How Much Does Size Matter in the NHL ?

[...]

Benson is special. His size doesn't matter; he plays large.

I could totally see him doing this:

 

On Quinn, I can excuse anyone who thought we were getting a skill-guy based on the draft scouting.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2020-nhl-draft/player-profiles/Jack-Quinn

 

On the roster last year we had: Skinner, Olofsson, and Jost (not to mention Power, but we're not talking about D) and Savoie waiting in the wings. Robinson and Greenway were major here-to-assert-physical-presence disappointments. Thompson is huge but the last thing anyone would call threatening on the ice.

The impression of having too many "skill" guys is easily justified, although skill is synonymous with "soft" in this particular context.

 

Of course, the right type of player is what we're after. Benson is a standard. But you're not going to find an effective Tkachuk-type of individual player everywhere - he's special, too. 

What you can do, and what Florida did, was assemble a roster that elevates each other's game, including the physical game. Samson's PIM last season were nearly triple prior seasons. Also, we have a coach now who we can be reasonably assured will promote a genuine "tougher to play against" type of game.

There may have been so much change since Meatballs was fired that we really have no idea what kind of cake it is we're baking here despite knowing the ingredients.

 

[matter2003]

Just like with women, it plays a certain role that is beneficial.
 

Also just like with women, if you don't know what to do with your size and are not a technician that puts in the work, it won't be very useful to you.

Edited July 19 by matter2003

[PerreaultForever]

Obviously it's more about playing large than being large, but size, like speed, is an advantage that cannot be overlooked. 

You want size on your D, more for reach these days but also for strength. Sticks in lanes is a big part of team D these days and reach helps a lot with that as does tying up guys in front. 

You want size in front of the net for your forwards as big screens better but tenaciousness (like Benson) is also effective there. Size in the corners and along the boards helps a lot, but doesn't really matter in open ice. 

Ideally you want size and speed. If you are fast but small you will get "bullied" in the playoffs. If you are big and slow you might be forechecked into disarray and your size won't help you. You want a team with balance, both elements, and complementary pieces on lines that work together with everyone doing their job. 

[Night Train]

Ideal but overblown. 

[#freejame]

All things equal, give me a stout team with a bunch of big *****. 5’11 to 6’3” is the sweet spot, but the size of the trunk matters more than the height. 

[inkman]

I think it comes down to not having too many of the same type of player. Can any one individual, regardless of size, perform well in the NHL?  Absolutely.  
 

Do you want 14 5’8” 175 lbs forwards on your team? Probably not.  

[mjd1001]

To me size matters in one way that I have noticed for the Sabres....Penalty killing (and yes I have mentioned this before)

When you have 'smaller' guys, they tend to chase a bit in penalty killing, and to me, the majority of goals scored on you when you are short handed happen when guys are out of position 'chasing', creating openings for the other team. When you stay disciplined and don't chase the puck, the other team can have possession in your end for a long time, passing it around but eventually they might get frustrated and just take a perimeter shot that your goalie easily handles.

So how does size matter?  Put Tage and Greenway up front, Samuelsson in the back (and get another tall guy with a large reach), and they cover more ground with their reach (and usually the taller guys have a longer stick which, along with their reach, makes the ground they cover even greater). Now, we are talking about a few inches right? Well a few inches on each side and it makes a difference.  Not only are the more likely to break up risky passes into the middle, but they aren't likely to chase as much, and to me, with the Sabres, THAT made a difference in their PK.

Other than that, I'll take a smaller guy that hits hard 5 times a game in a way that impacts the play over a bigger guy that hits hard 4 times a game.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Why trade him?  Because if a team is going to provide Sabres somebody like a Zegras, they are very likely going to want him coming back in return as part of the package.

 

Personally, DON'T WANT HIM TRADED.  But, if Adams makes a trade for a 2W am expecting he's going to be a big portion of the price to make that happen.

Agree. But I don't like creating  another roster hole by making a trade. 

[gilbert11]

Size always matters.  😉

[WhenWillItEnd66]

I do agree..... size only partially matters. Smaller lighter forwards are easier to move off of the puck by larger stronger dmen, but a smaller stronger forward would fare better. There are also the cases of larger players who play small.... Power and such... Big does not always mean hard to play against. Size and strength when used correctly makes it hard to play against. Benson is a great example of a smaller player that can do the same. It all boils down to the makeup of the player. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

It's not the size that matters, but how one uses it.

That's what she / he always says.  It's truer than true.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Size matters.  As much as we all like Benson, he does get knocked off the puck and that will continue.  Also no one wants a team full of 5-9 to 5-11 guys.  They wouldn’t fair very well.  

Still this is kind of an argument about interior vs perimeter play.  So far, the Sabres have been a perimeter team with few guys, including big guys like TNT, willing to drove the net and even fewer forwards willing to embrace back checking.   This is a question of heart.  Benson has the heart to do what’s necessary.  I question whether many of his teammates have the same commitment.

[Mr Peabody]

Hopefully someone gave our guys an upper body workout regimen for the off season. 

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Size matters.  As much as we all like Benson, he does get knocked off the puck and that will continue.  Also no one wants a team full of 5-9 to 5-11 guys.  They wouldn’t fair very well.  

Still this is kind of an argument about interior vs perimeter play.  So far, the Sabres have been a perimeter team with few guys, including big guys like TNT, willing to drove the net and even fewer forwards willing to embrace back checking.   This is a question of heart.  Benson has the heart to do what’s necessary.  I question whether many of his teammates have the same commitment.

When 1 or 2 guys play a perimeter game, it's heart.  When all but 1 or 2 play a perimeter game, it's coaching/strategy.  It was the worst of the Patrick Roy Avs "we're a puck possesstion" team right before he got canned there.  They held the puck but never scored because they never shot & never worked towards high danger shots.  Granato added a focus on cutting down on goals against "WITHOUT changing the system" (his words).  That gets accomplished by not forcing the puck into the slot where it's going to get turned over a lot (it's also going to result in less high danger scoring chances, which is not a good thing).

Let's see how these guys fare under Ruff before declaring most all of them heartless.  Maybe?

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

On 7/17/2024 at 7:45 AM, inkman said:

So Compher and Lemieux kinda fall into that category of size (average to above average) and attitude. Just like their defensive mates with size and attitude (Borgen & McNabb), the Sabres never value these players and send them packing leaving giant holes on their roster.  Imagine if we still had the aforementioned players to go along with the skill on the current roster.  
 

It really makes little sense that a grinder like Kevyn Adams would be hell bent on only acquiring skill guys, with no thought of grit in his top 9 players.  

Yes, but it looks like he is definitely listening to Ruff…. And this draft the top two forwards taken (Helenius and Zeimer) are known as fighters for the puck and players that go to the net (ie - they play with grit)  Plus the rebuilt bottom lines are going to help immensely….

I sure hope the author of this post is right about Benson and Quinn. They are extremely key players for us this season. I think Quinn needs to get stronger as to avoid injuries better as does Benson as he becomes better at everything.

It sez right here if both players do fine this year, the Sabres are in the playoffs. Both have tremendous skill. One is very young. The other is young and needs to not get injured. If Benson grows his game and Quinn stays healthy I see Quinn approaching  40 goals.

I see Benson getting 15g and 32a….easy. Cozens will, of course, also have a great season and a bounce back season as a result…

I have faith in the first line. The third  and 4th lines to do their jobs. I love what the D could be this year. With the D making a nice jump, the 3rd and 4th lines doing the yeoman’s work, I see our goalies really exploding onto the scene.

But that very young 3rd line must prove to be scorers and solid two-way players  with a healthy degree of consistency for everything to click together…. It all really works together. Everyone has to do their job.

And I’d it’s Kulich and Rosen’s job this year (if no trades are made) to back up that top six….So they have to gain some real muscle and find more consistency (but it is also around time they did just that) so I think they have a really decent shot at doing just that…

Because there will be injuries…. It’s part of learning process this season too…. Learning to play thru injuries in every respect.

To play and play well with pain. And if they can’t go, the kids come in expecting to score and to not bring down the line. Plus the linemates playing must not letdown with someone out. Do their jobs. I think Lindy will make things clearer and clearer for everyone as the year goes on.

i think we’re ready to learn a lot this year and will. I think we have a playoff team right now (if Benny and Jack can make those leaps!)

For me, I see it all coming together…

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

On 7/17/2024 at 7:11 AM, LGR4GM said:

A lot, if not all, of my fellow posters believe that I don't think size matters. That isn't true. Size can matter but as I repeat a lot size does not = toughness/grit. I think this video aligns with most of my thoughts on the subject and really betrays why I think a player like Quinn or maybe a better example, Benson, are going to be excellent. 

First, everyone pay attention the average height of an NHL forward is 6' and for defense it is 6'1" so when I see ppl say the Sabres are small, I know they mean "don't play with physicality" which would be correct. Buffalo's starting 6 defenders will only feature 1 sub 6' player in Clifton. They haven't drafted a notable sub 6'1" defender in the last 3 drafts. The top of that pool is Novikov (6'4"), Komarov (6'3"), Strbak (6'2"), Kleber (6'5") and either Osburne (6'1" who will be 6'2" or 3" when he grows up) or McCarthy (6'2"). This goes with a group of 3 defenders all signed for multiple years that are 6'3" 6'4" and 6'6". 

But I don't want to talk about defense. The main criticism is leveled at the forwards. They are constantly labeled "small" but again what ppl really mean is "not physical" and what is really important is that size doesn't = toughness/grit. Which brings us to this video and 2 Sabres forwards. First is Jack Quinn, the 6'1" guy who has for right or wrong been labeled injury prone. He has average size and is approaching average weight, so what makes him IMPO effective and to a degree gritty? Jack Quinn is very very smart, he anticipates plays and also manipulates defenders to gain time and time = space. In the video they talk about Bedard cutting the hands of Hedman and Quinn does this a lot. Instead of just trying to go around a guy, once you get a step you cut through their hands breaking them at the elbow and putting the player on your back. This gives you leverage and body positioning. Quinn does this. This alone is just a thing but he also chains this with anticipation. If Jack Quinn is cutting your hands it is because he needs that space for something. He also does all the high end reads away from the puck. He times when he enters the crease and where he does it. He scans a lot in all zones. He constantly adjusts to what the defense shows him while also thinking of ways to change that look. He is average in height and weight but he is excellent at hockey IQ. Hockey IQ in another thread was tossed out in some contexts as just what you say when a guy is not very good but somehow still does okay. That isn't accurate. Hockey IQ is the ability to read the game quickly and consistently. That is why Jack Quinn at 6'1" is going to be just fine even when 6'6" Zadorov is bearing down on him. 

Let's talk about my favorite player. Zach Benson. I was not high enough on Zach Benson in his draft year because again, size can matter and I absolutely worry about Benson. He's 5'10" and that creates a couple of disadvantages, reach, leverage, space. Benson has less reach, just like in a sword fight he has to get inside his opponents reach, and because of all of this he plays with less space. Rasmus Dahlin occasionally will just shift the puck out to one side and go around a guy because with his reach, he can do that. Benson though will always be closer, will always have to play tighter, because he doesn't have the length. Again, it isn't that I don't think size matters, I just think it can be ignored in some instances. 

Why is Zach Benson my favorite. Manipulation, planning, insane hockey IQ. It took a bit of time but when we reached March, Zach Benson was turning the corner. I split it at March 6th versus Toronto where Benson did nothing but I gave the 2 weekend games of March 2 and 3 to the previous block of time. From Oct to March 3, Benson played 51 games and had 18pts, 6g, 12a for a 0.35ppg. In the games from March 3-April 15, Benson played 20 games and had 5g, 7a, for 0.6ppg. I believe that as February turned into March, Benson's ability to process the game finally started to catch up. Some of the ideas he had in those first 50 games he could execute on in the last 20 because he had figured out the pace. His hockey brain had the timing down better and that came with experience. The manipulations that made him just a joy to watch in jr started appearing more and more and were successful. He will lift your stick, steal the puck, cut your hands, lean into you and then suddenly the puck is gone and a teammate has a prime chance. Benson is excellent and taking pucks from the walls to the center of the ice because of this. He will cut back or fake cut backs, then show shot or pass only to do the opposite. These skills are what make Benson effective, he is smart, thinks lightning fast, and has the hands to do pretty much all of his ideas. So when it comes to his size, it doesn't matter because on a micro scale, he does so many tiny little things so so well, that being small isn't as limiting to him. He gets inside that reach and then uses his low center of gravity to gain leverage. His stick checking is truly elite. His edgework is maybe just below elite. The one thing he doesn't have is blazing speed but he is quick. All of these allow him to use that brain of his to be effective even without being 6'3" 205lbs. In his case size doesn't equal toughness, brains = toughness. 

Which brings us to the last player, Konsta Helenius. I was disappointed when the initial reaction from many, not all, was uhg another small forward. It told me you had never watched Helenius play hockey. Helenius is similar to Benson in some ways. He has a lot those ideas to get inside the opponents stick, cut the hands, use fakes to prepare passing lanes, and then deliver passes or shots. His hands are not as good as Benson but his shot is probably better. Helenius is viewed as small simply because his stat doesn't read 6' but that again misses the important part, Helenius is smart. His on ice positioning is very good, he checks well, and he knows what he wants to do with the puck before he gets it and where to go after he gets rid of it. His hockey brain processes the game well and that more than makes up for his size. Helenius is also 190lbs which is more than what Cozens weighed when he got to the NHL. It is also the exact weight of JJ Peterka who is 22. My point is we focus a lot on height but weight is also important here. Sure, a 6'4" player should theoretically be able to add more muscle because they have more places to add muscle but if a shorter player is the same weight, are they really smaller? Again reach and space are the key components against this. My point is that Helenius is not small but average and he has a far above average processing speed, like Quinn and Benson. That is going to make him an effective player more so than his height. 

Does size matter? Yes, on defense in particular it gives your opponent less space and makes you harder to go around (exceptions exist obviously). Mass gives you more staying power and potentially more strength to outleverage smaller players along walls or in front. However, I agree with this videos take on hockey IQ. Players with good or better IQ tend to negate size advantages regularly and with ease. Zach Benson was a 18yr old rookie in the NHL who was Buffalo's 2nd best checking forward? We focus on size because we see clear examples of when it matters (a forward like Benson is shoved off the puck or boxed out in front) but it is harder to understand and analyze iq because it means a lot more different things. When Benson or Quinn cut back along the half way, fake a pass, cut the hands of the defender and either shoot or pass to an open player, that is a complex series of events that show IQ. It is why they are and will be successful. The game is fast and physical. The hockey IQ of a player like McDavid, Bedard, Benson, or Quinn allows that fast physical game to move slower and to bend to one's will. Again size doesn't equal toughness, but lack of hockey IQ (Risto) doesn't get made up for with size until we start getting to extreme's and even then, Logan Stanley isn't that good at hockey. 

Do I wish all our guys had Benson's skillset with Tuch's size, yes. But that doesn't mean that Benson, or Quinn, or Helenius, or whoever will "play small" because they are small or won't be as impactful as someone bigger. I am positive many will not agree with me but I think IQ mixed with determination, trumps size mixed with average other stuff. I do value size, I just don't only value it. 

Everything you say is true but at the same time Mario Lemieux isn’t Mario Lemieux if he isn’t 6’4” 235#…. You have to draft considering so much but fight in the dog is more important than size but ideally you come up with a few guys on your team that have both.

I still remember one playoff matchup with Lemieux and we just could not keep him from doing what he does. He made our kind of tough, kind of big D-men look like little kids. It was so embarrassing….😳….. Jay 

McKee ran him (Warrener was already out hurt) to blindside him and McKee tripped on the way to him, fell awkwardly and on his way down, glanced Mario’s jersey with his stick and Mario turns around, looks, sees McKee on the ground, looks quizzical, then skates away….

Im really liking what the Sabres have done this year with: Free Agency, the draft, and especially knowing all of very young player are now one year older, a little stronger and a little more experienced. I’m very happy to be a Sabres fan at this time. I think the suffering is over and we crawl out of the basement this year and stay there. I really do. However, I’m still waiting for Buffalo’s Mario Lemieux….

On the plus side, I really do believe that should a great forward become available, there’s a real good chance Buffalo gets him. Although if Ottawa gets rid of Tkachuk we may be already out the running just by being in the same division.

But we are definitely trying and ready to pull off a four or three for one trade I think. Maybe even a two for one….

Say Power and Kulich for a truly great forward to make our #1 line truly elite. But it could be their looking to trade three forwards for one? Perhaps Kulich, Rosen and Helenius for a top premium forward in his prime? If there’s one worth it, I don’t even know….Anybody in the West out there maybe on the block soon that might be worth it?

[JP51]

Uwe Krupp, Mike Wilson, Adam Creighton, Tyler Myers , Owen Power... all big dudes... I would rather go into the corner with any of them then Matt Barnaby lets say... So yes you need size but you need a balance Skill, Grit and Size... without it you are likely in the well... Sabres situation... 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, JP51 said:

Uwe Krupp, Mike Wilson, Adam Creighton, Tyler Myers , Owen Power... all big dudes... I would rather go into the corner with any of them then Matt Barnaby lets say... So yes you need size but you need a balance Skill, Grit and Size... without it you are likely in the well... Sabres situation... 

Agree. Then we have a mid sized guy, like Clifton, and he hits people hard and clean.  I want guys that finish checks but don’t take themselves out if the play.  
 

Big helps, and I think we have good size, but big does not necessarily mean tough.  Some of the guys we just added are big and fast and gritty.  Can’t wait to see how Ruff uses this line up.  
 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Agree. Then we have a mid sized guy, like Clifton, and he hits people hard and clean.  I want guys that finish checks but don’t take themselves out if the play.  
 

Big helps, and I think we have good size, but big does not necessarily mean tough.  Some of the guys we just added are big and fast and gritty.  Can’t wait to see how Ruff uses this line up.  
 

The above bolded might be the single biggest reason why Risto ended up being so bad for this team, he took himself out of the play so often.

Its also a reason why Patrice Bergeron was so good for Boston. I posted this a year or two ago, but there was a great article with video showing his play, how he didn't hit a lot and often time he would turn away from a check at the last minute....but the reason he did that is he had this unreal ability to sense when finishing a check would slow him down even that half step from getting back into the pay in his own zone...vs not.  Its almost like he had this magical calculator in his head that, right before a potential check, calculated the odds of him getting back into the play quicker than the guy he was going to hit or not, and made that decision for him.

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, JP51 said:

Uwe Krupp, Mike Wilson, Adam Creighton, Tyler Myers , Owen Power... all big dudes... I would rather go into the corner with any of them then Matt Barnaby lets say... So yes you need size but you need a balance Skill, Grit and Size... without it you are likely in the well... Sabres situation... 

It's not about big=tough any more though (overall). The advantage for the big guys is reach and strength on stick. Larry Playfair types can still play in a Matt Rempe type role, but the real thing about size advantage is reach and puck control, not that old school toughness thing.  Toughness helps obviously, but if people just think big means hitting people they are missing it. 

Edited July 20 by PerreaultForever

[Wyldnwoody44]

[North Buffalo]

Agree all things equal... smarts, grit, skill, speed, edge work then size matters... height isnt be all end all... thickness is important though especially in legs...

[JP51]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:08 PM, PerreaultForever said:

It's not about big=tough any more though (overall). The advantage for the big guys is reach and strength on stick. Larry Playfair types can still play in a Matt Rempe type role, but the real thing about size advantage is reach and puck control, not that old school toughness thing.  Toughness helps obviously, but if people just think big means hitting people they are missing it. 

agreed (although I love you mentioned Larry Playfair one of my all time favorites. ) And agreed, its not about fighting... its about operating in and taking away space. Its about puck control in the corners and willingness to go in and win the battle to get it. Dont need to fight but the ability to impose your physical will in those small and tough to get spaces is an important piece... 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:34 PM, Pimlach said:

Agree. Then we have a mid sized guy, like Clifton, and he hits people hard and clean.  I want guys that finish checks but don’t take themselves out if the play.  
 

Big helps, and I think we have good size, but big does not necessarily mean tough.  Some of the guys we just added are big and fast and gritty.  Can’t wait to see how Ruff uses this line up.  
 

absolutely, and they dont need to necessarily fight per se... but they need to operate in tough areas and small spaces... and they need to physically take away space. I will also say again... we need to win faceoffs more often, it is better to be chased than chase. 

[dudacek]

On 7/19/2024 at 6:08 PM, PerreaultForever said:

It's not about big=tough any more though (overall). The advantage for the big guys is reach and strength on stick. Larry Playfair types can still play in a Matt Rempe type role, but the real thing about size advantage is reach and puck control, not that old school toughness thing.  Toughness helps obviously, but if people just think big means hitting people they are missing it. 

So guys like Power and Tuch and Thompson do count in this discussion?

Im so confused.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

So guys like Power and Tuch and Thompson do count in this discussion?

Im so confused.

Of course they do. Thompson most definitely uses his reach for puck control much more than his bigness for physicality. That's why Granato got it right on him turning him into a center. He was awkward and ineffective as a power forward because he doesn't really like to hit, fight or be a big tough guy. Power is too soft for a D man (so far) but his reach definitely helps him and Tuch plays net front but is also a puck control guy. Size helps all of their games and none of them are "big" guys in the sense people think of as "tough" guys. 

The word "big" is the problem. It's never as simple as to say speed/skill vs. size. The players are always combinations of all factors and the more of these things they have in one body the better they are. There aren't any bad players who are big, fast and skilled are there.