Sabres on notice and everybody knows it

[Sabres Fan in NS]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

You guys may get a different impression if you listen because it wasn’t directly specified.

But my very clear impression is that members of the Adams executive are talking off-the-record that they know their jobs are on the line.

It’s not so much an ultimatum as the simple truth everyone around here would agree with: they’ve had enough time to turn this thing around and it needs to happen now or they deserve to be fired.

Basically, they aren’t idiots and they understand that’s the reality of pro sports.

That may be, but I think everyone (KA ...) will get the 2 Ruff seasons.  I expect a spirited effort to start the season, but it will take until Christmas for everyone to become familiar with their new roles.  Also 1/3 (roughly) of the game day roster has turned over - it will take time for everyone to get used to the new Ruff 'system'.  I remember the debates years ago about the 'Ruff system' and it seemed that we could not come up with what was the 'Ruff system'.

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 hours ago, Phil Goyette said:

Tough call.

I see Adams at school events, as his son goes to school with mine, and to be honest, he doesn't seem worried.

Strikes me as odd that they would hire his personal choice as Coach, then dismiss him after one season together, but I get the frustration, as I have been at a lot of games over the past 15 years.

FWIW, my son says Adam's son is a great guy, and an outstanding AAA hockey player.

Welcome !!

Sent you a beer thingie.

Nice post.

[DarthEbriate]

So... when they miss the playoffs at the end of this season because one of either Detroit or Ottawa has taken that #3 spot in the division instead, they'll trade their new captain Dahlin for picks and start a new timeline around Helenius as the 1C?

[mjd1001]

I'm going to agree with a lot of the comments above...just what are the consequences?  Adams getting fired seems like the obvious one, but what then? Do you bring in a New GM, possibly entire new front office and then Pegula tells them "Lindy is here for another year, I'm not firing ANOTHER coach and paying him, and by the way I still really like Lindy so you have to keep him?"

You are back to limiting your GM choices slightly by doing that. AND, if you bring in a new GM (again, are you going to get the best of the best ones to choose from, probably not) then what do they do? Strip the team down, rebuild and start over with doing things in their own vision?

To me the only consequence that would matter if Pegula were no longer involved, and that isn't likely.  Here is an opinion, I don't have any direct facts to back it up, but it is what I think:  With Botts and Murray, they wanted to do things their own way, but "Terry" thinks he knows hockey and wanted to be involved in the decision making...those guys didn't like that and that is, in part, why there are gone. So why did he hire Adams?  Adams was going to keep Terry informed, keep him involved (he has no choice really).  Hes basically Pegula's "yes man" running the team, nothing gets done without Pegula knowing about it, and even worse, without Terry's direct input (more than a typical owner, basically Terry wants to play fantasy GM and have Adams just do the grunt work).  I don't see Pegula firing Adams and hiring someone else that isn't the same way.

If Adams gets fired, its a PR move by Pegula to keep the fans with pitchforks and torches away from the Arena, NOT because he would actually want to make a change.  Adams lets Terry have his input, he treats him with soft gloves, why would Pegula want anything other than that?

If the season is a disaster, like a 75 point or less disaster (with less than 8,000 at the games by the end of the year), Maybe Pegula makes a move. But other than that, even if they miss the playoffs, the excuse will be "Lindy needs another year" and I don't see any moves. 

Edited September 7 by mjd1001

[Flashsabre]

I hope like hell that the Sabres are a playoff team this season.

If they are not and Pegula cleans house I have no idea where this organization goes next. Adams was brought in as someone Pegula could inherently trust and would communicate with him constantly. He did it because he didn’t “trust” these NHL people he had been told to hire.

Where would he turn next?  I hope we don’t have to find out.

[Weave]

49 minutes ago, LTS said:

After 13 years you probably should put your focus one level higher.

Do you really think it matters who the GM is?  Pegula has clearly been a negative influence on this organization from the moment he purchased it. While I don't think Adams has done anything amazing I also have to wonder how much he's got to put on the best public face in the face of a terrible owner. He can't just resign or he'd never get a shot in another organization.

The fans need to put the owner on notice. Anything other than the playoffs this year and no one is showing up next year. Never will happen of course, but one can dream.

Assuming that it is a league wide understanding that owner = problem, can you imagine Adams market value if he does manage to build a winning team under these conditions?

[Pimlach]

28 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm going to agree with a lot of the comments above...just what are the consequences?  Adams getting fired seems like the obvious one, but what then? Do you bring in a New GM, possibly entire new front office and then Pegula tells them "Lindy is here for another year, I'm not firing ANOTHER coach and paying him, and by the way I still really like Lindy so you have to keep him?"

You are back to limiting your GM choices slightly by doing that. AND, if you bring in a new GM (again, are you going to get the best of the best ones to choose from, probably not) then what do they do? Strip the team down, rebuild and start over with doing things in their own vision?

To me the only consequence that would matter if Pegula were no longer involved, and that isn't likely.  Here is an opinion, I don't have any direct facts to back it up, but it is what I think:  With Botts and Murray, they wanted to do things their own way, but "Terry" thinks he knows hockey and wanted to be involved in the decision making...those guys didn't like that and that is, in part, why there are gone. So why did he hire Adams?  Adams was going to keep Terry informed, keep him involved (he has no choice really).  Hes basically Pegula's "yes man" running the team, nothing gets done without Pegula knowing about it, and even worse, without Terry's direct input (more than a typical owner, basically Terry wants to play fantasy GM and have Adams just do the grunt work).  I don't see Pegula firing Adams and hiring someone else that isn't the same way.

If Adams gets fired, its a PR move by Pegula to keep the fans with pitchforks and torches away from the Arena, NOT because he would actually want to make a change.  Adams lets Terry have his input, he treats him with soft gloves, why would Pegula want anything other than that?

If the season is a disaster, like a 75 point or less disaster (with less than 8,000 at the games by the end of the year), Maybe Pegula makes a move. But other than that, even if they miss the playoffs, the excuse will be "Lindy needs another year" and I don't see any moves. 

 

19 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

I hope like hell that the Sabres are a playoff team this season.

If they are not and Pegula cleans house I have no idea where this organization goes next. Adams was brought in as someone Pegula could inherently trust and would communicate with him constantly. He did it because he didn’t “trust” these NHL people he had been told to hire.

Where would he turn next?  I hope we don’t have to find out.

 

Both are spot on.  If Adams gets fired it could get even worse.   Any decent GM will want to hire his own coach and FO staff.  What good GM candidates want to work for Terry?  
 

Maybe Karmanos would take it, and be better than Adams, and that kind of move is less disruptive as well.   

[Archie Lee]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

You guys may get a different impression if you listen because it wasn’t directly specified.

But my very clear impression is that members of the Adams executive are talking off-the-record that they know their jobs are on the line.

It’s not so much an ultimatum as the simple truth everyone around here would agree with: they’ve had enough time to turn this thing around and it needs to happen now or they deserve to be fired.

Basically, they aren’t idiots and they understand that’s the reality of pro sports.

Having now listened to the Sabre portion of the podcast, I think Friedman was just giving one of his 32 general thoughts about where the Sabres are at. Friedman’s reasonable assumption, as a content creator who follows the sport closely but not the Sabres, is that there will be consequences if this regime gets through year 5 without making the playoffs. I think he is ignoring (not intentionally) factors that people who follow the Sabres closely are aware of (the adoration that Pegula and Adams have for each other, Adams’ clear willingness to be a company man and take the bullets, that all indications are the Sabres have an internal salary cap, that the Sabres will be the youngest team in the league and thus expectations for this iteration of the team, if not for the franchise, should be tempered). 

I’m not saying nobody will be fired or moved if we miss the playoffs. No owner has fired more GMs and coaches in the last 15 years than Pegula. I could imagine changes occurring that range from players like Joker being moved at the deadline, to analytics people leaving, to a more prominent player like Thompson being traded, to Adams himself being fired or reassigned. I just don’t see at this point how those would be meaningful consequences. 

I’m not cynical about this group of players and I am excited about the coming season and about the future. I don’t think we are a playoff team though and I don’t think we can realistically be projected as a playoff team. That isn’t because we failed to bring in better players, because failure only applies to something you tried to do but did not accomplish. The plan is being followed. My cynicism is over the notion that Pegula would tie one hand behind the back of everyone in the hockey ops, and then somehow think he can hold them accountable for failing to make the playoffs.  

Edited September 7 by Archie Lee

[Archie Lee]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Though it's a contrarian opinion around here, don't honestly believe that Adams has a directive to not spend the Skinner savings.  But do believe he has a directive to not simply spend it to spend it.  Wouldn't be shocked if we do see a move during camp.  Wouldn't have money on it, but won't be surprised either.

And, rightly or wrongly, and we'll know about 8 months from now which it is, Adams is sticking to his plan.

Would be really nice if he can get that 2W deal done; would add a degree of wiggle room to what needs to happen to make this season successful.

You could be right. I would not be shocked if a trade for Kadri, as an example, was announced this afternoon. I would add though that Pegula has been known to change directions quickly, so just as the lack of such a trade thus far does not mean that Adams is not permitted to make such a deal, if such a trade does eventually happen it does not mean that Adams always had the authority. We don't know. 

There is a saying though about how ducks can be identified by how they waddle and by the sounds they make. 

Edited September 7 by Archie Lee

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

In the case of the Sabres we really should fire the Owner.  

If only we could.

[sabremike]

I honestly think some people are incapable of grasping just how toxic Pegula is within NHL circles. Virtually no respectable or credible person in the industry wants anything to do with the guy because they know it's a career death sentence. And forget hockey: go talk to anyone who worked for PSE and ask them what they think. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

9 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I honestly think some people are incapable of grasping just how toxic Pegula is within NHL circles. Virtually no respectable or credible person in the industry wants anything to do with the guy because they know it's a career death sentence. And forget hockey: go talk to anyone who worked for PSE and ask them what they think. 

With respect, what is this based on ??

[sabremike]

4 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

With respect, what is this based on ??

For starters: Talking with people who have in fact worked for PSE and testified to what an absolute shitshow the entire organization is.

[sabremike]

Also the former Sabre (a name guy) who outright told a friend of mine he would never want to play for this organization ever again.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, sabremike said:

For starters: Talking with people who have in fact worked for PSE and testified to what an absolute shitshow the entire organization is.

Okay.  Do these people have insider knowledge enough to opine on what NHL Executives think about the Sabres and them not wanting to join the team ??

Sure they could talk about day to day work situations and it may be reasonable to take that one or two steps further, but I'm not sure about people not wanting to come here.  Many GMs (too many) and head coaches (too many) have come and gone, so they were all willing to come here.

 

[sabremike]

15 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Okay.  Do these people have insider knowledge enough to opine on what NHL Executives think about the Sabres and them not wanting to join the team ??

Sure they could talk about day to day work situations and it may be reasonable to take that one or two steps further, but I'm not sure about people not wanting to come here.  Many GMs (too many) and head coaches (too many) have come and gone, so they were all willing to come here.

 

Why do you think the Sabres are constantly hiring guys who are either entry level or have no other options (Lindy is the glaring exception who was willing to come here because he's a team legend)? We are as low as it gets in the NHL and it's entirely the fault of one man.

[#freejame]

49 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Why do you think the Sabres are constantly hiring guys who are either entry level or have no other options (Lindy is the glaring exception who was willing to come here because he's a team legend)? We are as low as it gets in the NHL and it's entirely the fault of one man.

Is Lindy the exception? I guess we’ll see. 

[SABRES 0311]

The thread title seems overly aggressive 😆 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, sabremike said:

Why do you think the Sabres are constantly hiring guys who are either entry level or have no other options (Lindy is the glaring exception who was willing to come here because he's a team legend)? We are as low as it gets in the NHL and it's entirely the fault of one man.

I don't doubt that this is true. It definitely FEELS true, but at this time I've still never seen anything concrete to confirm it as factually true. 

[GoPuckYourself]

Let’s just hope Ruff really can be the difference so we don’t have to go through this ***** again next year as it’s getting very tiresome for all. If Ruff is the difference we should be getting the very best of our top players, much better power play, we got tougher/faster now these players need to seize the opportunity. Man let’s all hope!

 

[nfreeman]

3 hours ago, sabremike said:

I honestly think some people are incapable of grasping just how toxic Pegula is within NHL circles. Virtually no respectable or credible person in the industry wants anything to do with the guy because they know it's a career death sentence. And forget hockey: go talk to anyone who worked for PSE and ask them what they think. 

It wasn't a career death sentence for Jason Botteril, although he probably deserved it (as did Tim Murray and Ralph Kruger, for whom it was a death sentence).  Nor for Dan Bylsma or Phil Housely. 

 

3 hours ago, sabremike said:

For starters: Talking with people who have in fact worked for PSE and testified to what an absolute shitshow the entire organization is.

Certainly enough people have gotten fired and downsized for there to be plenty of embittered ex-employees.

I agree that the number of senior executives who have been fired is not an indicator of a healthy organization.

 

3 hours ago, sabremike said:

Also the former Sabre (a name guy) who outright told a friend of mine he would never want to play for this organization ever again.

I'd be curious which coaches and GMs he was on the team for.

 

3 hours ago, sabremike said:

Why do you think the Sabres are constantly hiring guys who are either entry level or have no other options (Lindy is the glaring exception who was willing to come here because he's a team legend)? We are as low as it gets in the NHL and it's entirely the fault of one man.

I don't think this was true for Tim Murray, Jason Botteril, Housely, Bylsma or Lindy (or Karmanos, Ventura or some of the other recent FO hires).  I agree that it applies to KA, Kruger and Granato.

If KA gets canned and TP is willing to pay the going rate for an experienced GM and coach, he'll get someone credible to take the jobs.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, sabremike said:

I honestly think some people are incapable of grasping just how toxic Pegula is within NHL circles. Virtually no respectable or credible person in the industry wants anything to do with the guy because they know it's a career death sentence. And forget hockey: go talk to anyone who worked for PSE and ask them what they think. 

I hear this stuff too.  Now, why don't we hear it from the Bills side?   Is Beane that good of a politician when it comes to keeping the boss happy?  

[Thorny]

So what odds are people giving this team right now, what are we thinking? I feel like I settle in somewhere around thinking playoffs are about 35% likely. 

Could get that up to 50/50 pretty quickly with a fast start 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

 

I don't think this was true for Tim Murray, Jason Botteril, Housely, Bylsma or Lindy (or Karmanos, Ventura or some of the other recent FO hires).  I agree that it applies to KA, Kruger and Granato.

If KA gets canned and TP is willing to pay the going rate for an experienced GM and coach, he'll get someone credible to take the jobs.

Murray, Botterill, and Housley were all stretch hires, and while known around the league, they each had limited experience for the job they we getting in Buffalo.  Botterill is one of 3 AGM's in Seattle.   Bylsma is finally getting another shot.  Housley is still learning as an assistants coach.  

LaFontaine was a major stretch too.  LaFontaine gave us Murray, who I think was a very poor leader and an impatient GM.  Murray was never involved in hockey after that stint in Buffalo.  

If Adams gets canned TP will probably offer the job to Karmanos.  I seriously doubt he pays for a big name guy.  

[sabremike]

29 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Murray, Botterill, and Housley were all stretch hires, and while known around the league, they each had limited experience for the job they we getting in Buffalo.  Botterill is one of 3 AGM's in Seattle.   Bylsma is finally getting another shot.  Housley is still learning as an assistants coach.  

LaFontaine was a major stretch too.  LaFontaine gave us Murray, who I think was a very poor leader and an impatient GM.  Murray was never involved in hockey after that stint in Buffalo.  

If Adams gets canned TP will probably offer the job to Karmanos.  I seriously doubt he pays for a big name guy.  

Oddly enough Botts actually ended up benefiting by failing under Pegula because lots of sentiment around the league was that it was Pegula's fault and not Botts.