Our New "Third Line" Thread

[bob_sauve28]

I'm guessing Zucker--McLoud--and Greenway? 

Of course injuries and there are a lot of forwards, so it could be any combination, but for now that's my guess at who will be on the line. 

 

[mjd1001]

I think the issue with answering this now is, I'm not sure this will be the 3rd line.  I personally think its 50-50 whether Greenway is even starting in the opening day roster, let alone the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th line.  I think everyone has Malenstyn penciled in on the 4th line...that is LIKELY but I see a slight chance he could be on the 3rd line.

Finally, what is the 3rd or 4th line? Will Lindy even use a dedicated 4th line for checking?  Or with the makeup of the bottom 6, will he just mix and match both those lines with players swapping night to night and have them both play as 'energy' lines rather than outright 'checking/shutdown' typical 4th lines.

I think you can take Krebs, Malenstyn, Kubel, Greenway, Lafferty, Mcleod, Greenway, Zucker, and even Rosen....throw all of those guys together, and each night any 3 of the 9 will be on line line, 3 on the other line, and the role both of those lines have won't be all that different.

Edited September 7 by mjd1001

[Weave]

I’d pick 3 on the 3rd question, but I hear voices.

[PerreaultForever]

I can't vote on this yet because I don't know what the "third line" will be. There's an assumption that Ruff will leave Granato lines as is and build from there but I don't believe that's true. Lindy will make his own determinations and who plays with who is really unknown. 

Probably a fairly safe bet to say McLeod is the center but otherwise no idea. Could be anybody. 

[JoeSchmoe]

Our leading scorer was on the 3rd line last year until he was traded.

Unless Cozens, Tuch, and TnT all play like 22-23 and our other young guys take steps forward, we're weaker on every theoretical line except our 4th line. But since I don't know for sure who's playing 3rd line, I can't answer the poll question. 

I do hear voices though and they're scary as *****!

 

[Stoner]

You heard that Lindy got the job, right?

[dudacek]

One think I like about Zucker McLeod and Greenway is that I consider each of them to be capable 3rd-liners.

The idea that you've got  complementary skills — a lightning-fast transition skater and carrier in McLeod, a behemoth in Greenway, and pesky forechecker who can finish in Zucker — all of whom are responsible without the puck is a bonus.

But the idea of having real 3rd-liners on the 3rd line has been foreign to the Sabres.

That' said, I'm 100% with @PerreaultForever, throw out what Granato taught you, Lindy is not likely to do what people are expecting.

[JoeSchmoe]

26 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

You heard that Lindy got the job, right?

Maybe he can get the guys I mentioned playing to what we saw two years ago. If so, we've got a chance. 

I just don't like losing Skinner and Mitts... And Byram was a net negative expected goal % guy on the Avalanche which is pretty hard to do on a team that good. Unless you're telling me he was the guy who took on all CO's prime defensive matchups, him getting a lot of ice time next year (as expected) will not help us.

Edited September 6 by JoeSchmoe

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'm guessing Zucker--McLoud--and Greenway? 

Of course injuries and there are a lot of forwards, so it could be any combination, but for now that's my guess at who will be on the line. 

 

I think the 3rd line could be something not listed above. A great energy line that plays great defense and really frustrates the opposition and scores timely goals. A line that energizes the top two lines. I feel the same way about the fourth line. I think both lines take the majority of defensive F/Os and takes the “sail out of the wind.”  - Hank Bullough

We shouldn’t underestimate strong defensive play especially when it is also physical and fast. I think the Sabres will be one of the better defensive teams this year while the the first two lines score in bunches… But so much is riding on fixing that PP…. We simply have to fix it. If there is a big hole in the what we we did this offseason, it could be not fixing the PP…. I’m really hoping Quinn and JJ become stars this year. I think they both have it, especially Quinn. I fully expect TNT, Tuch and Cozens to return to form as well and a lot is riding on Benny to up his game too…. Not really worried about 5 x 5 ….Its the PP! Gotta fix the PP to at least the middle of the pack but if we can get even better than that, great things are going to happen.

[bob_sauve28]

36 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

You heard that Lindy got the job, right?

You believe what the media says? 🙃

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

2 minutes ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

I think the 3rd line could be something not listed above. A great energy line that plays great defense and really frustrates the opposition and scores timely goals. A line that energizes the top two lines. I feel the same way about the fourth line. I think both lines take the majority of defensive F/Os and takes the “sail out of the wind.”  - Hank Bullough

We shouldn’t underestimate strong defensive play especially when it is also physical and fast. I think the Sabres will be one of the better defensive teams this year while the the first two lines score in bunches… But so much is riding on fixing that PP…. We simply have to fix it. If there is a big hole in the what we we did this offseason, it could be not fixing the PP…. I’m really hoping Quinn and JJ become stars this year. I think they both have it, especially Quinn. I fully expect TNT, Tuch and Cozens to return to form as well and a lot is riding on Benny to up his game too…. Not really worried about 5 x 5 ….Its the PP! Gotta fix the PP to at least the middle of the pack but if we can get even better than that, great things are going to happen.

Just to finish up about the bottom six….the bottom line…. I think they outscore who they are playing against. That’s winning hockey.

[GASabresIUFAN]

If we get 35 goals next season from McLeod, Greenway, and Zucker we’ll be lucky.  They might not out score the 4th line.  The truth is we’ll be fielding a decent 1st line, an average 2nd line, a below average 3rd line and an above average 4th line offensively.  The gap in scoring ability between the 2nd and 3rd lines is the size of the Grand Canyon and could be a major problem this coming season.  Hell Quinn could outscore the 3rd line by himself.  

Adams keen eye for talent and roster construction took a roster with potentially 7 20 goal scoring forwards to 5 unless Benson improves his scoring dramatically.

[dudacek]

Things no one is considering:

• McLeod as this team's Jochen Hecht.
• Krebs as its Jochen Hecht
• Greenway as its Mike Grier
• Benson as Thompson's set-up man
• Krebs in the top 6
• Quinn not in the top 6
• Krebs Quinn and Peterka as a Roy Max Vanek-style 3rd line.
• Benson Cozens Greenway or Benson Cozens Tuch as match-up "2nd" line
• Zucker scoring 25-30 riding shotgun with Tage just like when he rode shotgun with Malkin
• McLeod as the 4th-line centre
• Thompson and Tuch on separate lines
• Cozens on the wing
• Cozens as the net-front guy on the PP
• Lafferty or Malenstyn as the physical presence on a line with 2 scorers
• Kulich as the "missing top 6 forward"
• Rosen making the team over Krebs or Aube-Kubel, and playing in a middle-six role.

There's a lot of ways Lindy could surprise us

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If we get 35 goals next season from McLeod, Greenway, and Zucker we’ll be lucky.  They might not out score the 4th line.  The truth is we’ll be fielding a decent 1st line, an average 2nd line, a below average 3rd line and an above average 4th line offensively.  The gap in scoring ability between the 2nd and 3rd lines is the size of the Grand Canyon and could be a major problem this coming season.  Hell Quinn could outscore the 3rd line by himself.  

Adams keen eye for talent and roster construction took a roster with potentially 7 20 goal scoring forwards to 5 unless Benson improves his scoring dramatically.

What do you expect a 3rd line to score? 35 seems pretty average to me.

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

I think the 3rd line could be something not listed above. A great energy line that plays great defense and really frustrates the opposition and scores timely goals. A line that energizes the top two lines. I feel the same way about the fourth line. I think both lines take the majority of defensive F/Os and takes the “sail out of the wind.”  - Hank Bullough

We shouldn’t underestimate strong defensive play especially when it is also physical and fast. I think the Sabres will be one of the better defensive teams this year while the the first two lines score in bunches… But so much is riding on fixing that PP…. We simply have to fix it. If there is a big hole in the what we we did this offseason, it could be not fixing the PP…. I’m really hoping Quinn and JJ become stars this year. I think they both have it, especially Quinn. I fully expect TNT, Tuch and Cozens to return to form as well and a lot is riding on Benny to up his game too…. Not really worried about 5 x 5 ….Its the PP! Gotta fix the PP to at least the middle of the pack but if we can get even better than that, great things are going to happen.

Don't see any way the PP isn't at least good (top 12 in the league) and could be very good (top 6).  They have one of the best set up men at the point; a great shot at either side, at least one of which is a reasonable set up man; and at least 1 more good set up man at the bumper who can also shoot; along with another really big power forward to be battling for loose pucks and working screens.  And they still have solid offensive talent on the 2nd unit as well.  Getting Skinner off the PP, and not having a set entry that even Squirt level coaches wouldn't want to implement, along with increased movement of players and the puck, along with a willingness to have players not named Benson within 15' of the net when the puck is on Dahlin's stick will all enable the PP to be a strength of the team.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

One think I like about Zucker McLeod and Greenway is that I consider each of them to be capable 3rd-liners.

The idea that you've got  complementary skills — a lightning-fast transition skater and carrier in McLeod, a behemoth in Greenway, and pesky forechecker who can finish in Zucker — all of whom are responsible without the puck is a bonus.

But the idea of having real 3rd-liners on the 3rd line has been foreign to the Sabres.

That' said, I'm 100% with @PerreaultForever, throw out what Granato taught you, Lindy is not likely to do what people are expecting.

I've had similar thoughts to the bolded but in a different way. I'm wondering if Lindy might not think Tage, you don't want to go to the netfront so fine, shoot that puck and I will put Greenway beside you. Greenway crash that f'n net every shift. Or Zucker, you play with Benson. Talk to that kid all the time. Teach him everything you can about being a pro. Stuff like that. A real mixture of roles over skill. Maybe he wants Quinn with McLeod as McLeod's sniper. Literally anything is possible.

I will actually be quite skeptical and disappointed if this team starts the year looking similar to Granato's with just a different bottom unit. 

[Pimlach]

I didn't vote.

We don't know what the 3rd line is except for McLeod is at C.  

Good assumptions are that Zucker does not crack top 6 and Greenway is still top 9 and you get a line.   Not sure its a good one but it might be. 

Is Benson ready for top 6?  Will Krebs work his way into the line up, and where? 

Not sure about Malenstyn-Lafferty-Abe Kubel as a line either.  They are fast and they hit people, they were 4th liners on other teams, we know that much.  

Lindy is a line mixer and he likes to match up with situational players so we could see a lot of shuffling for awhile.  

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I didn't vote.

We don't know what the 3rd line is except for McLeod is at C.  

Good assumptions are that Zucker does not crack top 6 and Greenway is still top 9 and you get a line.   Not sure its a good one but it might be. 

Is Benson ready for top 6?  Will Krebs work his way into the line up, and where? 

Not sure about Malenstyn-Lafferty-Abe Kubel as a line either.  They are fast and they hit people, they were 4th liners on other teams, we know that much.  

Lindy is a line mixer and he likes to match up with situational players so we could see a lot of shuffling for awhile.  

Yup.  The Bowman is strong in this one.

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Our leading scorer was on the 3rd line last year until he was traded.

Unless Cozens, Tuch, and TnT all play like 22-23 and our other young guys take steps forward, we're weaker on every theoretical line except our 4th line. But since I don't know for sure who's playing 3rd line, I can't answer the poll question. 

I do hear voices though and they're scary as *****!

 

You mean SCARY GOOD, right?

 

 

Right?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

What do you expect a 3rd line to score? 35 seems pretty average to me.

If we were a good team, I’d expect about 45-50 goals.  The Vanek, Roy, Max line scored about 60.

Edited September 6 by GASabresIUFAN

[JoeSchmoe]

18 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

You mean SCARY GOOD, right?

 

 

Right?

Haha! I thought about that reference... But didn't pull the trigger.

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Lindy is a line mixer and he likes to match up with situational players so we could see a lot of shuffling for awhile.  

I'd like to see Lindy rip Greenway a new one for playing like he's 6'1 190lb when he's really 6'6 230lb.

If he doesn't get it going, maybe we could give his spot to one of the youngsters who's hungrier and has a lot more upside than Greenway's 10 goals a year.

[dudacek]

44 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If we were a good team, I’d expect about 45-50 goals.  The Vanek, Roy, Max line scored about 60.

Very roughly: 32 teams times 6 forwards equals 192, so statistically “3rd-line” goal scorers finished between 193 and 288 in scoring.

So a low-end 3rd-liner puts up about 9 goals and a high-end about 14. Obviously there’s all kinds of ways you can describe a 3rd-line based on team composition (Vanek Afinogenov Roy were 2, 5, 9 in goals, but even 7-8-9 on that team combined for 54) but 35 looks like as good as any a break-even point for today’s 7-8-9 scoring forwards.

It’s actually an interesting exercise.

A “4th-liner” produces between 5 and 9

A “2nd-liner” 15 and 24

And 24 and above was 1st-line production

Off the top of my head I’d say 35 goals is 1st-line production, but only 22 players put that up; that’s not even one per team.

Edited September 7 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

44 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Very roughly: 32 teams times 6 forwards equals 192, so statistically “3rd-line” goal scorers finished between 193 and 288 in scoring.

So a low-end 3rd-liner puts up about 9 goals and a high-end about 14. Obviously there’s all kinds of ways you can describe a 3rd-line based on team composition (Vanek Afinogenov Roy were 2, 5, 9 in goals, but even 7-8-9 on that team combined for 54) but 35 looks like as good as any a break-even point for today’s 7-8-9 scoring forwards.

It’s actually an interesting exercise.

A “4th-liner” produces between 5 and 9

A “2nd-liner” 15 and 24

And 24 and above was 1st-line production

Off the top of my head I’d say 35 goals is 1st-line production, but only 22 players put that up; that’s not even one per team.

We need to stop being an average or below average team. That’s kind of the point. Fielding an average 3rd line doesn’t really help us make the playoffs.  Having better talent on the 3rd line creates matchup problems.  It’s one of the reasons the Vanek line was so successful. Our current 3rd line won’t be a matchup issue for anyone.  McLeod is fast but has no physical game.  Greenway is slow as molasses and isn’t really a good partner for McLeod, while Zucker is a nice player but on the downside of his career.  I’ll be surprised if they show real chemistry.

A Benson, McLeod and Zucker line sounds much more appealing.  This can only happen if and when Adams goes into win now mode as promised and upgrades the top forwards.

Edited September 7 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

BTW -- @bob_sauve28 -- well done on question #3.  I chuckled for a few minutes on that one.

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We need to stop being an average or below average team. That’s kind of the point. Fielding an average 3rd line doesn’t really help us make the playoffs.  Having better talent on the 3rd line creates matchup problems.  It’s one of the reasons the Vanek line was so successful. Our current 3rd line won’t be a matchup issue for anyone.  McLeod is fast but has no physical game.  Greenway is slow as molasses and isn’t really a good partner for McLeod, while Zucker is a nice player but on the downside of his career.  I’ll be surprised if they show real chemistry.

A Benson, McLeod and Zucker line sounds much more appealing.  This can only happen if and when Adams goes into win now mode as promised and upgrades the top forwards.

Agree wholeheartedly with the bold.

Not sure goals-for are the best way to measure the success of the 3rd line.

RAV was successful because Drury/Grier got best offensive lines and Briere got the best defensive lines, leaving them to typically feast on bottom-half players where their defensive flaws were less critical.

That's why this whole discussion really hinges on Lindy and how he chooses to deploy his forwards.

 

• Hecht/Briere/Dumont.  Benson/Thompson/Zucker
• Grier/Drury/Kotalik    Greenway/Cozens/Tuch
• Vanek/Roy/Afinogenov   Peterka/McLeod/Quinn
• Mair/Gaustad/Pominville   Malenstyn/Lafferty/Krebs

No need to point out how or why you'd change the combos around, or why these ones are wrong, just trying to point out in very general terms one way Linday could get 50 or 60 goals from his 3rd line, mirroring the type of setup he used 20 years ago.