On the topic of our need for a top-6 upgrade

[JohnC]

58 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

A lot of people have Tuch going down to the 2nd line away from Thompson. That is one thing I do not want to see. I see their games working well together.  Tuch is probably the best forchecker on the team, might be one of the best in the league and he has the speed to do it.    I think he works well with Thompson because Tage doesn't do that (or want to do that) as much. Cozens on the other hand is very aggressive, kinda like Tuch but in an even more 'all gas/no brakes' type of way.  

I just think Tuch works well with Thompson, and would not work as well with Cozens.   Quinn and Peterka (especially Quinn) aren't the full speed ahead-all the time type players, so that works better with Cozens.

Who is advocating for Tuch to be moved down to the second line? If there are people in that minority camp, it is a very small camp. It seems to me that the first line is solidified with JJP/Tage/Tuch. There are a variety of interesting line combinations that validly can be made. Where Benson ends up is one of the more intriguing issues, along with whether a player such as Kulich can impress enough to make the jump to the big league. If a second line player is not brought it, what are the ramifications for the next two lines? 

As @dudacek points out, it is an interesting time of year to postulate. It's going to be interesting to see if Lindy's eyes reflect the consensus views of the members hers. I see Lindy being more of a juggling coach than a static lineup coach. We shall see. 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Who is advocating for Tuch to be moved down to the second line? If there are people in that minority camp, it is a very small camp. It seems to me that the first line is solidified with JJP/Tage/Tuch. There are a variety of interesting line combinations that validly can be made. Where Benson ends up is one of the more intriguing issues, along with whether a player such as Kulich can impress enough to make the jump to the big league. If a second line player is not brought it, what are the ramifications for the next two lines? 

As @dudacek points out, it is an interesting time of year to postulate. It's going to be interesting to see if Lindy's eyes reflect the consensus views of the members hers. I see Lindy being more of a juggling coach than a static lineup coach. We shall see. 

I just read a post this morning before mine on this very thread where someone advocated for it, and at least 2-3 times in the past week or two in other threads I have seen people suggest it.

Edited July 13 by mjd1001

[kas23]

On 7/12/2024 at 12:36 PM, LGR4GM said:

Because Cozens, Thompson, Peterka and Tuch can't get injured for us to make the playoffs. There's no depth. 

If any of the players above, plus Quinn, miss any appreciable time, we are in for another abysmal season. And another player is missing from that list too. We just don’t know who yet. And I also think one of these players will miss a good amount of time. It’s inevitable. 

[BullBuchanan]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Prediction. In 3 years Benson will be on our top line. Possibly second if we are really good but I doubt that we are. 

Ok. That's 3 years from now. By then Thompson will be on the back end of his prime, Tuch will be done and the entire roster will probably look different. I'd rather trade Benson in a package for a guy that can play on our top line right now and still be there 3 years from now that we replace with a guy like Helenius down the road

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Who is advocating for Tuch to be moved down to the second line? If there are people in that minority camp, it is a very small camp. It seems to me that the first line is solidified with JJP/Tage/Tuch. There are a variety of interesting line combinations that validly can be made. Where Benson ends up is one of the more intriguing issues, along with whether a player such as Kulich can impress enough to make the jump to the big league. If a second line player is not brought it, what are the ramifications for the next two lines? 

As @dudacek points out, it is an interesting time of year to postulate. It's going to be interesting to see if Lindy's eyes reflect the consensus views of the members hers. I see Lindy being more of a juggling coach than a static lineup coach. We shall see. 

We shouldn't be advocating for that now, but on a Stanley Cup contender, Tuch is a 2nd line player, not the 2nd best forward on the team.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Wasn’t he in the top 6 for portions of last year?

I'm talking about being in the top 6 on a REAL hockey team not whatever it was that Granato was tossing together. My hope is that under Ruff and what appears to be a shift in direction and roster composition we will become an actual playoff team over the next few years.

I do think Benson can become a new version of Briere. Or maybe a new version of Danny Gare. Not as tough maybe, but certainly as tenacious and productive. 

[PerreaultForever]

15 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Ok. That's 3 years from now. By then Thompson will be on the back end of his prime, Tuch will be done and the entire roster will probably look different. I'd rather trade Benson in a package for a guy that can play on our top line right now and still be there 3 years from now that we replace with a guy like Helenius down the road

We shouldn't be advocating for that now, but on a Stanley Cup contender, Tuch is a 2nd line player, not the 2nd best forward on the team.

Tuch will be done in 3 years?? How fast do you think NHL players age out? I think you've been stuck watching the youngest roster in the league for too many years. You need a reality check. Ruff can take us forward, but it likely won't be instant. 

I am well past done looking at prospects and draft picks as the next savior before they even play an NHL game. Benson I have seen and I can see what he can be.

Right now Helenius is just the guy Troy went to war over and nothing more. Completely irrelevant, until he shows he isn't. 

[LGR4GM]

39 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Ok. That's 3 years from now. By then Thompson will be on the back end of his prime, Tuch will be done and the entire roster will probably look different. I'd rather trade Benson in a package for a guy that can play on our top line right now and still be there 3 years from now that we replace with a guy like Helenius down the road

We shouldn't be advocating for that now, but on a Stanley Cup contender, Tuch is a 2nd line player, not the 2nd best forward on the team.

Trading Benson is one of those truly stupid ideas. 

He won't need 3 years, he'll be g2g after this year. 

[Thorny]

5 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I mean, let's not get crazy here.

Which part 

[Taro T]

42 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm talking about being in the top 6 on a REAL hockey team not whatever it was that Granato was tossing together. My hope is that under Ruff and what appears to be a shift in direction and roster composition we will become an actual playoff team over the next few years.

I do think Benson can become a new version of Briere. Or maybe a new version of Danny Gare. Not as tough maybe, but certainly as tenacious and productive. 

Probably not the ideal place for this response, but something about the sentence about hoping to be a playoff team in a few years stuck out.  Adams expected the team last year to be a playoff caliber team and essentially sat on his hands that off-season.  He found out it wasn't and seems to have learned from that experience.  Since it was apparent to him that the team wasn't good enough for the playoffs (which came to him later than it did for most), he's swapped out his 3C (arguably his 1st or 2nd C, but considering he seemingly wasn't willing to pay him, will run with 3C) for a player he believes can be on the top pairing in the near future, if not now (and from comments his new HC has made, likely not now); as mentioned he swapped out the head coach; he's brought in a credible veteran goalie to at minimum provide competition for the incumbants; and he's swapped out (if not upgraded) 5 of the spots on the bottom 2 lines.  He's also rumored to be looking for another piece to plug into the top 6. 

With all that, personally see what the HOPE should be is playoffs THIS year.  Maybe not the expectation; but this team as presently constructed should be at an absolute minimum in the mix for a playoff spot.  Personally, expect this team, as currently constructed is about a 95-96 point team.  Not a lock, and they're one of 6 or 7 teams battling for the 2 WC (can't see Moe-ray-all nor Columbus in the mix even with Columbus' FA acquisitions) but only Tampa and NJ seem to have a clear edge over the Sabres at this point in time and NJ might be the team taking the 3rd spot in the Patrick Division so the Sabres don't absolutely have to punch above their weight class to get it.  But they have to be the best of that muddled middle.  Would really like to see that 2W come in to help give them the edge in being the best of (or at least one of the best 3) of the "grade inflation isn't just for schools anymore" bunch.  But they're in the mix.  And expect (maybe it's projecting hope) that the poor start last year is something the players that are back still have front and center in their minds and will be something they will work to avoid.  Many times during this dark era, this team has come out of the gate reasonably to very well, in large part because other squads overlooked them but the Sabres had something to be playing for.  After last season, other teams will be overlooking them again in October but they themselves have something to prove.

Hate that they're starting the year in Europe as it seems teams usually have a disconnect right when they come back home and this team can't afford it.  At least Ruff will know the Devils' strengths and weaknesses well; winning those 1st 2 would be huge.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

We shouldn't be advocating for that now, but on a Stanley Cup contender, Tuch is a 2nd line player, not the 2nd best forward on the team.

On this team, Tuch is a genuine first line player. Let's get freaking real here: The best we can hope for right now is that the Sabres will vie for a low rung playoff spot. If you want to talk about your fantasy hockey world that is not grounded on reality, then do so. I'm not into that fantasy world. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm talking about being in the top 6 on a REAL hockey team not whatever it was that Granato was tossing together. My hope is that under Ruff and what appears to be a shift in direction and roster composition we will become an actual playoff team over the next few years.

I do think Benson can become a new version of Briere. Or maybe a new version of Danny Gare. Not as tough maybe, but certainly as tenacious and productive. 

I think Benson can be that also. Per your earlier post in this thread though, you predict he will be there in 3 years. But, with the goal of winning, you won’t trade him for a player who is there now?

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Tuch will be done in 3 years?? How fast do you think NHL players age out? I think you've been stuck watching the youngest roster in the league for too many years. You need a reality check. Ruff can take us forward, but it likely won't be instant. 

I am well past done looking at prospects and draft picks as the next savior before they even play an NHL game. Benson I have seen and I can see what he can be.

Right now Helenius is just the guy Troy went to war over and nothing more. Completely irrelevant, until he shows he isn't. 

It's a well known statistical fact that NHL players peak before 26. Tuch will be 31 in 3 years. He'll be far past his prime. Thompson will be 30, and looking at the same fate.

Benson is just a prospect at this point with 30 points to his name. That's not helping us win a cup in the next 3 years. We need to either get someone who can score 100 points, or we need a ton of guys in the 60+ range. Florida had 4 above 70 each of the last 2 years. Vegas had 6 at 50+. We had 6 at 50+ 2 years ago, but sent two of those guys packing (Mitts, Skinner). This year we had just 4 over 50 with the top end at 59. Thompson is the only guy on the roster capable of getting up into the 90s and he may well have already peaked at nearly 27 years old.

Praying that guys like Quinn and Benson will hit that level is not my preferred strategy.

27 minutes ago, JohnC said:

On this team, Tuch is a genuine first line player. Let's get freaking real here: The best we can hope for right now is that the Sabres will vie for a low rung playoff spot. If you want to talk about your fantasy hockey world that is not grounded on reality, then do so. I'm not into that fantasy world. 

We shouldn't be building a team to make the last seed of the playoffs. we should be building a team to make a cup run. Otherwise, there's no point. Just tear it down and start over.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Probably not the ideal place for this response, but something about the sentence about hoping to be a playoff team in a few years stuck out.  Adams expected the team last year to be a playoff caliber team and essentially sat on his hands that off-season.  He found out it wasn't and seems to have learned from that experience.  Since it was apparent to him that the team wasn't good enough for the playoffs (which came to him later than it did for most), he's swapped out his 3C (arguably his 1st or 2nd C, but considering he seemingly wasn't willing to pay him, will run with 3C) for a player he believes can be on the top pairing in the near future, if not now (and from comments his new HC has made, likely not now); as mentioned he swapped out the head coach; he's brought in a credible veteran goalie to at minimum provide competition for the incumbants; and he's swapped out (if not upgraded) 5 of the spots on the bottom 2 lines.  He's also rumored to be looking for another piece to plug into the top 6. 

With all that, personally see what the HOPE should be is playoffs THIS year.  Maybe not the expectation; but this team as presently constructed should be at an absolute minimum in the mix for a playoff spot.  Personally, expect this team, as currently constructed is about a 95-96 point team.  Not a lock, and they're one of 6 or 7 teams battling for the 2 WC (can't see Moe-ray-all nor Columbus in the mix even with Columbus' FA acquisitions) but only Tampa and NJ seem to have a clear edge over the Sabres at this point in time and NJ might be the team taking the 3rd spot in the Patrick Division so the Sabres don't absolutely have to punch above their weight class to get it.  But they have to be the best of that muddled middle.  Would really like to see that 2W come in to help give them the edge in being the best of (or at least one of the best 3) of the "grade inflation isn't just for schools anymore" bunch.  But they're in the mix.  And expect (maybe it's projecting hope) that the poor start last year is something the players that are back still have front and center in their minds and will be something they will work to avoid.  Many times during this dark era, this team has come out of the gate reasonably to very well, in large part because other squads overlooked them but the Sabres had something to be playing for.  After last season, other teams will be overlooking them again in October but they themselves have something to prove.

Hate that they're starting the year in Europe as it seems teams usually have a disconnect right when they come back home and this team can't afford it.  At least Ruff will know the Devils' strengths and weaknesses well; winning those 1st 2 would be huge.

I'm not saying we can't or won't make the playoffs this year. If a number of things (like injuries, hot goalies, luck in close games, loser points you don't deserve etc) go right we can, but it'll need luck and bad luck for some our divisional competitors for that to happen. We have a new coach and a better constructed roster but we are not deep, we are not experienced, and the team will be fragile. 

What I meant was thinking ahead to a team where we go into a season expecting playoffs and the discussion is about winning in the playoffs and the cup and not just trying to get in. The type of discussions they have in Toronto and Boston and places like that. When we get there, and we expect to be in, that's the type of team I meant. On that team you will truly have to be top 6 caliber to be on the top 6. 

We are nowhere near that unless just about everything goes right.

[PerreaultForever]

25 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I think Benson can be that also. Per your earlier post in this thread though, you predict he will be there in 3 years. But, with the goal of winning, you won’t trade him for a player who is there now?

No because I think his upside is likely higher than what you're getting back. Everything needs to be staggered and structured properly for long term success and the only guys I see as (almost) untouchable are the guys who have already shown me the character I want for this team going forward. 

I mean really, nobody is truly untouchable but the guys I would want an overpay return on are Benson and Peterka.

Dahlin and Cozens would require a solid equal at least return.

Tuch I could trade but I really really don't want to because I want to build that culture and I think him playing for Lindy (and for me becoming captain) is just too vital to that culture building to toss away on a talent oriented trade. It's emotional heart and soul stuff that defies the mathematics and stats of it. 

Everyone else is open to discussion on a trade that would make us better. 

Just my opinion, but those are the guys I favor at this time. 

[HILLsabre]

The "problem" is the Sabre's unfortunately aren't close to being a Stanley cup contender roster wise. Why is the goal being lowered to "just making the playoffs?" If this is the goal now, then some more moves by Adams should be made NOW and the heck with thinking 2-3 years down the road.(Young prospects might need to be sacrificed ) If your goal is to contend for the cup and go deep in the playoffs, Tage and Tuch aren't both going to be playing on the top line when that happens. Line 2 is realistic. Presently IMHO we don't have a REAL first line. We're 2 elite wingers short with this young, present roster. This will take more than a season. So back to my question, what's the goal...right now, what's the goal?

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, HILLsabre said:

The "problem" is the Sabre's unfortunately aren't close to being a Stanley cup contender roster wise. Why is the goal being lowered to "just making the playoffs?" If this is the goal now, then some more moves by Adams should be made NOW and the heck with thinking 2-3 years down the road.(Young prospects might need to be sacrificed ) If your goal is to contend for the cup and go deep in the playoffs, Tage and Tuch aren't both going to be playing on the top line when that happens. Line 2 is realistic. Presently IMHO we don't have a REAL first line. We're 2 elite wingers short with this young, present roster. This will take more than a season. So back to my question, what's the goal...right now, what's the goal?

One step at a time obviously. You have to make the playoffs before you can win in the playoffs. Progress every year is or at least should be the goal. Trying to build a cup winner in one off season is unrealistic.

The forward roster is structured now with a split between the young talent we have drafted or traded for and non Sabre veterans who can bring with them a cultural shift, this is progress. 

[Crusader1969]

10 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I just read a post this morning before mine on this very thread where someone advocated for it, and at least 2-3 times in the past week or two in other threads I have seen people suggest it.

I suggest he really is a 3rd line winger on a real good team 

[OrangeSeatVertigo]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:29 AM, Archie Lee said:

You're right.  If we traded something else for a top-6 winger, Quinn or Benson would just be bumped to line 3.  But what if the barrier to a top-6 upgrade is that the team we are dealing with wants Benson or Quinn.  So the cost of Ehlers, Konecny or Boeser is Benson.  Should we do that? Would you do that?

My answer is a qualified yes.  I would trade Benson for any of those players, if we were able to get them extended first.

all sounds good, but assuming the trade targets all have no-trade clauses in their contracts (you need to determine this first) none of them are allowing a trade to buffalo.  simply not going to happen.. doesn't matter what the Sabres offer.   gonna be awhile b4 this team is a destination any top player will entertain

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, OrangeSeatVertigo said:

all sounds good, but assuming the trade targets all have no-trade clauses in their contracts (you need to determine this first) none of them are allowing a trade to buffalo.  simply not going to happen.. doesn't matter what the Sabres offer.   gonna be awhile b4 this team is a destination any top player will entertain

True enough.  Finding the right player who doesn't have trade protection and who will extend with the Sabres is a legitimate challenge (though not insurmountable).  This was meant as a post-free-agency, off-season, hypothetical discussion about what you would be prepared to give up to get a top-6 upgrade. 

I fully understand why some would say Benson should not be moved in such a trade.  If a fan believes that Benson was a top-5 pick who slid to 13 solely due to the myopic views of NHL GMs (a myopic view that, thankfully, our GM does not share), and that there are maybe 10 players in all the NHL whose talents exceed Benson's potential, then of course that fan isn't making the short-sighted decision to trade him for a 28-29 year-old top-6 winger.

Edited July 14 by Archie Lee

[dudacek]

14 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

I suggest he really is a 3rd line winger on a real good team 

Guys like Dylan Holloway, Warren Foegele and Evan Rodrigues were playing on the 2nd line in the Stanley Cup final.

Tuch is the 9th highest scoring RW in the NHL over the past 2 seasons. He also clicks all the intangible boxes: big, fast, defensively responsible, high character

He is a legit top 6 wing on any team in the league and first line on most.

Edited July 14 by dudacek

[Crusader1969]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Guys like Dylan Holloway, Warren Foegele and Evan Rodrigues were playing on the 2nd line in the Stanley Cup final.

Tuch is the 9th highest scoring RW in the NHL over the past 2 seasons. He also clicks all the intangible boxes: big, fast, defensively responsible, high character

He is a legit top 6 wing on any team in the league and first line on most.

I was down on him most of this past season BUT I will admit he finished really well.    

[Drag0nDan]

On 7/13/2024 at 6:38 PM, PerreaultForever said:

No because I think his upside is likely higher than what you're getting back. Everything needs to be staggered and structured properly for long term success and the only guys I see as (almost) untouchable are the guys who have already shown me the character I want for this team going forward. 

I mean really, nobody is truly untouchable but the guys I would want an overpay return on are Benson and Peterka.

Dahlin and Cozens would require a solid equal at least return.

Tuch I could trade but I really really don't want to because I want to build that culture and I think him playing for Lindy (and for me becoming captain) is just too vital to that culture building to toss away on a talent oriented trade. It's emotional heart and soul stuff that defies the mathematics and stats of it. 

Everyone else is open to discussion on a trade that would make us better. 

Just my opinion, but those are the guys I favor at this time. 

I don't see Tuch as captain material tbh.  

[PerreaultForever]

12 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

I don't see Tuch as captain material tbh.  

Care to say why and who on the roster you do see as captain material and why?

[Drag0nDan]

55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Care to say why and who on the roster you do see as captain material and why?

I would say Dahlin would be my choice.  He's the best player on the team, when he speaks people listen, and he seems to genuinely care for the team and the entire organization (Taking in an 18 year old benson during his rookie season is a good example).  He's worn the A the last two years.  Is an all-star.  Locked up long-term.  

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

I would say Dahlin would be my choice.  He's the best player on the team, when he speaks people listen, and he seems to genuinely care for the team and the entire organization (Taking in an 18 year old benson during his rookie season is a good example).  He's worn the A the last two years.  Is an all-star.  Locked up long-term.  

I know lots of people think that, but I don't see him as having the leadership presence you think he has. Tuch, on the other hand, is the cultural transition man we need. He knows Lindy better than anyone else and he can be that bridge to a new way. It's a very specific and delicate moment. I fully expect the Sabres to get it wrong, but one can hope until it happens. 

I have never been a fan of "best player on the team" gets to be captain. It rarely works. Consider Eichel. I personally just want Dahlin to be the best player he can be and concentrate on that. He can still be a lead by example guy, but not the communicator for the team. We also need someone who has actually been on a winning team at the NHL level.