How Much Does Size Matter in the NHL ?

[LGR4GM]

A lot, if not all, of my fellow posters believe that I don't think size matters. That isn't true. Size can matter but as I repeat a lot size does not = toughness/grit. I think this video aligns with most of my thoughts on the subject and really betrays why I think a player like Quinn or maybe a better example, Benson, are going to be excellent. 

First, everyone pay attention the average height of an NHL forward is 6' and for defense it is 6'1" so when I see ppl say the Sabres are small, I know they mean "don't play with physicality" which would be correct. Buffalo's starting 6 defenders will only feature 1 sub 6' player in Clifton. They haven't drafted a notable sub 6'1" defender in the last 3 drafts. The top of that pool is Novikov (6'4"), Komarov (6'3"), Strbak (6'2"), Kleber (6'5") and either Osburne (6'1" who will be 6'2" or 3" when he grows up) or McCarthy (6'2"). This goes with a group of 3 defenders all signed for multiple years that are 6'3" 6'4" and 6'6". 

But I don't want to talk about defense. The main criticism is leveled at the forwards. They are constantly labeled "small" but again what ppl really mean is "not physical" and what is really important is that size doesn't = toughness/grit. Which brings us to this video and 2 Sabres forwards. First is Jack Quinn, the 6'1" guy who has for right or wrong been labeled injury prone. He has average size and is approaching average weight, so what makes him IMPO effective and to a degree gritty? Jack Quinn is very very smart, he anticipates plays and also manipulates defenders to gain time and time = space. In the video they talk about Bedard cutting the hands of Hedman and Quinn does this a lot. Instead of just trying to go around a guy, once you get a step you cut through their hands breaking them at the elbow and putting the player on your back. This gives you leverage and body positioning. Quinn does this. This alone is just a thing but he also chains this with anticipation. If Jack Quinn is cutting your hands it is because he needs that space for something. He also does all the high end reads away from the puck. He times when he enters the crease and where he does it. He scans a lot in all zones. He constantly adjusts to what the defense shows him while also thinking of ways to change that look. He is average in height and weight but he is excellent at hockey IQ. Hockey IQ in another thread was tossed out in some contexts as just what you say when a guy is not very good but somehow still does okay. That isn't accurate. Hockey IQ is the ability to read the game quickly and consistently. That is why Jack Quinn at 6'1" is going to be just fine even when 6'6" Zadorov is bearing down on him. 

Let's talk about my favorite player. Zach Benson. I was not high enough on Zach Benson in his draft year because again, size can matter and I absolutely worry about Benson. He's 5'10" and that creates a couple of disadvantages, reach, leverage, space. Benson has less reach, just like in a sword fight he has to get inside his opponents reach, and because of all of this he plays with less space. Rasmus Dahlin occasionally will just shift the puck out to one side and go around a guy because with his reach, he can do that. Benson though will always be closer, will always have to play tighter, because he doesn't have the length. Again, it isn't that I don't think size matters, I just think it can be ignored in some instances. 

Why is Zach Benson my favorite. Manipulation, planning, insane hockey IQ. It took a bit of time but when we reached March, Zach Benson was turning the corner. I split it at March 6th versus Toronto where Benson did nothing but I gave the 2 weekend games of March 2 and 3 to the previous block of time. From Oct to March 3, Benson played 51 games and had 18pts, 6g, 12a for a 0.35ppg. In the games from March 3-April 15, Benson played 20 games and had 5g, 7a, for 0.6ppg. I believe that as February turned into March, Benson's ability to process the game finally started to catch up. Some of the ideas he had in those first 50 games he could execute on in the last 20 because he had figured out the pace. His hockey brain had the timing down better and that came with experience. The manipulations that made him just a joy to watch in jr started appearing more and more and were successful. He will lift your stick, steal the puck, cut your hands, lean into you and then suddenly the puck is gone and a teammate has a prime chance. Benson is excellent and taking pucks from the walls to the center of the ice because of this. He will cut back or fake cut backs, then show shot or pass only to do the opposite. These skills are what make Benson effective, he is smart, thinks lightning fast, and has the hands to do pretty much all of his ideas. So when it comes to his size, it doesn't matter because on a micro scale, he does so many tiny little things so so well, that being small isn't as limiting to him. He gets inside that reach and then uses his low center of gravity to gain leverage. His stick checking is truly elite. His edgework is maybe just below elite. The one thing he doesn't have is blazing speed but he is quick. All of these allow him to use that brain of his to be effective even without being 6'3" 205lbs. In his case size doesn't equal toughness, brains = toughness. 

Which brings us to the last player, Konsta Helenius. I was disappointed when the initial reaction from many, not all, was uhg another small forward. It told me you had never watched Helenius play hockey. Helenius is similar to Benson in some ways. He has a lot those ideas to get inside the opponents stick, cut the hands, use fakes to prepare passing lanes, and then deliver passes or shots. His hands are not as good as Benson but his shot is probably better. Helenius is viewed as small simply because his stat doesn't read 6' but that again misses the important part, Helenius is smart. His on ice positioning is very good, he checks well, and he knows what he wants to do with the puck before he gets it and where to go after he gets rid of it. His hockey brain processes the game well and that more than makes up for his size. Helenius is also 190lbs which is more than what Cozens weighed when he got to the NHL. It is also the exact weight of JJ Peterka who is 22. My point is we focus a lot on height but weight is also important here. Sure, a 6'4" player should theoretically be able to add more muscle because they have more places to add muscle but if a shorter player is the same weight, are they really smaller? Again reach and space are the key components against this. My point is that Helenius is not small but average and he has a far above average processing speed, like Quinn and Benson. That is going to make him an effective player more so than his height. 

Does size matter? Yes, on defense in particular it gives your opponent less space and makes you harder to go around (exceptions exist obviously). Mass gives you more staying power and potentially more strength to outleverage smaller players along walls or in front. However, I agree with this videos take on hockey IQ. Players with good or better IQ tend to negate size advantages regularly and with ease. Zach Benson was a 18yr old rookie in the NHL who was Buffalo's 2nd best checking forward? We focus on size because we see clear examples of when it matters (a forward like Benson is shoved off the puck or boxed out in front) but it is harder to understand and analyze iq because it means a lot more different things. When Benson or Quinn cut back along the half way, fake a pass, cut the hands of the defender and either shoot or pass to an open player, that is a complex series of events that show IQ. It is why they are and will be successful. The game is fast and physical. The hockey IQ of a player like McDavid, Bedard, Benson, or Quinn allows that fast physical game to move slower and to bend to one's will. Again size doesn't equal toughness, but lack of hockey IQ (Risto) doesn't get made up for with size until we start getting to extreme's and even then, Logan Stanley isn't that good at hockey. 

Do I wish all our guys had Benson's skillset with Tuch's size, yes. But that doesn't mean that Benson, or Quinn, or Helenius, or whoever will "play small" because they are small or won't be as impactful as someone bigger. I am positive many will not agree with me but I think IQ mixed with determination, trumps size mixed with average other stuff. I do value size, I just don't only value it. 

[Flashsabre]

The Size debate is even more ridiculous at the goalie position. I watched Day 2 of the draft and one of the comments for a goalie that was just drafted was “He doesn’t have ideal size for a goalie at 6’2”😳

The biggest issue is NHL scouts don’t even know what they are looking at when they scout goalies. The fallback now is to just draft the biggest kid and pray he works out.

[inkman]

If the Sabres would just draft or acquire forwards (this off-season they did, albeit, bottom 6 role players) with both size and attitude, none of this would even be a conversation.  Instead, the Sabres have spent high draft pick after high draft pick on finesse players.  Almost all were good draft value and look like they will be good NHL players.  But it’s created a roster of almost all finesse, no jam.  When was the last time the Sabres drafted a forward in the first couple rounds with these traits?  Zack Kassian?  And look how he turned out.  

[thewookie1]

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

If the Sabres would just draft or acquire forwards (this off-season they did, albeit, bottom 6 role players) with both size and attitude, none of this would even be a conversation.  Instead, the Sabres have spent high draft pick after high draft pick on finesse players.  Almost all were good draft value and look like they will be good NHL players.  But it’s created a roster of almost all finesse, no jam.  When was the last time the Sabres drafted a forward in the first couple rounds with these traits?  Zack Kassian?  And look how he turned out.  

Kassian was rather horrible, 4th line player who besides one good playoff next to McDavid hopped around the league.

[inkman]

Just now, thewookie1 said:

Kassian was rather horrible, 4th line player who besides one good playoff next to McDavid hopped around the league.

Yes I was implying that with my last sentence but thanks for spelling it out for the simple folk. 

[inkman]

So Compher and Lemieux kinda fall into that category of size (average to above average) and attitude. Just like their defensive mates with size and attitude (Borgen & McNabb), the Sabres never value these players and send them packing leaving giant holes on their roster.  Imagine if we still had the aforementioned players to go along with the skill on the current roster.  
 

It really makes little sense that a grinder like Kevyn Adams would be hell bent on only acquiring skill guys, with no thought of grit in his top 9 players.  

[LGR4GM]

24 minutes ago, inkman said:

If the Sabres would just draft or acquire forwards (this off-season they did, albeit, bottom 6 role players) with both size and attitude, none of this would even be a conversation.  Instead, the Sabres have spent high draft pick after high draft pick on finesse players.  Almost all were good draft value and look like they will be good NHL players.  But it’s created a roster of almost all finesse, no jam.  When was the last time the Sabres drafted a forward in the first couple rounds with these traits?  Zack Kassian?  And look how he turned out.  

Straight up untrue. Zach Benson and Konsta Helenius are not and never have been finesse players. Jack Quinn is not a finesse player. Also the second bolded is just hilarious nonsense. JJP, Quinn, and Benson are basically the only forwards we have drafted that are on the NHL roster under this current era of drafting.  

11 minutes ago, inkman said:

So Compher and Lemieux kinda fall into that category of size (average to above average) and attitude. Just like their defensive mates with size and attitude (Borgen & McNabb), the Sabres never value these players and send them packing leaving giant holes on their roster.  Imagine if we still had the aforementioned players to go along with the skill on the current roster.  
 

It really makes little sense that a grinder like Kevyn Adams would be hell bent on only acquiring skill guys, with no thought of grit in his top 9 players.  

Again, this isn't true. I have explained in detail why it is true so let's invert that. You claim Buffalo only acquires skill guys and only drafts skill guys high. Tell me who they are and why you feel they are finesse players. 

[LGR4GM]

Let's just look at Sabres highly drafted forwards since 2020, AKA the Adams Era:

Peterka, Quinn, Rosen, Poltapov, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Benson, Wahlberg, Helenius, Ziemer.

Which of these players are "all finesse no jam"? 

[inkman]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Straight up untrue. Zach Benson and Konsta Helenius are not and never have been finesse players. Jack Quinn is not a finesse player. Also the second bolded is just hilarious nonsense. JJP, Quinn, and Benson are basically the only forwards we have drafted that are on the NHL roster under this current era of drafting.  

Again, this isn't true. I have explained in detail why it is true so let's invert that. You claim Buffalo only acquires skill guys and only drafts skill guys high. Tell me who they are and why you feel they are finesse players. 

If you are going to categorize players who play with tenacity as “gritty” players, then we’ll never agree.  I love Quinn and Benson.  They aren’t Matthew Tkachuk.   I want guys on the team that physically intimidate.  You don’t care about that.  Fine.  I do. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

If you are going to categorize players who play with tenacity as “gritty” players, then we’ll never agree.  I love Quinn and Benson.  They aren’t Matthew Tkachuk.   I want guys on the team that physically intimidate.  You don’t care about that.  Fine.  I do. 

You don't get to label everyone who doesn't play like Tkachuk as "finesse" that is absurd. 

Also, you didn't answer the question. Which of the players we drafted are  "all finesse no jam"?

[inkman]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Let's just look at Sabres highly drafted forwards since 2020, AKA the Adams Era:

Peterka, Quinn, Rosen, Poltapov, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Benson, Wahlberg, Helenius, Ziemer.

Which of these players are "all finesse no jam"? 

Lots of tenacious players, outside of Wahlberg I don’t think I’d fear for my safety going into the corner with anyone else on the list. 
 

This doesn’t mean those players wouldn’t win battles because of their skill and tenacity, I want the guy that might break my neck slamming my face into the boards rather than the crafty guys that pick my pocket.  Effective players, good players.  Just not my personal preference. I want players that impose their physical presence into other players.  

[inkman]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't get to label everyone who doesn't play like Tkachuk as "finesse" that is absurd. 

Also, you didn't answer the question. Which of the players we drafted are  "all finesse no jam"?

By your definition, they are all super jammy.  Great.  Not one of them intimidates anyone. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Lots of tenacious players, outside of Wahlberg I don’t think I’d fear for my safety going into the corner with anyone else on the list. 
 

This doesn’t mean those players wouldn’t win battles because of their skill and tenacity, I want the guy that might break my neck slamming my face into the boards rather than the crafty guys that pick my pocket.  Effective players, good players.  Just not my personal preference. I want players that impose their physical presence into other players.  

How's that working out for Brady Tkachuk? So intimidating his team is at the same level as the Sabres. This isn't as effective as it is made out to be. 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, inkman said:

By your definition, they are all super jammy.  Great.  Not one of them intimidates anyone. 

You think that when Zach Benson goes into the corner with Brady Tkachuk or Matthew Tkachuk, he gives a flying F? You think he is intimidated? You think Dahlin feels intimidated when he goes into a corner? You aren't the only one but so many ppl act as though players are just pissing themselves because they see a Tkachuk lined up across from them when in reality, in the flow the of the game, they don't care. Hell some guys actually play better when they are constantly getting Tkachuk'd because they get more and more pissed. I just don't believe what you say. 

Again though, you made a claim. Buffalo has "all finesse, no jam" in regards to who they draft. I listed their top guys at forward. Which are all finesse to jam? Why won't you answer? It's an honest question. I even did half the work for you. 

[inkman]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

How's that working out for Brady Tkachuk? So intimidating his team is at the same level as the Sabres. This isn't as effective as it is made out to be. 

Maybe he’s wholly ineffective.  I just like players that play a certain way.  It doesn’t mean they are better.  It’s just players that I can be proud of. I admire guys that hit and drop the gloves.  If the Sabres were making the playoffs and competing for the cup, these thoughts would probably be buried in the back of my brain.  Instead we are saddled with whatever the current lot of players do.  

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

If you are going to categorize players who play with tenacity as “gritty” players, then we’ll never agree.  I love Quinn and Benson.  They aren’t Matthew Tkachuk.   I want guys on the team that physically intimidate.  You don’t care about that.  Fine.  I do. 

Though I mostly agree with this, I think some of this is just the way the game is these days.

How many Matthew Tkachuks have been available in the top 20 during the Adams era? How many times have the Sabres bypassed them?

[LGR4GM]

30 minutes ago, inkman said:

Maybe he’s wholly ineffective.  I just like players that play a certain way.  It doesn’t mean they are better.  It’s just players that I can be proud of. I admire guys that hit and drop the gloves.  If the Sabres were making the playoffs and competing for the cup, these thoughts would probably be buried in the back of my brain.  Instead we are saddled with whatever the current lot of players do.  

Totally fair

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

If the Sabres would just draft or acquire forwards (this off-season they did, albeit, bottom 6 role players) with both size and attitude, none of this would even be a conversation.  Instead, the Sabres have spent high draft pick after high draft pick on finesse players.  Almost all were good draft value and look like they will be good NHL players.  But it’s created a roster of almost all finesse, no jam.  When was the last time the Sabres drafted a forward in the first couple rounds with these traits?  Zack Kassian?  And look how he turned out.  

Trading for them or signing them, as you can see, is not happening. But we have size now, and we have more in Rochester. Anton Wahlberg is a guy to watch.

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Trading for them or signing them, as you can see, is not happening. But we have size now, and we have more in Rochester. Anton Wahlberg is a guy to watch.

Provided he isn't the prospect going the other way should a trade for a 2W be consumated.

[K-9]

Regarding Benson, it isn’t just his hockey IQ that allows him to compete with bigger players, it’s his actual short stature that works to his advantage. He won numerous puck battles along the boards because he knows how to leverage his size against bigger opponents. Sure, he gets knocked on his butt a few times here and there, but he wins puck battles far more often than not. 

[Weave]

16 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Provided he isn't the prospect going the other way should a trade for a 2W be consumated.

[PromoTheRobot]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Provided he isn't the prospect going the other way should a trade for a 2W be consumated.

He is what we need. Why trade him? Wait a year.

[GoPuckYourself]

I 100% agree with @inkman, since I can remember this team has been mostly bark with very little bite since the start of the 2000’s. I’ve wanted the team the L.A. Kings won multiple cups with and the Bruins also. A bunch of guys who could play solid 2 way game but could also punch you in the mouth.

[Taro T]

45 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

He is what we need. Why trade him? Wait a year.

Why trade him?  Because if a team is going to provide Sabres somebody like a Zegras, they are very likely going to want him coming back in return as part of the package.

 

Personally, DON'T WANT HIM TRADED.  But, if Adams makes a trade for a 2W am expecting he's going to be a big portion of the price to make that happen.

[GoPuckYourself]

When your 18 year old 5’9” rookie is the 1 standing up for guys there is a serious problem.