jason Botteril, that were recommended to me by the NHL as young up-and-comers, and I gave them blank checks too, and they hired experienced coaches and up-and-comers, and none of that worked either.  And not only did it not work, it was embarrassing -- the first GM was drunk and ill-tempered in public and traded for a bunch of head cases, and the 2nd guy tried to ice a good team, immediately finished DFL, got bent over in a number of trade and FA contracts and hired a coach who'd been out of the NHL and out of North America for 6 years and who, unsurprisingly, delivered a complete debacle.

- Those losers, combined with my big spending, resulted in me losing something like $30MM to $50MM per year -- and then Covid hit, which caused even bigger losses.  Then my franchise player demanded a trade.

- So, with everything falling apart, I decided to have KA, whom I like and trust, and who has been around the NHL for a long time in a number of different roles, run the team and at least get us through the turbulence. 

- KA told me, and I believe, that the atmosphere around the team, and the team's reputation around the NHL, had become toxic, and a full rebuild was needed.  The team would be built around draft picks and young players with great "want to be here" attitudes and high levels of competitiveness.  This was pretty reminiscent of McDermott's and Beane's approaches to the Bills, which has paid off handsomely.

- I told KA to give it one more shot with Ralph Krueger and Jack Eichel, and if it didn't work, KA could implement his rebuild.  2020-21 made it clear that what we had wasn't going to work, and Eichel was still insisting on being traded, so in the summer of 2021, I gave KA the green light to trade Eichel and do a full rebuild.

- I also told him that since we were rebuilding with young players and weren't going to attract any good free agents, that there was no need for me to lose $32MM per year instead of $25MM per year, so he should stay $7MM or so below the cap unless a really good opportunity presented itself.  In the meantime, though, if KA thinks any of our guys is worthy of a big, long-term extension, he has my blessing to lock that guy up -- which we've done with a number of guys.

- Those are still my marching orders to KA -- i.e. he can spend if he thinks we'll get good bang for the buck.  Hopefully Lindy will get us back to the playoffs this year and off of most FAs' NFW lists, so maybe we'll get a good FA next summer.  In the meantime I'm expecting to give out a couple of additional long-term contracts to some of our younger guys.  I'm also enjoying the Bills, which is a model NFL franchise, and my daughter's tennis career, while KA takes the slings and arrows from the SabreSpace nut cases.

[calti]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:33 PM, LGR4GM said:

If they don't make the playoffs, I hope Pegula sells the team. Teams a freaking joke with all their talk of could have would have should have. 

Piss or gtfo.

I think the possible 'clashes' betw   Lindy and this soft team could be very entertaining .  Lets hope its resolved early in the season though.

[JohnC]

42 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

That isn't the owners responsibility. That's the job of his GM and coaches. And as far as I know there is no NHL bylaw that says owners have to make the playoffs or else sell the team. 

I get that everyone wants to start over with a new owner. Someone rich who will throw money at the Sabres and hire the best and biggest names to run the team. The only people who would do that AND keep the team in Buffalo are folks like Terry Pegula, someone with a long history of Sabres fandom. But someone would have to be really rich. So rich that tying up a billion dollars in an asset that generates a small profit in its best years is no big deal. Yes the franchise value increases but our new wonderful winning owner won't want to sell, right?

Any Sabres sale opens a door we may not like. 

What are you talking about? You didn't understand what I posted. For the past decade and beyond, this team has been an unmitigated failure on the ice. The lagging performance of this team has corresponded with his tenure. That's an incontrovertible fact! This very involved owner did much of the hiring for the critical positions. Are you suggesting that the owner didn't make the decision to hire Krueger? Are you making the claim that he wasn't the most instrumental person for the major staff hirings? If you are, you are wrong.

Again, you are missing the central point. Money isn't the main reason why the franchise has stalled for such an extended period. It's not about spending money on players as it is about wisely spending money for players to build a competitive roster. It's bad hirings and subsequent inordinate number of bad decisions that has kept this so long irrelevant franchise stuck in the muck of generational mediocrity. It starts at the top. No more excuses!

 

[PromoTheRobot]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What are you talking about? You didn't understand what I posted. For the past decade and beyond, this team has been an unmitigated failure on the ice. The lagging performance of this team has corresponded with his tenure. That's an incontrovertible fact! This very involved owner did much of the hiring for the critical positions. Are you suggesting that the owner didn't make the decision to hire Krueger? Are you making the claim that he wasn't the most instrumental person for the major staff hirings? If you are, you are wrong.

Again, you are missing the central point. Money isn't the main reason why the franchise has stalled for such an extended period. It's not about spending money on players as it is about wisely spending money for players to build a competitive roster. It's bad hirings and subsequent inordinate number of bad decisions that has kept this so long irrelevant franchise stuck in the muck of generational mediocrity. It starts at the top. No more excuses!

 

All that can be true. It doesn't force Terry to sell. There is no White Knight owner waiting in the wings.

[Thorner]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What are you talking about? You didn't understand what I posted. For the past decade and beyond, this team has been an unmitigated failure on the ice. The lagging performance of this team has corresponded with his tenure. That's an incontrovertible fact! This very involved owner did much of the hiring for the critical positions. Are you suggesting that the owner didn't make the decision to hire Krueger? Are you making the claim that he wasn't the most instrumental person for the major staff hirings? If you are, you are wrong.

Again, you are missing the central point. Money isn't the main reason why the franchise has stalled for such an extended period. It's not about spending money on players as it is about wisely spending money for players to build a competitive roster. It's bad hirings and subsequent inordinate number of bad decisions that has kept this so long irrelevant franchise stuck in the muck of generational mediocrity. It starts at the top. No more excuses!

 

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there’s sort of an undeniable truth at play here that demonstrably shows it’s both, re: the bold.

There are plenty of teams that spend and don’t win, sure: so that proves you need to be making wise moves and not just moves. That part is true.

But the statistics illustrate that there’s a certain point where a lack of spending gets extremely prohibitive to winning. GMs navigating all the normal issues of building a competitive nhl rAHster appear nearly incapable in recent times of assembling said level of quality you speak of if they find themselves with a bottom 10 allotment in league spending. There results are just there, the data is there: only 2 teams in bottom 10 in payroll made the playoffs the last decade.

That’s 2/160. That’s 0.01%. Zero point zero one percent of playoff teams in the last decade spent as we are 

Do playoffs seem like a reasonable goal if you enter into the season under those parameters? I DOUBLE DOG dare anyone to answer that honestly 

You have to spend a certain amount, and you have to spend it reasonably. Spending a small amount reasonably isn’t enough - it’s not a viable strategy if the goal is playoffs 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Kevyn’s ability to get along with Pegula should not be discounted as a plus, and neither should his seeming ability to install a working environment that his employees seem to like despite Pegula’s capricious ownership.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

All that can be true. It doesn't force Terry to sell. There is no White Knight owner waiting in the wings.

How much are you willing to pay for a holographic Charizard? I’m putting together some funds…

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

plenty of bad people and bad owners have won when the stars aligned for them. Just like teams have won with bad goalies,  or without franchise centres, or overwhelming speed or toughness.

There is no magic formula, it’s all about lining up as many pieces as possible in your favour and then executing while getting the proper bounces.

Pegula it appears will always be an anchor, therefore you need a GM who can manage Pegula in the way Beane and McDermott apparently can and Murray and Botterill could not.

Kevyn’s ability to get along with Pegula should not be discounted as a plus, and neither should his seeming ability to install a working environment that his employees seem to like despite Pegula’s capricious ownership.

But all that is wasted if he lacks the ability to acquire and develop talent on and off the ice.

I can discount it as a plus to the extent he can work with him because he agrees with him 

Part and parcel, say it all the time 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there’s sort of an undeniable truth at play here that demonstrably shows it’s both, re: the bold.

There are plenty of teams that spend and don’t win, sure: so that proves you need to be making wise moves and not just moves. That part is true.

But the statistics illustrate that there’s a certain point where spending gets extremely prohibitive to winning. GMs navigating all the normal issues of building a competitive nhl rAHster appear nearly incapable in recent times of assembling said level of quality you speak of if they find themselves with a bottom 10 allotment in league spending. There results are just there, the data is there: only 2 teams in bottom 10 in payroll made the playoffs the last decade.

You have to spend a certain amount, and you have to spend it reasonably. Spending a small amount reasonably isn’t enough - it’s not a viable strategy if the goal is playoffs 

This offseason really ticked me off. I thought the GM with the influence of Ruff did well in reconstituting the lower lines. The team's roster is now better structured. On the other hand, with the dispatching of Mitts there was a hole in the second line that needed to be addressed. I wasn't looking for a blockbuster deal or an overly rich contract for a FA or in a trade acquisition. It didn't happen. I find that disappointing. For a team that has been lagging for so long I thought the owner and front office would have demonstrated more urgency in getting better. 

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

All that can be true. It doesn't force Terry to sell. There is no White Knight owner waiting in the wings.

My basic point about this particular owner is that during his tenure his team's record is a beyond being disappointing. The measurement is basic: the team's W/L record. He needs to show more urgency in making this team more competitive. It's inexcusable that in a sport that has a cap system that the team that he presides over continues to be stuck for nearly a generation. That's unacceptable. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

My basic point about this particular owner is that during his tenure his team's record is a beyond being disappointing. The measurement is basic: the team's W/L record. He needs to show more urgency in making this team more competitive. It's inexcusable that in a sport that has a cap system that the team that he presides over continues to be stuck for nearly a generation. That's unacceptable. 

Did he not hire a new coach with vast experience and a history with the franchise?

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Did he not hire a new coach with vast experience and a history with the franchise?

Do you believe having the head coaching position staffed and not left vacant offsets the fact we will be bottom 10 in spending and those teams are exceptionally unlikely to make the playoffs? 

Do you believe they feel the 2/160 designator is irrelevant, that they have as good a chance as anyone else even though we are spending less? 

Or do you believe the goal is to make the playoffs in some other future year?

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Did he not hire a new coach with vast experience and a history with the franchise?

There is not one franchise in the league that wouldn't have made a coaching team in the situation that the Sabres were in. If you count that typical transaction that every franchise in the league would have made as exhibiting urgency, then we have different standards in judging actions. 

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is not one franchise in the league that wouldn't have made a coaching team in the situation that the Sabres were in. If you count that typical transaction that every franchise in the league would have made as exhibiting urgency, then we have different standards in judging actions. 

You want Terry to do what exactly? Do the Walk of Shame down Washington? Spend money? On what exactly? Players? They have to want to sign here. New coaches? Done. New GM? Okay, why not. Changing regimes...again...definitely won't make it even harder to sign players.

The truth is if you ever want the Sabres to turn it around, they better do it with the people and players they have now.

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

“well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert."  I don't think anyone feels that way, including @PromoTheRobot.

This is absolutely his stance

I mean, read the material. Read even a portion of it. He never suggests anything to the contrary 

“this is the best it can be, support it. Fans are wrong and deluded to criticize.” 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[#freejame]

It would genuinely mean a lot to me if Terry Pegula did a presser in which he acknowledged the struggles the Sabres have had since his ownership began. He doesn’t even have to go in-depth with his thoughts and feelings, nor does he need to apologize.
 

“I understand that the last 13 years have been incredibly trying for Sabres fans. Never did I imagine this would be the situation the organization finds itself in over a decade after I took over. Our front office has my full support financially. I can assure you this will still be hockey heaven, full of Stanley Cups. I thank you for your undying support. No questions.”

[nfreeman]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is absolutely his stance

I mean, read the material. Read even a portion of it. He never suggests anything to the contrary 

“this is the best it can be, support it. Fans are wrong and deluded to criticize.” 

What material?  His tweets?  The one you posted upthread doesn't say this.  Nor does anything he's posted in this thread.

If you've got something in which he says words to the effect of "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" -- let's see it.  Not an absence of "anything to the contrary" -- something that affirmatively says what you claim he says.

Or, even better -- let's just ask him!  @PromoTheRobot -- is this an accurate synopsis of your view?

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What material?  His tweets?  The one you posted upthread doesn't say this.  Nor does anything he's posted in this thread.

If you've got something in which he says words to the effect of "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert" -- let's see it.  Not an absence of "anything to the contrary" -- something that affirmatively says what you claim he says.

Or, even better -- let's just ask him!  @PromoTheRobot -- is this an accurate synopsis of your view?

Lmao. I did ask him. He won’t respond because he knows he can’t. How about these tweets: