Is Adams rebuild the Regier rebuild, just starting about 9 years later?

[Taro T]

Am really wondering just how much of a playoffs or else those year Adams actually has.  It's been said by some of our very tied in posters that it is there, but watching the events of this past week, really am not certain that's the case.

Do expect they WANT to make the playoffs (absolutely do believe it's a goal) but not nearly convinced it's THE goal.  Rather, after watching the events of this past week am noticing how many similarities there are to Regier's "there will be suffering" teardown & rebuild as there are to THIS rebuild.

In that one, the team was torn down to the studs to get Reinhart & McDavid & rebuild from there with a crazily stupid # of pucks,  They didn't luck into McDavid & after the debacle that was Ron Rolston Regier had to be punted.  (Personally felt as soon as he promised suffering heshould've been gone, but that's neither here nor there.)  But really believe the plan was to use all the picks and keep moat all the prospects & grow into a perennial contender about 4 years afterEichel & all the other kids showed up.  

When Regier went away they switched gears to the accelerated rebuild.  But that wasn't the plan ownership originally bought into.  They bought into (or maybe they or their Pittsburgh cronies came up w/ it ; and it being the brainchild of the Pittsburgh crew makes sense, especially the way Regier was thrown underthe bus early in that '13-'14 season) the suffering plan.

Watching this all play out now, can't help but believe Adams convinced Terry that the plan would've succeeded with some tweaks.  And it seems the target date to be perennial contenders was on Dahlin's timeline (& that slid a year or 2 when Ullmark walked).  Stink out of the gate, but generally improve every year & by year 4 or 5 (counting Eichel trade as day 0) be legit playoff contenders & legit SC contenders by the year or 2 after that.  THAT seems to be the plan Pegula bought into.  Hate that that seems to be the plan, and maybe it isn't, but it sure seems to be the case.

Because, so far the only clear difference is that Adams was smart enough to never utter the word suffering nor fail to remain upbeat about where they are.

Please tell me Östlund & Rosen, Krebs & a protected 1st are going out the door for SOMETHING GOOD later this month & will believe we aren't watching them try to prove Regier right that this can work.  But short of that, or them missing the playoffs sitting at 97 points & Adams getting punted, will believe we're 60% of the way through "Suffering Pt2".

[...]

I think it's obvious this is what they wanted to do but never thought the Sabres' market would actually revolt enough that ticket sales, among other sales, would drop to a critical level. 

Now they have themselves in a pickle and are likely trying to execute a hybrid plan where the playoffs are the goal (or, rather, placating the market is the goal, which equals the same thing), even if only the first round, while primarily still on the Regier plan.

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

30 minutes ago, ... said:

I think it's obvious this is what they wanted to do but never thought the Sabres' market would actually revolt enough that ticket sales, among other sales, would drop to a critical level. 

Now they have themselves in a pickle and are likely trying to execute a hybrid plan where the playoffs are the goal (or, rather, placating the market is the goal, which equals the same thing), even if only the first round, while primarily still on the Regier plan.

Our drafting is just not as good as generally believed. We still have no one ready. From Krebs (who was a major acquisition) to Benson. There are no NHLers there. Krebs, Rosen, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich and Benson…. None are ready to help an NHL team win although they are all #1 draft picks. I think they are way too similar as well. They have differences, but they too much similarity. KA is banking on these kids to play top roles but I think there is a chance that any combination of the above players could make a successful line in the NHL and that is poor drafting. We have drafted zero forecheckers in the last five years as well. That must be around 90 picks. That is unforgivable as well…. It really is….

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Am really wondering just how much of a playoffs or else those year Adams actually has.  It's been said by some of our very tied in posters that it is there, but watching the events of this past week, really am not certain that's the case.

Do expect they WANT to make the playoffs (absolutely do believe it's a goal) but not nearly convinced it's THE goal.  Rather, after watching the events of this past week am noticing how many similarities there are to Regier's "there will be suffering" teardown & rebuild as there are to THIS rebuild.

In that one, the team was torn down to the studs to get Reinhart & McDavid & rebuild from there with a crazily stupid # of pucks,  They didn't luck into McDavid & after the debacle that was Ron Rolston Regier had to be punted.  (Personally felt as soon as he promised suffering heshould've been gone, but that's neither here nor there.)  But really believe the plan was to use all the picks and keep moat all the prospects & grow into a perennial contender about 4 years afterEichel & all the other kids showed up.  

When Regier went away they switched gears to the accelerated rebuild.  But that wasn't the plan ownership originally bought into.  They bought into (or maybe they or their Pittsburgh cronies came up w/ it ; and it being the brainchild of the Pittsburgh crew makes sense, especially the way Regier was thrown underthe bus early in that '13-'14 season) the suffering plan.

Watching this all play out now, can't help but believe Adams convinced Terry that the plan would've succeeded with some tweaks.  And it seems the target date to be perennial contenders was on Dahlin's timeline (& that slid a year or 2 when Ullmark walked).  Stink out of the gate, but generally improve every year & by year 4 or 5 (counting Eichel trade as day 0) be legit playoff contenders & legit SC contenders by the year or 2 after that.  THAT seems to be the plan Pegula bought into.  Hate that that seems to be the plan, and maybe it isn't, but it sure seems to be the case.

Because, so far the only clear difference is that Adams was smart enough to never utter the word suffering nor fail to remain upbeat about where they are.

Please tell me Östlund & Rosen, Krebs & a protected 1st are going out the door for SOMETHING GOOD later this month & will believe we aren't watching them try to prove Regier right that this can work.  But short of that, or them missing the playoffs sitting at 97 points & Adams getting punted, will believe we're 60% of the way through "Suffering Pt2".

Oh I hope not. “Accelerated rebuild” is another term for “efficient rebuild.” The purely slow play approach doesn’t work. You time yourself out of your own players and players willing to sign up because too much losing is stacked upon losing 

Other teams makes draft picks every year too

without the other stuff we are playing with half the cards 

[PerreaultForever]

To say they are trying to prove some idea from before implies that they actually have a real plan. I am coming to seriously doubt that. I don't think they have a clue what they are doing and in fact, they keep changing their minds. Ultimately though, there's now been so much futility saying nobody wants to come here is perhaps too extreme, but I think they do have a really hard time getting anybody to come. I would not be surprised at all if they gave higher offers to various free agents but those players chose to go elsewhere. 

The inability to sign good free agents, the losing reputation, and hence all the NTCs, has forced them to adopt this draft our own policy. Nothing more nothing less.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

There is little doubt what is happening now is what DR envisioned all those years ago.

It's what Scotty wanted to do even more years ago.

It went off the rails when DR was told that TP was convinced by his Pittsburgh clowns that there was another way.  That lead to the suffering.

[JP51]

11 hours ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

Our drafting is just not as good as generally believed. We still have no one ready. From Krebs (who was a major acquisition) to Benson. There are no NHLers there. Krebs, Rosen, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich and Benson…. None are ready to help an NHL team win although they are all #1 draft picks. I think they are way too similar as well. They have differences, but they too much similarity. KA is banking on these kids to play top roles but I think there is a chance that any combination of the above players could make a successful line in the NHL and that is poor drafting. We have drafted zero forecheckers in the last five years as well. That must be around 90 picks. That is unforgivable as well…. It really is….

100% agree.... I think we are whistling by the graveyard with some of these prospects... finding it hard with each passing year they cant make it into the lineup and contribute more than a Krebs or Zemgus etc.... maybe they arent ready and will be soon... but who knows I havent really seen them in NHL competition nor have they forced their way into the lineup. I understand not rushing them... but I would have hoped 1 of them would have pulled a Benson and forced his way in. 

The lack of drafting players who can play in small space and take away space is startling... unacceptable and shows a complete lack of understanding for the game today. Small skilled speed players are wonderful, but on a smaller NHL surface than in Europe, their must be a mix. The only thing I can figure is that he doesnt believe he can get skill to sign here but he can get grit. I think he is finding out that everyone else is valuing this type of two way player and ends up with the B side. I dont think he is long for this GM job. I believe the brand has been so devalued that no one reasonable wants to be the first to jump in and lead us out of the abyss... so... more suffering for us...  Lets hope Lindy can give us some level of spark and compete and we can eek into the playoffs even if it is a 4-1 First round loss... fingers crossed. 

[RochesterExpat]

11 hours ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

Our drafting is just not as good as generally believed. We still have no one ready. From Krebs (who was a major acquisition) to Benson. There are no NHLers there. Krebs, Rosen, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich and Benson…. None are ready to help an NHL team win although they are all #1 draft picks. I think they are way too similar as well. They have differences, but they too much similarity. KA is banking on these kids to play top roles but I think there is a chance that any combination of the above players could make a successful line in the NHL and that is poor drafting. We have drafted zero forecheckers in the last five years as well. That must be around 90 picks. That is unforgivable as well…. It really is….

I have to be pedantic about this, sorry. They were first round draft picks. Not #1 draft picks. There is a huge difference. And I'm not sure how you're evaluating our drafting to conclude that our drafting hasn't been very good.

Kulich was drafted 28th in 2022. He has played 119 AHL games and 1 NHL game. 21 players from this draft have played in the NHL, 8 of whom only played one game including the aforementioned Kulich as well as Savoie.

The 2021 28th pick has played 102 games in the AHL and 2 games in the NHL. Isak Rosen has played more games in the NHL at 7. 38 members of this class have seen NHL action. Rosen is 29th. 

The 2020 28th pick played 46 games in the AHL and is at 92 games in the NHL (Ridly Greig). He played part of two seasons ago in the NHL and all of last season. This development track would be the same as Kulich if Kulich gets a 20 game look this season which is entirely possible with injuries. For what it's worth, six picks later is JJP who has 161 NHL games. Peterka is 9th in his draft class by games played in the NHL. Quinn, despite injury, is at 18th.

The 2019 28th has 161 AHL games and no NHL games. For what it's worth, three picks later is Ryan Johnson who now has 41 NHL games.

The 2018 28th has 34 AHL games and 144 NHL games. He played three seasons in Sweden after his draft and then came to the US where he played half a season in the AHL before getting promoted. Mattias Samuelsson was drafted 4 picks later and, despite his injuries, has played in six more NHL games. For this draft class, the #2 spot in games played is Dahlin--not that this surprises anyone.

The 2017 28th overall has played in 9 NHL games and 217 AHL games.

The 2016 28th overall has 257 AHL games and 9 NHL games under his belt. He is no longer under contract with an NHL club.

Not that I would expect differently, but last years 28th overall pick is still in the OHL. Because that's expected for a 28th overall pick. Jumping straight into the AHL is very, very uncommon for a late first. Of the entire 2023 draft class, Zach Benson has played the most NHL games and he was drafted 13th. Only picks 1, 2, and 3 played meaningful numbers of games (and only two more played in one game).

We did not have 90 picks in the last 5 years. We made 43 selections.

2024 - 8 picks

2023 - 8 picks

2022 - 11 picks

2021 - 11 picks

2020 - 5 picks

You're also ignoring the realities that these players are not all the same "type" of player. Kulich is not remotely the same player as Krebs (who wasn't our draft pick) or Rosen. Östlund plays a completely different game from Savoie. Even that aside, are you seriously suggesting we the team has "no NHLers" at all from the most recent drafts? I guess Quinn and Peterka aren't NHLers. Or Cozens (drafted 5 years ago). Or Johnson or Power. And Benson leading his draft class in games played isn't enough to qualify as an NHL player.

Also the idea that we haven't drafted any "forecheckers" is simply untrue. Helenius is a "forechecker" and we just picked him this season at 14th. #39 from last season, Anton Wahlberg, is the "forechecker" to a T. We had hopes for Kozak, but he's unlikely to make the NHL at this point.

I'm not sure why you think draft picks instantly jump into the NHL after 2-3 years removed from the draft. That doesn't happen. This isn't the NFL.

[DarthEbriate]

EA NHL games taught me that the Regier rebuild was too cold (Armia never quite lived up to potential) and the GMTM aggression was too hot (losing McNabb was bad). But a hybrid model of the two: creating JT Compher (because he was in NCAA and had no license agreement) while still maintaining ROR... was just right.

5 hours ago, RochesterExpat said:

We had hopes for Kozak, but he's unlikely to make the NHL at this point.

Agree with this. Very unlikely given his sophomore season sans Peca. But I do think Kozak has a much better chance of being on the Sabres roster with Ruff as head coach than he did with Granato. Still, depends on the GM to call him up.

[shrader]

On 7/1/2024 at 9:36 PM, Taro T said:

after the debacle that was Ron Rolston Regier had to be punted.  

This one jumped out at me right away. If they’re planning on suffering, was Rolston really a debacle? I mean, they followed that up with Nolan. What’s that, fan-friendly suffering?

[kas23]

I’m 90% certain Pegula won’t fire Adams if we miss the playoffs again. The only way this happens is if the NHl steps in and leans on Terry to sell. But, if players keep blackballing the Sabres, what exactly are they going to do besides just wait for development of their own drafted players?
 

It seems like every player we try to get either turns us down or refuses to sign and extension with us upon getting traded. Us giving heaven and earth to land such players is just as reasonable as other GMs giving us a break. 

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, shrader said:

This one jumped out at me right away. If they’re planning on suffering, was Rolston really a debacle? I mean, they followed that up with Nolan. What’s that, fan-friendly suffering?

Yes, he was.  Whoever (and really don't believe it was Regier's brain child, again likely the Pittsburgh crew) came up with it wanted the team to be bad but STILL WATCHABLE.  They expected to lose fans, not have attendance decimated.  They were merely really bad in '13-'14 they weren't "Hoe-lee Fack, these guys couldn't even beat a mid-level AHL team" bad.  Like they were at the beginning of the next season running Rolston's "system."  Regier was giving them what they asked for - the worst team in the league.

Do you recall how truly awful that team was when Ron got to set the whole on-ice program?  Though Arizona and a couple others wanted to be bad in '14-'15; that Rolston team was leaps and bounds worse.  They were going to have an open revolt from the fans.  

And, yes, under Murray and Nolan, they were JUST bad enough to be the worst.  Under Rolston the previous year they were about 15 points worse than anybody else and they probably would've been '75 Caps bad had Rolstson stayed the coach the whole season.

And, IMHO, Regier was the most successful "Yes Man" this league has ever seen.  He did whatever the owners told him to do - give Nolan a 1 year deal, get rid of LaFontaine, operate with a significantly lower budget than the rest of the league, but he still put a competitive team out on the ice.  Until he was told to NOT put a competitive team on the ice.  And he did THAT in spades.

Regier would've had the low budget team the Pegulas seem to have wanted during the rebuild.  Can't recall him trading away any of the picks nor prospects he accumulated during the tank.  Maybe he just got punted too soon to do so; but expect he was planning on using most all of them in Buffalo and then the team would augment from outside once Reinhart and Eichel were coming into their primes.  Won't ever know for certain, but it sure seemed that was the plan.

[JP51]

31 minutes ago, kas23 said:

I’m 90% certain Pegula won’t fire Adams if we miss the playoffs again. The only way this happens is if the NHl steps in and leans on Terry to sell. But, if players keep blackballing the Sabres, what exactly are they going to do besides just wait for development of their own drafted players?
 

It seems like every player we try to get either turns us down or refuses to sign and extension with us upon getting traded. Us giving heaven and earth to land such players is just as reasonable as other GMs giving us a break. 

I wouldnt put me at 90% on Pegula not firing Adams... I personally think he is a dead GM walking if they dont make the playoffs again... the pitchforks are already out. But TP has proven to be utterly clueless so you my be right... I think the answer to the conundrum of the Sabres brand valued somewhere between a junk bond and and the currency of Liberia is like you said, one of our or several of our own players taking a leap and leading us out OR  our next GM hire will need to be a proven Pro who has taken his team to the Cup or close. Those will be the only things I see that restores any level of confidence in a person who is being asked to invest a portion of their career in the dysfunctional abyss that has become this team.  Because currently the only reason they come here is that they are older looking to still play and hope they are traded to a contender before the trade deadline because they dont fit with our plans. 

[kas23]

28 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I wouldnt put me at 90% on Pegula not firing Adams... I personally think he is a dead GM walking if they dont make the playoffs again... the pitchforks are already out. But TP has proven to be utterly clueless so you my be right... I think the answer to the conundrum of the Sabres brand valued somewhere between a junk bond and and the currency of Liberia is like you said, one of our or several of our own players taking a leap and leading us out OR  our next GM hire will need to be a proven Pro who has taken his team to the Cup or close. Those will be the only things I see that restores any level of confidence in a person who is being asked to invest a portion of their career in the dysfunctional abyss that has become this team.  Because currently the only reason they come here is that they are older looking to still play and hope they are traded to a contender before the trade deadline because they dont fit with our plans. 

I think you’re giving Terry too much credit. Ask yourself this. Why was Kevyn hired and has he done anything counter to the reason he was hired? He certainly wasn’t hired for his experience as a GM who has previously built successful teams. That’s for certain. My leaving, and Terry himself said just as much, that he was hired because he trusted him. I don’t think Kevyn has done anything to lose this trust, so why would he be fired?

[JP51]

1 minute ago, kas23 said:

I think you’re giving Terry too much credit. Ask yourself this. Why was Kevyn hired and has he done anything counter to the reason he was hired? He certainly wasn’t hired for his experience as a GM who has previously built successful teams. That’s for certain. My leaving, and Terry himself said just as much, that he was hired because he trusted him. I don’t think Kevyn has done anything to lose this trust, so why would he be fired?

That is my biggest fear... I am giving Terry too much credit cause if I am ... its worse than I thought... (although I thought utterly clueless was a pretty good indication of what I thought LOL )

[Berg]

On 7/2/2024 at 5:44 PM, RochesterExpat said:

I have to be pedantic about this, sorry. They were first round draft picks. Not #1 draft picks. There is a huge difference. And I'm not sure how you're evaluating our drafting to conclude that our drafting hasn't been very good.

Kulich was drafted 28th in 2022. He has played 119 AHL games and 1 NHL game. 21 players from this draft have played in the NHL, 8 of whom only played one game including the aforementioned Kulich as well as Savoie.

The 2021 28th pick has played 102 games in the AHL and 2 games in the NHL. Isak Rosen has played more games in the NHL at 7. 38 members of this class have seen NHL action. Rosen is 29th. 

The 2020 28th pick played 46 games in the AHL and is at 92 games in the NHL (Ridly Greig). He played part of two seasons ago in the NHL and all of last season. This development track would be the same as Kulich if Kulich gets a 20 game look this season which is entirely possible with injuries. For what it's worth, six picks later is JJP who has 161 NHL games. Peterka is 9th in his draft class by games played in the NHL. Quinn, despite injury, is at 18th.

The 2019 28th has 161 AHL games and no NHL games. For what it's worth, three picks later is Ryan Johnson who now has 41 NHL games.

The 2018 28th has 34 AHL games and 144 NHL games. He played three seasons in Sweden after his draft and then came to the US where he played half a season in the AHL before getting promoted. Mattias Samuelsson was drafted 4 picks later and, despite his injuries, has played in six more NHL games. For this draft class, the #2 spot in games played is Dahlin--not that this surprises anyone.

The 2017 28th overall has played in 9 NHL games and 217 AHL games.

The 2016 28th overall has 257 AHL games and 9 NHL games under his belt. He is no longer under contract with an NHL club.

Not that I would expect differently, but last years 28th overall pick is still in the OHL. Because that's expected for a 28th overall pick. Jumping straight into the AHL is very, very uncommon for a late first. Of the entire 2023 draft class, Zach Benson has played the most NHL games and he was drafted 13th. Only picks 1, 2, and 3 played meaningful numbers of games (and only two more played in one game).

We did not have 90 picks in the last 5 years. We made 43 selections.

2024 - 8 picks

2023 - 8 picks

2022 - 11 picks

2021 - 11 picks

2020 - 5 picks

You're also ignoring the realities that these players are not all the same "type" of player. Kulich is not remotely the same player as Krebs (who wasn't our draft pick) or Rosen. Östlund plays a completely different game from Savoie. Even that aside, are you seriously suggesting we the team has "no NHLers" at all from the most recent drafts? I guess Quinn and Peterka aren't NHLers. Or Cozens (drafted 5 years ago). Or Johnson or Power. And Benson leading his draft class in games played isn't enough to qualify as an NHL player.

Also the idea that we haven't drafted any "forecheckers" is simply untrue. Helenius is a "forechecker" and we just picked him this season at 14th. #39 from last season, Anton Wahlberg, is the "forechecker" to a T. We had hopes for Kozak, but he's unlikely to make the NHL at this point.

I'm not sure why you think draft picks instantly jump into the NHL after 2-3 years removed from the draft. That doesn't happen. This isn't the NFL.

This is the answer why smart GM use bottom drafts for exchange and only Sabres gather all garbage every new year.

[kas23]

24 minutes ago, JP51 said:

That is my biggest fear... I am giving Terry too much credit cause if I am ... its worse than I thought... (although I thought utterly clueless was a pretty good indication of what I thought LOL )

The thing is, Kevyn has done exactly what he promised Terry he would do. He slimmed down the hockey department, didn’t wantonly spend, shipped out costly contracts that would be a detriment to the team (or Terry’s wallet), and also said he would build this team primarily through the draft. I am not sure winning was explicitly high on the list, but it may have just been assumed.
 

In fact, had he not shipped out Mitts (we could’ve totally afforded him), coupled with the recent FA acquisitions and hiring Ruff, I would think this plan may actually have worked just fine. 

[shrader]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Yes, he was.  Whoever (and really don't believe it was Regier's brain child, again likely the Pittsburgh crew) came up with it wanted the team to be bad but STILL WATCHABLE.  They expected to lose fans, not have attendance decimated.  They were merely really bad in '13-'14 they weren't "Hoe-lee Fack, these guys couldn't even beat a mid-level AHL team" bad.  Like they were at the beginning of the next season running Rolston's "system."  Regier was giving them what they asked for - the worst team in the league.

Do you recall how truly awful that team was when Ron got to set the whole on-ice program?  Though Arizona and a couple others wanted to be bad in '14-'15; that Rolston team was leaps and bounds worse.  They were going to have an open revolt from the fans.  

And, yes, under Murray and Nolan, they were JUST bad enough to be the worst.  Under Rolston the previous year they were about 15 points worse than anybody else and they probably would've been '75 Caps bad had Rolstson stayed the coach the whole season.

And, IMHO, Regier was the most successful "Yes Man" this league has ever seen.  He did whatever the owners told him to do - give Nolan a 1 year deal, get rid of LaFontaine, operate with a significantly lower budget than the rest of the league, but he still put a competitive team out on the ice.  Until he was told to NOT put a competitive team on the ice.  And he did THAT in spades.

Regier would've had the low budget team the Pegulas seem to have wanted during the rebuild.  Can't recall him trading away any of the picks nor prospects he accumulated during the tank.  Maybe he just got punted too soon to do so; but expect he was planning on using most all of them in Buffalo and then the team would augment from outside once Reinhart and Eichel were coming into their primes.  Won't ever know for certain, but it sure seemed that was the plan.

But that’s just it, I’m not calling it a debacle if it was planned… at least not in the context of this thread. A debacle to the fans? Sure, but not a debacle when it comes to the “plan”. 
 

But all those years of suck blend together in my head. 

Edited 7 hours ago by shrader

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, shrader said:

But that’s just it, I’m not calling it a debacle if it was planned… at least not in the context of this thread. A debacle to the fans? Sure, but not a debacle when it comes to the “plan”. 
 

But all those years of suck blend together in my head. 

IMHO that's like saying the EPA accidentally turning the Animas River orange wasn't a debacle because they planned to be draining some water and waste from the mine they were working in and they just ended up releasing a lot more than they'd originally planned.

Or saying a controlled burn that turned into a several 1,000 acre blaze wasn't a debacle because well the people starting the blaze did so intentionally.

The plan was to be worse than the current (at the time) versions of Florida and Arizona and everybody else those 2 particular years.  It wasn't to be worse than the '75 Caps nor the '81 Jets.  That Rolston led team would've been in that conversation.  THAT's a debacle.

Edited 6 hours ago by Taro T

[sabresparaavida]

 

On 7/1/2024 at 10:30 PM, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

Our drafting is just not as good as generally believed. We still have no one ready. From Krebs (who was a major acquisition) to Benson. There are no NHLers there. Krebs, Rosen, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich and Benson…. None are ready to help an NHL team win although they are all #1 draft picks. I think they are way too similar as well. They have differences, but they too much similarity. KA is banking on these kids to play top roles but I think there is a chance that any combination of the above players could make a successful line in the NHL and that is poor drafting. We have drafted zero forecheckers in the last five years as well. That must be around 90 picks. That is unforgivable as well…. It really is….

Complaining about Kulich, Östlund, and Savoie not being ready for the NHL seems pretty silly when you consider that from their draft year, only 2 players agave played a full season’s worth of games, and only 7 have played 30 or more. 

[shrader]

54 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IMHO that's like saying the EPA accidentally turning the Animas River orange wasn't a debacle because they planned to be draining some water and waste from the mine they were working in and they just ended up releasing a lot more than they'd originally planned.

Or saying a controlled burn that turned into a several 1,000 acre blaze wasn't a debacle because well the people starting the blaze did so intentionally.

The plan was to be worse than the current (at the time) versions of Florida and Arizona and everybody else those 2 particular years.  It wasn't to be worse than the '75 Caps nor the '81 Jets.  That Rolston led team would've been in that conversation.  THAT's a debacle.

Go big or go home.