Goal Scoring and the Sabres Current Forwards

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The pp was trash in 22-23 too. It just had like a 6 week period of tage olofsson one timers to mask how awful it was. 

Thank you.  Have been saying that since the spring of '23.  As soon as that magical 6-7 week run was done and teams figured out how to take away the 1 timers, it went back to being the trash it had been at the start of that season.

[bob_sauve28]

14 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Thank you.  Have been saying that since the spring of '23.  As soon as that magical 6-7 week run was done and teams figured out how to take away the 1 timers, it went back to being the trash it had been at the start of that season.

And yet they just kept trying to do it. I sure hope we see some fresh ideas, play, etc on the PP 

[Taro T]

45 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

And yet they just kept trying to do it. I sure hope we see some fresh ideas, play, etc on the PP 

Welcome to why Granato is no longer employed and Ellis is no longer running the PP and off the bench (and should be no longer employed either).  

They didn't just keep trying to do it.  They kept just trying to do it for an entire nother full season.  Still get ticked thinking about how awful the PP was the last 2 seasons.

[French Collection]

7 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

And yet they just kept trying to do it. I sure hope we see some fresh ideas, play, etc on the PP 

I am hoping for Quinn to take the bumper position and watch some footage of Brayden Point and transform the PP. Quick shot, give and go, tipped passes, rebounds and feed open shooters while the focus is on him. He’s got the ability to do it.

[dudacek]

We've talked a lot about whether the top 6 has enough pop, but one of the reasons for that is how little margin for error this group of forwards has.

You can cross your fingers and hope for 30 from Cozens or Quinn, but you can't do that for even half that with most of the bottom 6

• Nick Aube-Kubel has scored 31 goals — in his entire career, 282 NHL games over 6 seasons.
• Sam Lafferty scored 13 last year, 12 the year before and 11 combined in his 3 other partial NHL seasons.
• Jordan Greenway's 10 last year tied his career high
• Peyton Krebs has never scored 20 goals in a single season anywhere, even when he was ripping up junior, it was as a playmaker
• Lukas Rousek has 1 NHL goal. The 16 he scored  2 years ago with the Amerks were his best in any league.
• Beck Malenstyn? 7, 7, 11, 7, 6 — those are his season totals, AHL and NHL combined

If Zucker and Benson aren't scoring, they aren't getting any help filling the nets from these guys

Edited August 26 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 hours ago, dudacek said:

We've talked a lot about whether the top 6 has enough pop, but one of the reasons for that is how little margin for error this group of forwards has.

You can cross your fingers and hope for 30 from Cozens or Quinn, but you can't even do that with most of the bottom 6

• Nick Aube-Kubel has scored 31 goals — in his entire career, 282 NHL games over 6 seasons.
• Sam Lafferty scored 13 last year, 12 the year before and 11 combined in his 3 other partial NHL seasons.
• Jordan Greenway's 10 last year tied his career high
• Peyton Krebs has never scored 20 goals in a single season, even when he was ripping up junior, it was as a playmaker
• Lukas Rousek has 1 NHL goal. The 16 he scored  2 years ago with the Amerks were his best in any league.
• Beck Malenstyn? 7, 7, 11, 7, 6 — those are his season totals, AHL and NHL combined

If Zucker and Benson aren't scoring, they aren't getting any help filling the nets from these guys

You forgot McLeod’s career high 12 goals last season.

I’ve mentioned the gap between the top 2 lines and the bottom 2 lines on numerous occasions.  It’s one of the primary reasons I have been harping on getting another top 6 so we can force down some of the current top 6 fire power to strengthen the 3rd line.  It’s also one of the reasons I’ve been so critical of KA’s plan.  How much more depth offense would the Sabres have with Skinner and Mitts vs McLeod and Zucker.   There is still time and money to salvage the problem.  I don’t know if the answer is Zegras, Farabee or (insert name here), but finding some additional offense somewhere would help.

Edited August 27 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You forgot McLeod’s career high 10 goals last season.

I’ve mentioned the gap between the top 2 lines and the bottom 2 lines on numerous occasions.  It’s one of the primary reasons I have been harping on getting another top 6 so we can force down some of the current top 6 fire power to strengthen the 3rd line.  It’s also one of the reasons I’ve been so critical of KA’s plan.  How much more depth offense would the Sabres have with Skinner and Mitts vs McLeod and Zucker.   There is still time and money to salvage the problem.  I don’t know if the answer is Zegras, Farabee or (insert name here), but finding some additional offense somewhere would help.

McLeod scored 14 in 28 in his last AHL stint, and has 23 in his last 138 NHL games. I think he’s a pretty safe bet for 12 to 15, which is a good number for a bottom-sixer.

The problem to me is the other guys coming behind him if there are injuries or poor performances in the top 6.

I think Jason Zucker is a better 3rd line winger than Skinner because of the versatility of his game. And Jack Quinn is a better top 6 winger than Skinner for the same reason.

I think they are asking a lot of Zach Benson to essentially fill Mittelstadt’s role offensively as the playmaking 2-way middle six swing guy this year, which is the way the roster shapes up to me right now.

Edited August 26 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

McLeod scored 14 in 28 in his last AHL stint, and has 23 in his last 138 NHL games. I think he’s a pretty safe bet for 12 to 15, which is a good number for a bottom-sixer.

The problem to me is the other guys coming behind him if there are injuries or poor performances in the top 6.

I think Jason Zucker is a better 3rd line winger than Skinner because of the versatility of his game. And Jack Quinn is a better top 6 winger than Skinner for the same reason.

I think they are asking a lot of Zach Benson to essentially fill Mittelstadt’s role offensively as the playmaking 2-way middle six swing guy this year, which is the way the roster shapes up to me right now.

Idk, every time I doubt Zach Benson he just proves me wrong so I have an odd level of faith in his ability to be a playmaking winger who is good on the boards. 

[dudacek]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Idk, every time I doubt Zach Benson he just proves me wrong so I have an odd level of faith in his ability to be a playmaking winger who is good on the boards. 

Yep, I go back and forth between this voice and the one that says “but what’s the plan if he can’t?”

But despite their different positions, I’m sticking with the idea that situationally, Benson is the one replacing Mittelstadt.

Quinn, situationally, replaces Skinner and Zucker backfills into the roster spot where Benson was.

McLeod is less about replacing Mitts than he is about addressing a role that was missing on last year’s team.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Yep, I go back and forth between this voice and the one that says “but what’s the plan if he can’t?”

But despite their different positions, I’m sticking with the idea that situationally, Benson is the one replacing Mittelstadt.

Quinn, situationally, replaces Skinner and Zucker backfills into the roster spot where Benson was.

McLeod is less about replacing Mitts than he is about addressing a role that was missing on last year’s team.

I think a line of Benson - Cozens - Quinn is magical mainly because I think Quinn and Benson are so smart with so many tools that it will be difficult to contain them. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think a line of Benson - Cozens - Quinn is magical mainly because I think Quinn and Benson are so smart with so many tools that it will be difficult to contain them. 

I think a fully formed Benson would be so good for Cozens. I think the same about Benson and Thompson.

We shouldn’t have to be relying on a 19-year-old to be a difference maker this year.

[thewookie1]

29 minutes ago, dudacek said:

McLeod scored 14 in 28 in his last AHL stint, and has 23 in his last 138 NHL games. I think he’s a pretty safe bet for 12 to 15, which is a good number for a bottom-sixer.

The problem to me is the other guys coming behind him if there are injuries or poor performances in the top 6.

I think Jason Zucker is a better 3rd line winger than Skinner because of the versatility of his game. And Jack Quinn is a better top 6 winger than Skinner for the same reason.

I think they are asking a lot of Zach Benson to essentially fill Mittelstadt’s role offensively as the playmaking 2-way middle six swing guy this year, which is the way the roster shapes up to me right now.

While neither will truly equal Skinner's production on their own; I'd say Quinn + Zucker should be more effective generally than Skinner + Girgensons.

[PerreaultForever]

20 hours ago, French Collection said:

I am hoping for Quinn to take the bumper position and watch some footage of Brayden Point and transform the PP. Quick shot, give and go, tipped passes, rebounds and feed open shooters while the focus is on him. He’s got the ability to do it.

Weakness at the bumper position (or even in some cases not using that position at all) was a definite problem. Can Quinn be that guy? idk. 

Thompson is still an issue for me. If he doesn't want to be a true net front guy (which he tends not to be) maybe they should forget about his size and move him back to the point. idk, I wish he'd just do his best Dave Andreychuk and get in front and stay there so the goalies can't see nuthin. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

While neither will truly equal Skinner's production on their own; I'd say Quinn + Zucker should be more effective generally than Skinner + Girgensons.

I see no reason why Jack Quinn alone can't have 24g and 22a which was skinner last year or even the 30g 30a that is basically Skinner's average. 

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

We shouldn’t have to be relying on a 19-year-old to be a difference maker this year.

But we also should not turn our back on the fact the kid really might be up to it. Played on PP, killed penalties, was a sound player on ice with huge well of talent. For better or worse going forward, he has earned a spot 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I see no reason why Jack Quinn alone can't have 24g and 22a which was skinner last year or even the 30g 30a that is basically Skinner's average. 

Hence why I combined Skinner with Girgs About 40g + 35a  If Quinn can get 24g 22 a that means Zucker only needs 16g and 13a to even it out. Plus Zucker and Quinn are both better at defensive hockey than Skinner while less than Girgs in a sense thus better spreading the talent.

[nfreeman]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Weakness at the bumper position (or even in some cases not using that position at all) was a definite problem. Can Quinn be that guy? idk. 

Thompson is still an issue for me. If he doesn't want to be a true net front guy (which he tends not to be) maybe they should forget about his size and move him back to the point. idk, I wish he'd just do his best Dave Andreychuk and get in front and stay there so the goalies can't see nuthin. 

Waitaminute.   You think he’d be better in front on the PP than in his office on the left half-wall?  I think that is the perfect spot for him.  

[PerreaultForever]

49 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Waitaminute.   You think he’d be better in front on the PP than in his office on the left half-wall?  I think that is the perfect spot for him.  

It depends how you are running your PP and where everybody is. That left half wall position isn't that dangerous if your primary point man is also left side. It means all your shots are likely coming from the same area and the PK can focus on that. If you have 2 snipers, one down low on the left closer to the goal and the other off wing on the right point (and he can move in as well) now Dahlin can go right or left and keep the D more honest. The snipes come from both sides with another guy rock solid in front and the last one mobile and able to come out front or go behind the net. He's QB 2 in essence. 

More motion, more cross ice passing rather than perimeter and a heavy net front presence. So if Thompson won't do net front then yes, I'm trying him on the opposite point as a sniper rather than the passer they were trying with Cozens over there. 

Consider how many PP goals Olafsson got there when we had Eichel as the playmaker on the other side and Reinhart nearer the net. 

[LGR4GM]

They need to run the pp from low to high, not high to low. 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

They need to run the pp from low to high, not high to low. 

We used to do that with Eichel, no? When we had that old pp coach? Think he was on the wild at one point. Doesn’t he run the pp from below the goal line almost? Can’t remember the dude’s name 

Bob Woods maybe? 

[bob_sauve28]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

Bob Woods maybe? 

Mike Hunt, maybe? 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Mike Hunt, maybe? 

Helen Hunt, more likely 

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Thorny said:

Helen Hunt, more likely 

Goodwill Hunting more likely still

[Pimlach]

On 8/26/2024 at 1:54 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Weakness at the bumper position (or even in some cases not using that position at all) was a definite problem. Can Quinn be that guy? idk. 

Thompson is still an issue for me. If he doesn't want to be a true net front guy (which he tends not to be) maybe they should forget about his size and move him back to the point. idk, I wish he'd just do his best Dave Andreychuk and get in front and stay there so the goalies can't see nuthin. 

They really did not ever use Tage as a net front guy.   Granato never saw TNT as an Andreychuk type of player.   He had Benson in front of the net more than Thompson.  

Hoping Ruff can run more than one PP formation because Granato and his staff did the same thing for two years.  

[nfreeman]

On 8/27/2024 at 12:24 AM, PerreaultForever said:

It depends how you are running your PP and where everybody is. That left half wall position isn't that dangerous if your primary point man is also left side. It means all your shots are likely coming from the same area and the PK can focus on that. If you have 2 snipers, one down low on the left closer to the goal and the other off wing on the right point (and he can move in as well) now Dahlin can go right or left and keep the D more honest. The snipes come from both sides with another guy rock solid in front and the last one mobile and able to come out front or go behind the net. He's QB 2 in essence. 

More motion, more cross ice passing rather than perimeter and a heavy net front presence. So if Thompson won't do net front then yes, I'm trying him on the opposite point as a sniper rather than the passer they were trying with Cozens over there. 

Consider how many PP goals Olafsson got there when we had Eichel as the playmaker on the other side and Reinhart nearer the net. 

Well, I agree that they need more movement  and that all of the shots shouldn't come from the same general area, but still.  I think Dahlin can and does roam and shoot from the entire blue line, not just the left side, and that the Sabres, like most teams, only have one "point" guy on the PP, with the other 4 closer in (right and left half-walls, slot and behind the net).

I think they need a better plan, with more motion, and better playmaking from at least 2 of the right half-wall, slot and behind-net guys.  (I think TT and Dahlin both excel at playmaking, but VO and Skinner were both lousy at it.) 

My first choice at this point would be Quinn at the right half-wall, Tuch in the slot and Benson or Cozens behind the net.  That lineup, with good coaching, will be much better than last year's PP.