Sabres on notice and everybody knows it

[PromoTheRobot]

33 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Sabres aren’t leaving Buffalo.

“Be happy with a bad team or else” is a boogeyman 

It’s sort of the Last Desperate Argument of the “it’s actually ok we’ve been historically bad under this putrid owner for a generation” side of things.

“At least we have a team at all, right? Don’t rock the boat, it could be worse. Stay in line, eyes to the ground.” 

Such hubris. Let's hope you're right. But those billion dollar arenas going up in places like Atlanta with no actual promise of a team aren't there for decoration. And Utah just broke the relocation seal. The league isn't going to sit there and tolerate sub-10K crowds forever.

 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

Such hubris. Let's hope you're right. But those billion dollar arenas going up in places like Atlanta with no actual promise of a team aren't there for decoration. And Utah just broke the relocation seal. The league isn't going to sit there and tolerate sub-10K crowds forever.

 

Maybe the ***** owner should spend to the cap and put a decent product on the ice? There's an idea. You listening Terry? I ain't giving you $#!t of my money until you actually run a real hockey team instead of your "gotta support that Yacht life" discount AHL team you got going. 

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Maybe the ***** owner should spend to the cap and put a decent product on the ice? There's an idea. You listening Terry? I ain't giving you $#!t of my money until you actually run a real hockey team instead of your "gotta support that Yacht life" discount AHL team you got going. 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. You seem convinced that spending more money solves all the Sabres problems. Elite players will line up to come to Buffalo because the Pegula bucks are flowing freely. What does that get you? 

Massive profits? Hardly. Buffalo fans think $30 is too much to see the team. The undying appreciation of SabreSpace? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Increased franchise value? The value of the Sabres did okay despite a 12 year playoff drought. Winning a cup likely wouldn't add a nickel in value because the Sabres worth is relative to rest of the league. 

And we are permanently locked at #30 in that rank because of the market: Buffalo.

So other than having another winning franchise, which I do think is the goal, there isn't much else you get from being a winner. The asset increases in value but you don't realize that value until it's sold.

Now let's say it's another bad year. Terry finally decides he's had enough and wants to cash out and just focus on the Bills and Bandits. Who is going to pay likely over $800MM for this team? Who's going to pony up that kind of dough for a middling team in one of the NHL's least attractive markets? Oh, plus the arena needs another $300MM-$400MM in improvements on top of that. I'm sure the line of interested buyers will stretch around the block. 🙄

But keep telling yourself the Sabres will never leave.

 

Edited September 10 by PromoTheRobot

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Such hubris. Let's hope you're right. But those billion dollar arenas going up in places like Atlanta with no actual promise of a team aren't there for decoration. And Utah just broke the relocation seal. The league isn't going to sit there and tolerate sub-10K crowds forever.

 

I don't care whether the Sabres play in a gilded new arena or an antiquated eye sore of a facility. The adequacy of a facility isn't the issue. That issue is a distraction from the disgusting reality that the Sabres under Pegula's tenure have been a failure for almost a generation. If the owner can't even meet the bare minimum of qualifying for the playoffs in a generation, then it's time to sell, take your profits and get out of the hockey business. This never-ending cycle of unceasing failure is ridiculous. By all account Terry Pegula is a hands-on owner. He is responsible for its failure. Either get serious or get out!

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Sabres aren’t leaving Buffalo.

“Be happy with a bad team or else” is a boogeyman

If Terry were to sell, a relocation would be a distinct possibility.

That goes for both franchises.

@PromoTheRobot is substantially correct to note how other cities/municipal areas --  ones that are much larger, much more monied -- are chomping at the bit to get in on more pro sports action.

Lord, I love Buffalo. But Buffalo's position within these crony capitalist ecosystems is tenuous.

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

If Terry were to sell, a relocation would be a distinct possibility.

That goes for both franchises.

@PromoTheRobot is substantially correct to note how other cities/municipal areas --  ones that are much larger, much more monied -- are chomping at the bit to get in on more pro sports action.

Lord, I love Buffalo. But Buffalo's position within these crony capitalist ecosystems is tenuous.

Boogeyman. Even Arizona had to be pried out over decades

- - - 

Regardless, you’ve ignored the fundamental aspect of my argument which is the disingenuousness of the stance. “Be happy with a bad team or else”.

no thanks 

If you don’t think Promo isn’t continuously putting the onus on the fans, the fact they “aren’t showing up”, you aren’t familiar with his postings 

heck, ask him yourself 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Thorner]

55 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Such hubris. Let's hope you're right. But those billion dollar arenas going up in places like Atlanta with no actual promise of a team aren't there for decoration. And Utah just broke the relocation seal. The league isn't going to sit there and tolerate sub-10K crowds forever.

 

It’s not so much hubris as the fact I legitimately do not believe we would ever lose the team, in combination with the fact that, if it somehow came to that, it would indeed still be preferable to supporting an inept franchise that *literally* insults the intelligence of the fanbase by not even spending close to the cap, forever.

they can fix the product. If they can’t, I can live with what happens 

[Thorner]

48 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. You seem convinced that spending more money solves all the Sabres problems. Elite players will line up to come to Buffalo because the Pegula bucks are flowing freely. What does that get you? 

Massive profits? Hardly. Buffalo fans think

 

It’s not so much that spending automatically solves the team’s problems: it’s that we know to a near *certainty* that teams that don’t spend will struggle. What we are doing doesn’t even represent a college try. Not spending to the cap, or close to, and operating in this way every year, is in fact a declaration winning isn’t the primary goal. This is because, well, they aren’t stupid: they can run the numbers, they understand teams that spend the way we do almost never make the playoffs.

It’s going on 14 years, they KNOW it’s going on 14 years, and they aren’t making a true effort to make the playoffs. It’s…probably the most insulting behaviour in pro sports towards a fanbase by a franchise I’ve seen. At least first hand. And “they aren’t amendable to the full 13 years” need not apply.

A) it does for Terry

b)they are fully aware they are operating on behalf of a fanbase living in that reality (and therefore have to factor fan revolt into an accurate calculation)

c)MERELY the current regime is well past its best before date re:making the playoffs so they’d be amendable to not spending to the cap even if the drought was just going on 5 years instead of 14

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Thorner]

54 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. You seem convinced that spending more money solves all the Sabres problems. Elite players will line up to come to Buffalo because the Pegula bucks are flowing freely. What does that get you? 

Massive profits? Hardly. Buffalo fans think $30 is too much to see the team. The undying appreciation of SabreSpace? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Increased franchise value? The value of the Sabres did okay despite a 12 year playoff drought. Winning a cup likely wouldn't add a nickel in value because the Sabres worth is relative to rest of the league. 

And we are permanently locked at #30 in that rank because of the market: Buffalo.

So other than having another winning franchise, which I do think is the goal, there isn't much else you get from being a winner. The asset increases in value but you don't realize that value until it's sold.

Now let's say it's another bad year. Terry finally decides he's had enough and wants to cash out and just focus on the Bills and Bandits. Who is going to pay likely over $800MM for this team? Who's going to pony up that kind of dough for a middling team in one of the NHL's least attractive markets? Oh, plus the arena needs another $300MM-$400MM in improvements on top of that. I'm sure the line of interested buyers will stretch around the block. 🙄

But keep telling yourself the Sabres will never leave.

 

Yup, nothing from a winner. Except the oodles of added income playoff games would draw, games in which you do not pay your players 

But, other than that.. 

 

lol

- - -

NARRATOR: “everyone in fact did NOT know the Sabres were on notice”  

the fans are on notice!

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

24 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Even Arizona had to be pried out over decades

Because the NHL covets that market and its money like a motherfu**er. They’ll probably end up putting a team back there.

26 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Regardless, you’ve ignored the fundamental aspect of my argument which is the disingenuousness of the stance. “Be happy with a bad team or else”.

no thanks 

I did indeed ignore it. I wasn’t speaking to it. And I’m still not.

[That Aud Smell]

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If you don’t think Promo isn’t continuously putting the onus on the fans, the fact they “aren’t showing up”, you aren’t familiar with his postings 

heck, ask him yourself 

I know firsthand how this region responds to a good NHL hockey team. 

My point is: If the building was substantially sold out for every game, and the Sabres were a perennial playoff team, the franchise would still be at significant risk of being relocated because there’s much more money to be made elsewhere.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. You seem convinced that spending more money solves all the Sabres problems. Elite players will line up to come to Buffalo because the Pegula bucks are flowing freely. What does that get you? 

Massive profits? Hardly. Buffalo fans think $30 is too much to see the team. The undying appreciation of SabreSpace? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Increased franchise value? The value of the Sabres did okay despite a 12 year playoff drought. Winning a cup likely wouldn't add a nickel in value because the Sabres worth is relative to rest of the league. 

And we are permanently locked at #30 in that rank because of the market: Buffalo.

So other than having another winning franchise, which I do think is the goal, there isn't much else you get from being a winner. The asset increases in value but you don't realize that value until it's sold.

Now let's say it's another bad year. Terry finally decides he's had enough and wants to cash out and just focus on the Bills and Bandits. Who is going to pay likely over $800MM for this team? Who's going to pony up that kind of dough for a middling team in one of the NHL's least attractive markets? Oh, plus the arena needs another $300MM-$400MM in improvements on top of that. I'm sure the line of interested buyers will stretch around the block. 🙄

But keep telling yourself the Sabres will never leave.

 

I kinda agree.

Overall we can complain about the taxes and other costs in the area, but WNY has stabilized the population drop, some years and in some areas it actually grows.  I looks like Syracuse is getting a TON of high tech money (Micron) and some of that may spill over a bit to the west with smaller related businesses (not a lot, but some I hope).  Western NY/Buffalo has become, and is continuing to become a nice place to live for a lot of us.

HOWEVER, Billionaire sports team owners (and aspiring owners) don't care at all about it being a 'nice place to live', or about how much us members of a message board love the team.  Other areas are growing fast, MUCH faster (probably too fast in terms of them being a nice place to live), but with that really fast growth comes a lot of money to be made from owners of franchises.  

We can only hope any future owners of the team are involved in buying it because they were a fan of the actual team, because other than that, almost ANYONE who buys a team is going to buy it to simply be a pro team owner, or to 'join that exclusive club', and there really would be no reason for them to keep the team here compared to moving it to a market where they could print (even) more money and have the local government build them a brand new palace just to show up with the team.

As far as the Bills go, they really should have done a much better job of reaching out to the GTA to try to get even 1-2% more of that are to be hard core bills fans, get even a few companies/corporations feel welcome in the stadium.  It wasn't a mistake to TRY to reach out to Toronto a Decade or so ago, that is what they should have done, they just did a really REALLY bad job of doing it.

The Sabres could and should be doing the same. Not with Toronto directly (the Leafs won't like that, there may be rules against it, AND you aren't going to change any Leafs fans to Sabres fans), but they can be doing a LOT more with Niagara Falls, St. Catherines, Welland, maybe even this side of Hamilton: Play a preseason game in Hamilton EVERY year and not against the Leafs (market it as an affordable way to see NHL players). Get Marty and Duff to do a remote or two across the border (they are both Canadiens, aren't they?)  Make sure every Sabres game is available on TV to everyone across the border (maybe hard to do, but find a way to make it work). Have a 'Canada' night at the arena (free poutine sampls and nothing on the scoreboard but clips from Strange Brew and Kims Convenience). Stuff like that.  I don't know how much can be done, but I don't really see them trying at all.

Edited September 10 by mjd1001

[DarthEbriate]

1 minute ago, That Aud Smell said:

Because the NHL covets that market and its money like a motherfu**er. They’ll probably end up putting a team back there.

Maybe it'll be the Sabres.

 

You can make a ton more money in the merchandise/other sales category when your team is going to the playoffs each year, as well. Or if you're the must-see attraction for opponents' fans. Being relevant means you draw both home and away.

And if the Sabres, particularly GMKA, had invested in a starting goaltender since losing Miller, they wouldn't be going on 14 years without playoffs. Lehner was playoff-capable, but self-defeating, and the roster was still in tank-recovery. But if they had extended Ullmark before his UFA, or traded for or signed a real UFA starting goalie instead of retired Anderson/not-ready Luukkonen, they'd have been in the playoffs handily in 2022-23. Next season, Luukkonen will be the first starting salary goalie they've rostered in 7 seasons.

[#freejame]

Capitalism has changed a great deal over the last two decades. There is little room for sentiment in these leagues anymore. As PE continues to make head roads in on these leagues, there will be many unthinkable things being thought in the name of the almighty dollar. Like Rob Manfred said these awards are just chunks of metal anyway. 

None of this is to say the Sabres will or won’t move. Simply that there will be new facts of life. I will not root for the Sabres outside of Buffalo, that’s all I know. 

Edited September 10 by #freejame

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I know firsthand how this region responds to a good NHL hockey team. 

My point is: If the building was substantially sold out for every game, and the Sabres were a perennial playoff team, the franchise would still be at significant risk of being relocated because there’s much more money to be made elsewhere.

You are right. I guess ownership literally has no motive to field a winner.

So, support a team that isn’t trying to win, and if you do, and they finally figure it out, they may leave anyways 

depressing 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[Weave]

I will worry about the possibility of the team moving when the team manages to make the Sabres being here beneficial.

As far as I am concerned, as long as the organization refuses to do what it takes to become relevant, their existence in this market is not relevant.

I don’t know that Promo is into being humiliated outside of his fandom, but Im not into in either case.  The team doesn’t matter until it matters.  And I won’t be bullied into supporting it financially until it actually matters.

[Believer]

On 9/6/2024 at 8:29 PM, dudacek said:

It’s not so much an ultimatum as the simple truth everyone around here would agree with: they’ve had enough time to turn this thing around and it needs to happen now or they deserve to be fired.

A lot of pressure on Ruff and the players when it was created by and rightfully belongs to Pegula and Adams.

 

[nfreeman]

59 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

If Terry were to sell, a relocation would be a distinct possibility.

That goes for both franchises.

@PromoTheRobot is substantially correct to note how other cities/municipal areas --  ones that are much larger, much more monied -- are chomping at the bit to get in on more pro sports action.

Lord, I love Buffalo. But Buffalo's position within these crony capitalist ecosystems is tenuous.

This is 100% correct. 

I will also note that one can, and should, simultaneously both recognize that the above is correct, and not feel that "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert."  I don't think anyone feels that way, including @PromoTheRobot.

Recognizing the truth in the above just means that those pushing for TP to sell the team should understand that if that happens, the risk of the Sabres leaving rises from, say, 5% under TP to something like 40%-50%.

IMHO, what we should be pushing for is for TP to hire the right guys to run the team and to give them the resources they need to compete.  He's struck out on the first measure so far, although not without trying IMHO.  The 2nd measure has become an issue since Covid and we don't know whether it's permanent or temporary.

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You are right. I guess ownership literally has no motive to field a winner.

So, support a team that isn’t trying to win, and if you do, and they finally figure it out, they may leave anyways 

depressing 

That's not at all what I'm saying. And you're plenty smart enough to know that.

[That Aud Smell]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

I will also note that one can, and should, simultaneously both recognize that the above is correct, and not feel that "well, we're lucky just to have a team, so we shouldn't be PO'd about 14 years in the desert."  I don't think anyone feels that way, including @PromoTheRobot.

Hear, hear. I am in no way, shape, or form accepting of the team being a mess just because I should be happy that WNY still has a team. Eff that.

I need to be prepared to shout something Sabres-related if I ever get within earshot of Terry.

What would it be? Something short and capable of being clearly shouted.

It might make for a decent OT thread topic.

Jokes welcome, of course, but I'm legitimately interested in serious suggestions as well.

[That Aud Smell]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, what we should be pushing for is for TP to hire the right guys to run the team and to give them the resources they need to compete.  He's struck out on the first measure so far, although not without trying IMHO.  The 2nd measure has become an issue since Covid and we don't know whether it's permanent or temporary.

His track record in hiring people is brutal. He did very well with McDermott, who, in turn, brought in Beane. But that's really about it. I'd love to see him clean house with the Sabres, but have no confidence that he'd hire someone capable of turning things around.

Maybe he could retain that same consulting firm (or one like it) that initially recommended McDermott as the new HC -- only to have Terry bamboozled into hiring Rex -- and then came back and recommended McDermott again.

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

His track record in hiring people is brutal. He did very well with McDermott, who, in turn, brought in Beane. But that's really about it. I'd love to see him clean house with the Sabres, but have no confidence that he'd hire someone capable of turning things around.

Maybe he could retain that same consulting firm (or one like it) that initially recommended McDermott as the new HC -- only to have Terry bamboozled into hiring Rex -- and then came back and recommended McDermott again.

I agree in principle, but I think Terry thinks he knows too much about hockey and wants too much input.

There have been stories, even interviews how as Bills owner he will sit in on the meetings, interrupt coaches to ask questions, but I have never heard anything about him being involved in day to day decisions regarding roster construction or strategy. However, on the hockey side of things he has been involved in decisions (didn't he openly say he was behind the Leino and Erhoff signings? Much of what we hears from various sources is that Murray and Botts didn't like his direct involvement in hockey operations, or at least Terry's business people being involved in it?   I think he has been a bit more 'hands off' with the Bills than the Sabres.  That may in part be part of the reason for the Sabres bad decision making, and it also might impact who you are going to attract to come here and work under him on the Hockey side.

[Thorner]

25 minutes ago, Weave said:

I will worry about the possibility of the team moving when the team manages to make the Sabres being here beneficial.

As far as I am concerned, as long as the organization refuses to do what it takes to become relevant, their existence in this market is not relevant.

I don’t know that Promo is into being humiliated outside of his fandom, but Im not into in either case.  The team doesn’t matter until it matters.  And I won’t be bullied into supporting it financially until it actually matters.

[Thorner]

@PromoTheRobot

do you feel the fans should be there supporting the product right now? 

46 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

That's not at all what I'm saying. And you're plenty smart enough to know that.

I disagree with both parts 

- - - 

Edit there’s no way anyone that follows promo on twitter or even just reads his posts here could think he doesn’t put the onus on the fans. He can correct me if I am wrong that’s why I asked outright. At best we’ll get a “I don’t blame the fans for being upset at 13 years but the new regime isn’t amendable to that and deserves patience.” Which, is the position I’ve pinned the stance at 

I know for a fact promo doesn’t think the internal cap is a thing 

promo has always felt the fans secretly want the team to fail: that’s his central MO 

 

Edited September 10 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

14 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I agree in principle, but I think Terry thinks he knows too much about hockey and wants too much input.

 ... on the hockey side of things he has been involved in decisions (didn't he openly say he was behind the Leino and Erhoff signings? Much of what we hears from various sources is that Murray and Botts didn't like his direct involvement in hockey operations, or at least Terry's business people being involved in it?   I think he has been a bit more 'hands off' with the Bills than the Sabres.  That may in part be part of the reason for the Sabres bad decision making, and it also might impact who you are going to attract to come here and work under him on the Hockey side.

Is this true? Cripes. I have little (no) interest in re-opening the Meddling Thread. I'd just inferred that he'd taken steps back from directly managing all sports operations, but perhaps he views the Sabres as something he's still capable of dealing with more directly?

But that theory dovetails with ... is it @LGR4GM's proposition? ... that Terry and KA are essentially one person. That Terry hired KA to spy on and report back regarding what was going wrong in the Sabres FO of days past, and that Terry thereafter installed KA -- who had no credentials whatsoever -- as a direct extension of himself as Sabres GM.

Man. Just when I thought I could not feel any worse about the upcoming season.

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I disagree with both parts 

you fuggin muhfugger. that's funny.