On the topic of our need for a top-6 upgrade

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

It's not likely that they all will get injured.  How many NHL teams have legitimate top 6 players (25-30 goal, 60+ point potential) playing on their 3rd line?  If Quinn and Benson are as good as you believe, then we can easily sustain an injury or two in the top-6.  Zucker and McLeod, maybe Kulich, can fill-in a top-six role.

I'm not trying to be a wanker.  I really like Quinn and Benson.  I think there is a scenario where we don't make any additional moves and things come together that make us a playoff team this year. I have actual optimism about that.

I don't understand the fiery anger and frustration with Adams that is overlapped with the unwavering belief that he has drafted players in Quinn and Benson who are so incredibly good that they are basically untouchable in trade.

Jack Quinn might be the Sabres best forward. 

Zach Benson is the Sabres best 200ft player. 

My prediction from Benson is 19g and 28a. My Quinn prediction is 34g and 46a

[RochesterExpat]

55 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Acting as though jack quinn is not the first line wing he produces at or that Zach Benson is just some normal rookie is wrong

For clarity, are you saying Quinn is a lock for the first line or that he’s at the caliber of a first line winger? The latter I agree with. The former I don’t see happening if Tuch and Thompson are kept together which I expect to happen. I think Quinn on the right is better than shifting him to left so pairing him with Cozens is a better utilization. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

For clarity, are you saying Quinn is a lock for the first line or that he’s at the caliber of a first line winger? The latter I agree with. The former I don’t see happening if Tuch and Thompson are kept together which I expect to happen. I think Quinn on the right is better than shifting him to left so pairing him with Cozens is a better utilization. 

I don't view lines as rigidly as this place. Quinn will play on the teams "2nd" line but produce at a 1st line rate. He'll probably be very much on Tuchs level. 

[RochesterExpat]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't view lines as rigidly as this place. Quinn will play on the teams "2nd" line but produce at a 1st line rate. He'll probably be very much on Tuchs level. 

Gotcha. I don’t see the lines as set in stone either, but Tuch pairs well with Thompson because the play styles so I expect them to be kept together. That being said, I’m a big fan of trying a top six of:

JJP - Thompson - Quinn

Benson - Cozens - Tuch

Your first line has the high motor guy (Peterka) with a serious secondary scoring threat of Quinn—who also happens to be a criminally underrated playmaker. JJP is also a scoring threat, but his goals tend to be less finesse than either Thompson or Quinn. But having Quinn with Thompson will take pressure off Tage and give him more opportunities. I just don’t see how you move Quinn to RW1 without JJP as well. Unless you’re trading for a high motor top line left wing.

Plus now your second line is set with two guys who can “shelter” Benson (not that he really needs it). It also takes some two-way pressure off Cozens by adding Tuch. Tuch and Cozens were both 30 goal scorers two season ago. Let Benson use his IQ and playmaking to the fullest by giving him two heavy forechecking targets.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

And to the 2nd question? If Quinn is a 1st line winger and Benson is so good there are no more than 5-10 players in the NHL who you would trade him for, then I assume you think we are a playoff team?  Why all the angst about Adams?  It seems he is a genius. 

The team as assembled is possibly a playoff team.  They'll be in the mix and with a couple of realistic breaks breaking their way, they can be in.

But Quinn, especially if he's on the 2nd line & the top PP unit, could very well find himself their 2nd leading goal scorer when all is said and done this year.  Could realisitically see him coming out of the gate with 6 or 7 goals in the 1st 10 games as other teams are focusing on stopping the Thompson line.  Because, at least at home, that line could very likely be primarily facing the other team's 3rd or 4th lines.  Either bottom 6 line could match up against the opponent's top line (or 2nd line should Ruff want to go fire power vs fire power) leaving that line with horses that can exploit weaker opponents.  Can't see him sustaining that pace; but could see him going on 2 hot runs like that this year should he stay healthy.  18 goals in the other 62 games and he hits that elusive 30 goal mark.

[Archie Lee]

I’m all for optimism. Love Quinn and Benson and am super excited to see what they can do. I realize we aren’t trading either of them and I don’t want them traded except for a serious upgrade. I also stand by my opinion that we have an internal cap that will be maxed out once we get our RFA’s signed, so, a top 6 upgrade isn’t likely an option anyway. 

Still, things moved very quickly from July 1 being a disaster to the top 6 being full for the next 6 years (assuming we will extend Tuch next summer).  

[RochesterExpat]

16 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I’m all for optimism. Love Quinn and Benson and am super excited to see what they can do. I realize we aren’t trading either of them and I don’t want them traded except for a serious upgrade. I also stand by my opinion that we have an internal cap that will be maxed out once we get our RFA’s signed, so, a top 6 upgrade isn’t likely an option anyway. 

I don’t understand why you’re so down on Quinn who is likely a 60 point player this season. That aside, the issue with the Top 6 isn’t with the current players on the roster, but the lack of proven depth (“proven” because players like Kulich don’t count). Yes, Greenway can come in and play a few games if a short-term injury happens, but the team is in trouble if either Quinn or Peterka regress, the other forwards (Cozens in particular) don’t return to form, or someone is out long term.

Quinn was at a 27 goal pace last season despite injury. Peterka scored 28. While there is argument to be made Quinn is injury prone, the reality is he isn’t having recurring issues. It’s just a run of bad luck similar to Ullmark being “injury prone” when he was with Buffalo.

You want to upgrade the top 6 which is fine. Most people here will agree to that; however, you’re discussing trading Benson or Quinn for a top 6 player. Assuming you find an upgrade over Benson on the market (Quinn will reasonably hit 30g this season and there just isn’t anyone available who replaces that, sorry), you’re now trading a player who could play in the top six for another top six player. That doesn’t solve the bigger issue of depth. It’s fine to add to the top six with the goal to bump Benson down the lineup, but, again, trading Benson away doesn’t solve the fundamental weakness of depth. You’re going to need to move a bottom six player like Krebs, prospects and picks to actually improve the roster.

[BullBuchanan]

I would absolutely move Benson/Kulich or any other prospect for a Top 6 player. Those kids are years away from peak production, and it makes sense to get that production now with an older more established player. I'd be less excited about moving Quinn as I think he has top 6 potential as early as this season, but it wouldn't be off the table for a serious upgrade. We're going to have a steady stream of prospects for a few years and Ideally we'll be turning the corner into a winner long before they're ready to play serious roles.

If that's not the plan, then you might as well trade the established prospects we already have and the older vets to get younger prospects and picks. Of course, there's no way this is the plan, but it should be all-in or all-out at this point.

[Archie Lee]

48 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

I don’t understand why you’re so down on Quinn who is likely a 60 point player this season. That aside, the issue with the Top 6 isn’t with the current players on the roster, but the lack of proven depth (“proven” because players like Kulich don’t count). Yes, Greenway can come in and play a few games if a short-term injury happens, but the team is in trouble if either Quinn or Peterka regress, the other forwards (Cozens in particular) don’t return to form, or someone is out long term.

Quinn was at a 27 goal pace last season despite injury. Peterka scored 28. While there is argument to be made Quinn is injury prone, the reality is he isn’t having recurring issues. It’s just a run of bad luck similar to Ullmark being “injury prone” when he was with Buffalo.

You want to upgrade the top 6 which is fine. Most people here will agree to that; however, you’re discussing trading Benson or Quinn for a top 6 player. Assuming you find an upgrade over Benson on the market (Quinn will reasonably hit 30g this season and there just isn’t anyone available who replaces that, sorry), you’re now trading a player who could play in the top six for another top six player. That doesn’t solve the bigger issue of depth. It’s fine to add to the top six with the goal to bump Benson down the lineup, but, again, trading Benson away doesn’t solve the fundamental weakness of depth. You’re going to need to move a bottom six player like Krebs, prospects and picks to actually improve the roster.

I’m not at all down on Quinn or Benson. If we acquire a legit unquestionably top 6 forward for other assets, then one of Quinn or Benson (likely Benson) is on line 3. Based on that, there is logic to me to consider moving Benson in such a deal if he is the required cost. I’m not giving him away, but if you can get an extended Konecny or Boeser for him, then I think it would be bizarre to not consider it. 

On the flip side, if the reason you won’t trade Benson or Quinn is because you view them as already being elite or near to elite players, then I would assume that you don’t think we have a top 6 need/issue (and, I would say you should be thrilled with the job Adams has done to position the team with such incredible young talents who are ready to help us win now). 

There is an inconsistency to me in the position that Adams needs to do more, while also considering players like Benson and Quinn as untouchable in the pursuit of improvement. 

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I’m not at all down on Quinn or Benson. If we acquire a legit unquestionably top 6 forward for other assets, then one of Quinn or Benson (likely Benson) is on line 3. Based on that, there is logic to me to consider moving Benson in such a deal if he is the required cost. I’m not giving him away, but if you can get an extended Konecny or Boeser for him, then I think it would be bizarre to not consider it. 

On the flip side, if the reason you won’t trade Benson or Quinn is because you view them as already being elite or near to elite players, then I would assume that you don’t think we have a top 6 need/issue (and, I would say you should be thrilled with the job Adams has done to position the team with such incredible young talents who are ready to help us win now). 

There is an inconsistency to me in the position that Adams needs to do more, while also considering players like Benson and Quinn as untouchable in the pursuit of improvement. 

It's not they are untouchable, it's that it is really hard to think of a deal that provides the kind of certitude I need to abandon the promise these two offer.

Yes, it's the old mystery box conundrum, but I've seen Nikolaj Ehlers. I like him, but I don't see him as bringing me to the promised land.

(And to be clear, my promised land is a lengthy run of cup contention, not one year of playoffs)

Unlike most here, I still cling to the idea that Adams' plan has not already failed. I feel like I'm too far up the mountain to stop the climb.

I'd like to see the best of what these kids have to offer before I give up on them. Foolish maybe, but that's where I am.

Edited July 12 by dudacek

[triumph_communes]

To OP:  no. We can add but trading them is silly. 

[RochesterExpat]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

then I would assume that you don’t think we have a top 6 need/issue

Did you read my post? I addressed my top 6 issue in my post. It’s a lack of depth. Moving Benson in a trade to upgrade his position doesn’t fix the depth problem.

[stinky finger]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This is one of those ideas that is truly awful. I'd have no faith in anything if Buffalo were stupid enough to do this. Jack Quinn was the most productive forward Buffalo had last season. Zach Benson should be treated like the top 5 pick he should have been. I wouldn't trade either for anything short of Draisaitl.

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

You're right.  If we traded something else for a top-6 winger, Quinn or Benson would just be bumped to line 3.  But what if the barrier to a top-6 upgrade is that the team we are dealing with wants Benson or Quinn.  So the cost of Ehlers, Konecny or Boeser is Benson.  Should we do that? Would you do that?

My answer is a qualified yes.  I would trade Benson for any of those players, if we were able to get them extended first.

Nope, not trading Benson unless it was for McDavid. Not a chance. 

[BullBuchanan]

48 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nope, not trading Benson unless it was for McDavid. Not a chance. 

Why? I figure his ceiling is a reliable middle-six talent and he likely won't hit that level for at least 2 years.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, RochesterExpat said:

Did you read my post? I addressed my top 6 issue in my post. It’s a lack of depth. Moving Benson in a trade to upgrade his position doesn’t fix the depth problem.

I had switched to the general “you” at that point. My apologies.  That said, while I think a lack of depth is a good reason to want to acquire an additional top 6 level winger and to prefer trading something other than Benson in the process, I don’t think a lack of depth is a good reason to not trade for an upgrade, particularly when trading for the upgrade doesn’t worsen your depth.  You won’t agree with the analogy I suspect, but it would be like going back to the Turgeon/Hawerchuk days and not trading Turgeon for Lafontaine because it still leaves us one injury away from only having one top 6 centre.  
 

 

[Thorny]

We talk about how everything’s about the Sabres making the playoffs but realistically they’d have a ways to go beyond that, that we talk relatively little about simply because it hasn’t been on the table. But the Sabres are in need of a top 6 addition WHILE keeping the on roster talent we have. It would absolutely be fine to have Benson pencilled in on line 3. He’s 19. It’s ok if a guy with 53 career points, Quinn, is slotted on line 3.

its like we’ve forgotten how real teams work. Not to mention, this is all hypothetical: dollars to donuts someone WILL be hurt: we aren’t really even moving benson or Quinn to L3 we are simply now an injury away from the top 6 player necessarily being a questionable Zucker. Or Krebs, instead of that player being in the top 6 now.

We have room for TWO top 6 additions, and Quinn, and Benson 

And Kovalchuk 

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Jack Quinn might be the Sabres best forward. 

Zach Benson is the Sabres best 200ft player. 

My prediction from Benson is 19g and 28a. My Quinn prediction is 34g and 46a

Benson is a better all round 200 foot player than Tuch right now? Thompson? I don’t think so 

Neither is Jack Quinn. Don’t they actually have to commit the body of work? 

Thompson and Tuch are our best forwards 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nope, not trading Benson unless it was for McDavid. Not a chance. 

Not even McDavid 

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We talk about how everything’s about the Sabres making the playoffs but realistically they’d have a ways to go beyond that, that we talk relatively little about simply because it hasn’t been on the table. But the Sabres are in need of a top 6 addition WHILE keeping the on roster talent we have. It would absolutely be fine to have Benson pencilled in on line 3. He’s 19. It’s ok if a guy with 53 career points, Quinn, is slotted on line 3.

its like we’ve forgotten how real teams work. Not to mention, this is all hypothetical: dollars to donuts someone WILL be hurt: we aren’t really even moving benson or Quinn to L3 we are simply now an injury away from the top 6 player necessarily being a questionable Zucker. Or Krebs, instead of that player being in the top 6 now.

We have room for TWO top 6 additions, and Quinn, and Benson 

And Kovalchuk 

Benson is a better all round 200 foot player than Tuch right now? Thompson? I don’t think so 

Neither is Jack Quinn. Don’t they actually have to commit the body of work? 

Thompson and Tuch are our best forwards 

This is gonna be a fun season. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Why? I figure his ceiling is a reliable middle-six talent and he likely won't hit that level for at least 2 years.

Prediction. In 3 years Benson will be on our top line. Possibly second if we are really good but I doubt that we are. 

[Archie Lee]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Prediction. In 3 years Benson will be on our top line. Possibly second if we are really good but I doubt that we are. 

Wasn’t he in the top 6 for portions of last year? I would say there is a reasonable chance he will be in the top 6 this year and a not unrealistic chance he will be on line one. Benson/Thompson/Tuch is intriguing to me, as Benson is a pass first playmaker who I think could mesh well with the shoot first Thompson. I could absolutely see a scenario where Benson lines up there and thrives from day one.  His below average skating might not make it the best match of skills though. 

What is interesting to me is that you are, in all honesty, pretty much at the forefront of the “Adams has already used up his last chance and it is win or else” brigade. Your position has warrant. Yet, you draw the line at trading a 19 year old, who you think is 3 years away from the top 6, in exchange for an established current top line player. 

I understand to a degree. I really like Benson too. His hockey IQ, anticipation and tenacity are maybe elite. I think he is going to be good for a long time. His skating and size might limit his ceiling. I thought there were times last year where his legs and/or size were not up to capitalizing on the loose puck opportunity his brain created and tenacity created. I acknowledge he was 18 though and that there is room for growth and/or adaptation. 

We are clearly very hungry for a kid who plays with some brains and spunk.   

[mjd1001]

A lot of people have Tuch going down to the 2nd line away from Thompson. That is one thing I do not want to see. I see their games working well together.  Tuch is probably the best forchecker on the team, might be one of the best in the league and he has the speed to do it.    I think he works well with Thompson because Tage doesn't do that (or want to do that) as much. Cozens on the other hand is very aggressive, kinda like Tuch but in an even more 'all gas/no brakes' type of way.  

I just think Tuch works well with Thompson, and would not work as well with Cozens.   Quinn and Peterka (especially Quinn) aren't the full speed ahead-all the time type players, so that works better with Cozens.

[That Aud Smell]

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Jack Quinn might be the Sabres best forward. 

My Quinn prediction is 34g and 46a

[PASabreFan]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

We talk about how everything’s about the Sabres making the playoffs but realistically they’d have a ways to go beyond that, that we talk relatively little about simply because it hasn’t been on the table. But the Sabres are in need of a top 6 addition WHILE keeping the on roster talent we have. It would absolutely be fine to have Benson pencilled in on line 3. He’s 19. It’s ok if a guy with 53 career points, Quinn, is slotted on line 3.

its like we’ve forgotten how real teams work. Not to mention, this is all hypothetical: dollars to donuts someone WILL be hurt: we aren’t really even moving benson or Quinn to L3 we are simply now an injury away from the top 6 player necessarily being a questionable Zucker. Or Krebs, instead of that player being in the top 6 now.

We have room for TWO top 6 additions, and Quinn, and Benson 

And Kovalchuk 

Benson is a better all round 200 foot player than Tuch right now? Thompson? I don’t think so 

Neither is Jack Quinn. Don’t they actually have to commit the body of work? 

Thompson and Tuch are our best forwards 

I mean, let's not get crazy here.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I mean, let's not get crazy here.

We are at that point in the off-season where the roster shuffle is mostly done, we’ve gotten over our initial disappointment about the moves, and if you squint you can see it all coming together.

July - the best time to be a Sabre fan. 😁