Nazem Kadri -- Should the Sabres Pursue Him?

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not sure how to debate 'not doing so', as that simply is the status quo.  

And status quo this year is a lot different than most other recent years around here. A considerably different bottom 6. A new head coach.  A defense unit and goaltender that are young but one year older and played considerably better the last 50 games of last season than they did before that.  For some of us, the 'risk' of adding a 34 year old this year, who will be on the books until he is almost 39 just isn't worth it until we 'see' just how much progress the status quo has made.

But to answer your post more directly....I guess the debate is getting a legit #3 center (not Krebs or whatever else comes out of camp), having that guy be a #3 center for a year (some people's opinion) to a few years (others opinions)....VS the long term cap cost and what that may allow you to do/not due with your young guys up for contract in the next year or two.

I know some want the very good/great #3 center now.  I'd personally take the latter and pass on him.

You think status quo is different this year? I disagree completely. It’s the same as every recent year. As dudacek always says: none of it matters if the in-house core (which, for us, is the youth realizing its potential) doesn’t perform. No impact outside additions. It’s another year expecting and counting on the youth to catapult the team into taking the next step. We’ve been a “good young team” on the rise multiple times over the last 10 years, I truly don’t see a difference. Will the results be different? We can’t know that yet. 

We’ve cycled through coaches. Will Ruff be better? I’m hopeful, but time will tell. Status quo.

We “ran back” the roster as much this offseason as any recent. The retooling of the bottom 6 is being drastically overplayed as far as makeover- these are the types of moves, tinkering at the bottom of the lineup, that cup contenders do. There’s been very little, see: No change to the core or the upper portion of the lineup be it top 6 or top 4. It’s a run back, more less. 

And the biggest thing: yet another year since “EEE” of being among the lowest spenders in the league. You cannot seriously buy the narrative that anything of note has changed. The strategy is the strategy: win while spending less than everyone. The scoreboard has changed. Hope being the strategy is the same. KA year 5, here we go. After we ALL said to “expect a big offseason.” Funny how that fades as September roles around 

Edited September 4 by Thorny

[mjd1001]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You think status quo is different this year? I disagree completely. It’s the same as every recent year. As dudacek always says: none of it matters if the core/youth don’t perform. It’s another year expecting and counting on the youth to catapult the team into taking the next step. We’ve been a “good young team” on the rise multiple times over the last 10 years, I truly don’t see a difference. Will the results be different? We can’t know that yet. 

We’ve cycled through coaches. Will Ruff be better? I’m hopeful, but time will tell. Status quo.

We “ran back” the roster as much this offseason as any recent. The retooling of the bottom 6 is being drastically overplayed as far as makeover- these are the types of moves, tinkering at the bottom of the lineup, that cup contenders do. There’s been very little, see: No change to the core or the upper portion of the lineup be it top 6 or top 4. It’s a run back, more less. 

And the biggest thing: yet another year since “EEE” of being among the lowest spenders in the league. You cannot seriously buy the narrative that anything of note has changed. The strategy is the strategy: win while spending less than everyone. The scoreboard has changed. Hope being the strategy is the same. KA year 5, here we go. After we ALL said to “expect a big offseason.” Funny how that fades as September roles around 

I think a lot of the players have changed, enough to make somewhat of a difference.  I'd like them to spend more to bring in other players, sure. But bringing in Kadri...with the negatives discussed in previous posts, I do not think moves the needle enough compared to the risk.

If you want to trade Krebs, Rosen, and next years first, then fine...just an aging Kadri I don't think is the best return.  If there is no other choice, then I'd wait, because again, a 34 year old Kadri I don't think moves the needle enough.

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not sure how to debate 'not doing so', as that simply is the status quo.  

And status quo this year is a lot different than most other recent years around here. A considerably different bottom 6. A new head coach.  A defense unit and goaltender that are young but one year older and played considerably better the last 50 games of last season than they did before that.  For some of us, the 'risk' of adding a 34 year old this year, who will be on the books until he is almost 39 just isn't worth it until we 'see' just how much progress the status quo has made.

But to answer your post more directly....I guess the debate is getting a legit #3 center (not Krebs or whatever else comes out of camp), having that guy be a #3 center for a year (some people's opinion) to a few years (others opinions)....VS the long term cap cost and what that may allow you to do/not due with your young guys up for contract in the next year or two.

I know some want the very good/great #3 center now.  I'd personally take the latter and pass on him.

I think Krebs at #3 Center and Cozens at #2 center, if that is what we have, is the weakness of this team.  I'm just not sold on Kadri being anything more than a temporary, and costly, bandaid for that.

Umm, don't they now have a legit 3C - McLeod?

Isn't the issue finding either an upgrade at 2W or at 2C allowing Cozens to slide to 2W?

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

I think a lot of the players have changed, enough to make somewhat of a difference.  I'd like them to spend more to bring in other players, sure. But bringing in Kadri...with the negatives discussed in previous posts, I do not think moves the needle enough compared to the risk.

If you want to trade Krebs, Rosen, and next years first, then fine...just an aging Kadri I don't think is the best return.  If there is no other choice, then I'd wait, because again, a 34 year old Kadri I don't think moves the needle enough.

My point isn’t so much that it’s not Kadri as that it’s never anyone 

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Umm, don't they now have a legit 3C - McLeod?

Isn't the issue finding either an upgrade at 2W or at 2C allowing Cozens to slide to 2W?

Maybe, I don't know how the lines will play out yet.  But if you are trading for Kadri with expectations of him being your #2 center (and at his cap hit, probably for a long time), then I like it even less.

As a #2 center, can I rely on a 34+ year old to give me 18 minutes of ice time per game going forward though the rest of his contract?  I just don't want to be in that position.

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

My point isn’t so much that it’s not Kadri as that it’s never anyone 

I understand that, and I wish it WOULD be someone.  I just wouldn't make what I think is a bad move (long term) in place of more of the same (no move).

Edited September 4 by mjd1001

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Maybe, I don't know how the lines will play out yet.  But if you are trading for Kadri with expectations of him being your #2 center (and at his cap hit, probably for a long time), then I like it even less.

I understand that, and I wish it WOULD be someone.  I just wouldn't make what I think is a bad move (long term) in place of more of the same (no move).

I understand that but I’m no more convinced adding Kadri is bad than I am that “no move” is bad. In fact I’m reasonably convinced “no move” is bad given recent past precedent 

Less certain Kadri would be bad

the biggest boon to not adding Kadri is that it keeps our options open for something better: but the rub is that we never capitalize on that opportunity lol

so in essence, every one of these hypotheticals becomes a binary choice. “Kadri, or nothing.” I’m almost always going to say “yes” in a vacuum because, well, the sabres do indeed apparently live in a vacuum.

I’ve seen the results of doing nothing. So many times, that I expect similar until something else miraculously emerges from the dearth. At that point everyone can laugh and say I was foolish to doubt them. Those days can be there for anyone who needs them.

Ill just laugh and be happy we are finally good

Edited September 4 by Thorny

[SwampD]

There's just no place on the Sabres for a true 2C.

[Thorny]

It’s interesting: the team being a crater for a decade has sort of gradually robbed from, and sullied the discussion around the team itself. At some point, putting on my nerd glasses and deciding I’d like to reasonably turn down a potential addition because I’ve found a metric i don’t like, and have a “crafty” idea for someone I think would fit better, loses its charm when you realize those other guys aren’t coming. Or, really, anyone. Debating intelligently between which guy we want sort of just eventually devolves into, “honestly, I’ll take what I can get.”

anyways. I miss Rick.

Edited September 4 by Thorny

[triumph_communes]

Don’t think it’s good cap management and the ship sailed when we acquired McLeod

[GASabresIUFAN]

One thing besides production that most seem to be ignoring is that Kadri brings an edge to his game that this team is sorely lacking.  He’d be our answer to Marchand.  

He not only plays with an edge but he’s been very durable.  He has also had his best two years in the NHL since turning 30.  

We are also paying $5 mill for next season to Zucker.  How much more value does Kadri bring.  Assuming Greenway is moved in the deal for cap reasons, a possible 3rd line of Kadri, Zucker and McLeod would be interesting, but I like the idea of Kadri on the 2nd line better.  Quinn, Kadri and Cozens would give teams fits if everyone plays to their potential.

[nfreeman]

I would be shocked if KA made a move like this -- not least because it seems like a spend-like-a-drunken-sailor move that TP probably wouldn't like.

I would also be very surprised if Calgary retained meaningful salary to facilitate a trade -- I think teams can only retain on one deal at a time, and this would occupy their slot for 5 years.

Having said that, if Calgary were to retain $2.5MM or so, I would trade for Kadri in a heartbeat.  He is exactly what the doctor ordered for this team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I would be shocked if KA made a move like this -- not least because it seems like a spend-like-a-drunken-sailor move that TP probably wouldn't like.

I would also be very surprised if Calgary retained meaningful salary to facilitate a trade -- I think teams can only retain on one deal at a time, and this would occupy their slot for 5 years.

Having said that, if Calgary were to retain $2.5MM or so, I would trade for Kadri in a heartbeat.  He is exactly what the doctor ordered for this team.

Teams can retain up to 50% on 3 different players.  https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/retained-salary

[MattPie]

32 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Having said that, if Calgary were to retain $2.5MM or so, I would trade for Kadri in a heartbeat.  He is exactly what the doctor ordered for this team.

I kinda agree. At a cap-hit of like $4.5M, that's something that I bet a lot of teams are carrying around with a bad contract or two. You could even trade him and retain some and I bet there'd be takers.

[Archie Lee]

Kadri's contract will expire at age 38.  I'm not advocating for recklessness.  For perspective though, the following deals were signed just this offseason:

- Edm, Draisatl, 8 x 14, expires at age 37

- Bos, Lindholm, 7 x 7.75, expires at age 36

- Carolina, Slavin, 8 x 6.395, expires at age 39

- Phi, Konecny, 8 x 8.75, expires at age 36

- Stl, Buchnevich, 6 x 8, expires at age 36

- Sea, Montour, 7 x 7.142, expires at age 37

- Sea, Stephenson, 7 x 6.250, expires at age 37

- Nash, Stamkos, 4 x 8, expires at age 38

- Nash, Saros, 8 x 7.740, expires at age 38 

- Nash, Skjei, 7 x 7, expires at age 37

 

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Kadri's contract will expire at age 38.  I'm not advocating for recklessness.  For perspective though, the following deals were signed just this offseason:

- Edm, Draisatl, 8 x 14, expires at age 37

- Bos, Lindholm, 7 x 7.75, expires at age 36

- Carolina, Slavin, 8 x 6.395, expires at age 39

- Phi, Konecny, 8 x 8.75, expires at age 36

- Stl, Buchnevich, 6 x 8, expires at age 36

- Sea, Montour, 7 x 7.142, expires at age 37

- Sea, Stephenson, 7 x 6.250, expires at age 37

- Nash, Stamkos, 4 x 8, expires at age 38

- Nash, Saros, 8 x 7.740, expires at age 38 

- Nash, Skjei, 7 x 7, expires at age 37

 

Good post. There’s no perfect. We are letting it be the enemy of good far too often imo 

[DarthEbriate]

There are tanking teams who need veteran leadership and reaching the cap floor; there is salary retention and draft capital as sweeteners; there is LTIR. Many contracts don't age beautifully, but most can also be moved or avoided, at need. The cap is rising. For Krebs, Rosen, and a 1st? Absolutely. The team is immediately better and has depth down the spine.

[Thorny]

19 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

There are tanking teams who need veteran leadership and reaching the cap floor; there is salary retention and draft capital as sweeteners; there is LTIR. Many contracts don't age beautifully, but most can also be moved or avoided, at need. The cap is rising. For Krebs, Rosen, and a 1st? Absolutely. The team is immediately better and has depth down the spine.

Absolutely. Good teams continually, demonstrably find their way out from underneath the “undesirable” contracts: chalk it up along with “how are we going to pay our RFAs??” to the “problems good teams have to deal with” side of the cart we like to put before the horse at every available opportunity.

The first step is doing everything you can to win right now. THEN you worry about maintaining it (ie the future). But that isn’t how we’ve built for years, now. We’ve done the opposite: “only make moves for now IF they don’t harm the future”. The future that never will arise without prioritizing the now.

Eyes always on the horizon. Never on right here, now, what’s right in front of us. Some little wise green guy said something like that I think 

[Taro T]

59 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Kadri's contract will expire at age 38.  I'm not advocating for recklessness.  For perspective though, the following deals were signed just this offseason:

- Edm, Draisatl, 8 x 14, expires at age 37

- Bos, Lindholm, 7 x 7.75, expires at age 36

- Carolina, Slavin, 8 x 6.395, expires at age 39

- Phi, Konecny, 8 x 8.75, expires at age 36

- Stl, Buchnevich, 6 x 8, expires at age 36

- Sea, Montour, 7 x 7.142, expires at age 37

- Sea, Stephenson, 7 x 6.250, expires at age 37

- Nash, Stamkos, 4 x 8, expires at age 38

- Nash, Saros, 8 x 7.740, expires at age 38 

- Nash, Skjei, 7 x 7, expires at age 37

 

But all those guys in "Sabres Years" are 47-59.  😉 

[DarthEbriate]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Absolutely. Good teams continually, demonstrably find their way out from underneath the “undesirable” contracts: chalk it up along with “how are we going to pay our RFAs??” to the “problems good teams have to deal with” side of the cart we like to put before the horse at every available opportunity.

The first step is doing everything you can to win right now. THEN you worry about maintaining it (ie the future). But that isn’t how we’ve built for years, now. We’ve done the opposite: “only make moves for now IF they don’t harm the future”. The future that never will arise without prioritizing the now.

Eyes always on the horizon. Never on right here, now, what’s right in front of us. Some little wise green guy said something like that I think 

If last season was the final house money/developmental year of the rebuild and this season is the first "we're going to make the playoffs" season... then you'd best act like it from top to bottom.

Edit: And who wouldn't want Cozens, McLeod, and Benson learning some punk trade secrets from Kadri?

(Of course, thus far, EEE and the unspoken message from the top begs to differ.)

Edited September 4 by DarthEbriate

[Night Train]

15 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Krebs, Rosen and a second.  Take the risk KA.  

That's not much of a risk. Krebs was offered a 11k raise for one year and hadn't signed. He looks like odd man out already. Rosen is AHL . So it's basically a 2nd round picks. 

Sure. Go get him for those peanuts. 

[Weave]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Absolutely. Good teams continually, demonstrably find their way out from underneath the “undesirable” contracts: chalk it up along with “how are we going to pay our RFAs??” to the “problems good teams have to deal with” side of the cart we like to put before the horse at every available opportunity.

The first step is doing everything you can to win right now. THEN you worry about maintaining it (ie the future). But that isn’t how we’ve built for years, now. We’ve done the opposite: “only make moves for now IF they don’t harm the future”. The future that never will arise without prioritizing the now.

Eyes always on the horizon. Never on right here, now, what’s right in front of us. Some little wise green guy said something like that I think 

I give you credit.  You can still drum up an emotional spark.  I can’t get my blood pressure up about this anymore.  I’m dead inside.

FFS the best I could raise up at the trade deadline was, hey at least Mitts for Byram was a hockey trade.  Kadri could have elicited a spark.  A bubble of emotional fervor.  A ray of hope that EEE isn’t the framework we are going to try to pursue playoffs under.

Instead I am stuck with debating whether I want to rid myself of 23 minutes of my precious time on earth watching a we signed Jason ####ing Zucker Blue and Gold episode.

 

 

 

I push my fingers into my eyes
It's the only thing that slowly stops the ache.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Night Train said:

That's not much of a risk. Krebs was offered a 11k raise for one year and hadn't signed. He looks like odd man out already. Rosen is AHL . So it's basically a 2nd round picks. 

Sure. Go get him for those peanuts. 

How much is a 34 year old player with 5 years (@ 7 mill a season) left on his contract really worth in a salary cap world?  A deal would most likely be Greenway, Rosen and a draft pick.  Calg gets 2 NHL players and a future prospect.  

Edited September 5 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

28 minutes ago, Weave said:

I give you credit.  You can still drum up an emotional spark.  I can’t get my blood pressure up about this anymore.  I’m dead inside.

FFS the best I could raise up at the trade deadline was, hey at least Mitts for Byram was a hockey trade.  Kadri could have elicited a spark.  A bubble of emotional fervor.  A ray of hope that EEE isn’t the framework we are going to try to pursue playoffs under.

Instead I am stuck with debating whether I want to rid myself of 23 minutes of my precious time on earth watching a we signed Jason ####ing Zucker Blue and Gold episode.

 

 

 

I push my fingers into my eyes
It's the only thing that slowly stops the ache.

 

I see the McLeod trade in a similar vein - it was nice to see a prospect moved for “now” talent even just to see it done.

But you aren’t dead inside, even if it feels like it. The fact you are even still debating watching the blue and golds puts you well beyond the curve in my estimation. You are a great fan.

When we eventually make the playoffs, I promise: 

Oh there you are, Peter

 

Edited September 5 by Thorny

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I see the McLeod trade in a similar vein - it was nice to see a prospect moved for “now” talent even just to see it done.

But you aren’t dead inside, even if it feels like it. The fact you are even still debating watching the blue and golds puts you well beyond the curve in my estimation. You are a great fan.

When we eventually make the playoffs, I promise: 

Oh there you are, Peter

 

Spoiler, I havent watched any of them in probably 2 years.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How much is a 34 year old player with 5 years (@ 7 mill a season) left on his contract really worth in a salary cap world?  A deal would most likely be Greenway, Rosen and a draft pick.  Calg gets 2 NHL players and a future prospect.  

I think Greenway now has an 8 team NTC. There is a reasonable chance that Calgary is a no go for Greenway.