dudacek Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: Oh my such a fierce sideways scratch from kitty. The "knowledgeable" vs. the "grumpy old obsessives" Me-Ow. There are fans, and then there are people who understand hockey. They are not always the same. But just look over this topic. The vast majority do not want Skinner. There is just argument over this year or next year or lower line etc. There isn't any skepticism or rebuttal over the idea that Ruff might want him gone. Consider that for your knowledge base. Damn, did you ever misread my post.
PerreaultForever Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 minute ago, dudacek said: Damn, did you ever misread my post. No. The fact you included yourself is why I said "sideways".
dudacek Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said: No. The fact you included yourself is why I said "sideways". My main point was Sabrespace represents a small segment of the most hardcore portion of the fanbase and our feelings about Skinner are not representative of Sabre fans as a whole. And it was never about “knowledgeable fans versus grumpy obsessives”. I think there is a considerable crossover between those two circles, particularly here. And I did “consider this thread for my knowledge base”. It’s exactly where I found evidence of knowledgeable fans making feasible arguments for keeping Skinner. Just because I don’t share their views doesn’t make them not knowledgeable.
PerreaultForever Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 14 minutes ago, dudacek said: My main point was Sabrespace represents a small segment of the most hardcore portion of the fanbase and our feelings about Skinner are not representative of Sabre fans as a whole. And it was never about “knowledgeable fans versus grumpy obsessives”. I think there is a considerable crossover between those two circles, particularly here. And I did “consider this thread for my knowledge base”. It’s exactly where I found evidence of knowledgeable fans making feasible arguments for keeping Skinner. Just because I don’t share their views doesn’t make them not knowledgeable. Well yes, I said this several posts back. You can make arguments for keeping him using logic and evaluating his stats and salary cap numbers and so forth, and a few have, but that misses the intangibles that come into play. That is the crux of the matter. There is no dollar amount you can place on team culture. That's the real point, and if Ruff does want him gone, that is what it is all about. 1
JohnC Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 10 hours ago, Taro T said: As have said before, would prefer they not buy Skinner out this year. (Expect it makes more sense next year, though it isn't a given he gets bought out next year. See almost no way he plays year 8 on the contract here.) BUT if Ruff doesn't want him for WHATEVER reason - he wants a more 2 way player in his slot, he expects having a veteran that has no idea what his own side of the blue line looks like being a model for the youngest team in the league is a bad idea, he doesn't see Skinner HATING losing, or whatever, then he will be bought out should Adams not be able to convince another GM and Skinner that he'd be a great fit on that other GM's team. IF Ruff doesn't want Skinner here then the comparison between Satan and Jeff could be extremely apt. They'd be willing to get rid of him without an obvious replacement for his goals on the roster. And again, this is SPECULATION. Said in the B&G I thread, that personally expect he's pencilled in on the 3rd line. But that was this kid's expectation prior to hearing Adams talk that night. This morning, Adams literally said a buyout is something they are considering and it's an option that's on the table. You don't get to that statement without having given it careful consideration and expect that's likely the way you're leaning because if he's here in 3 weeks, they'll have a (can't recall the adjective Adams always uses describing his conversations with his players, but insert that here) conversation about today's press conference. And the relationship could be significantly damaged by what was said today &/or in that future conversation. The both of us agree that Skinner does not fit the profile of a player that Lindy prefers. However, I'm confident in saying that no coach inherits a team in which all the players are the players the coach would want if starting from scratch. Is Skinner in Ruff's or the organization's long-term plans? It' safe to say no. But even if that's the case that doesn't mean that for the short-term (this season) keeping him in an altered role isn't the best option for now. It seems to me that I value his primary talent of scoring goals relative to his liabilities more than most people here do. My sense (opinion) is that the GM will soon be making a number of moves. Will they be blockbuster type moves? I don't think so, but they probably will go beyond tinkering. As a hockey fan this is a period of time where there is a lot of speculation before transactions take place. We shall see. 1
JohnC Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 9 hours ago, dudacek said: The more I think about the way the Skinner leak came out and the way Adams addressed it, the more convinced I am that this was the classic planned leak for preparing the fan base for a controversial decision that has already been made. He gone. Like the Mittelstadt deal, for it to make sense, another shoe has to drop. What's so controversial about a decision to buy-out or trade Skinner? A sizeable majority fans desire it. The controversy would come into play if he was kept. 1
Archie Lee Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said: Well yes, I said this several posts back. You can make arguments for keeping him using logic and evaluating his stats and salary cap numbers and so forth, and a few have, but that misses the intangibles that come into play. That is the crux of the matter. There is no dollar amount you can place on team culture. That's the real point, and if Ruff does want him gone, that is what it is all about. I’m not saying you are wrong on the culture piece or on Ruff wanting him gone, though I don’t have reason to think Skinner is horrible for team culture or that Ruff refuses to work with him (Ruff has coached many one-dimensional forwards in his career). I do think that to focus on culture is to also overlook some cold hard facts that just support it is time to move on from Skinner: - Skinner is currently tied with Kaprizov as the 25th highest paid forward in the league - Of the 24 forwards who make more than Skinner, last season only one produced less (Backstrom, who was limited to 8 games by injury) - Skinner was 107th among forwards in points - He is at an age where there can be diminishing returns. - A buyout before the end of his contract might now be inevitable - The short-term buyout cost does not get appreciably better if you wait until next season and if you proceed now you gain $7.55 million in space to remake the line-up in a critical year As fans, we are actually remarkably easy on Skinner. Players who make what he makes are expected to be the difference for their teams. We don’t expect this from him. In a year where we needed our $9 million player to produce 35 goals / 70 points and pull us towards the playoffs, he was really bad. He is just nowhere close to being a $9 million player and if they act now they have a real opportunity to make major change. Edited June 21 by Archie Lee 5
GASabresIUFAN Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 After listening to the press conference it seems pretty clear that Skinner is on the way out. How did that conversation go? KA - Jeff you really crapped the bed in the second half of the season. JS - I know, but I’ve had tough seasons before and always bounce back. KA - That’s true, but you still don’t back check and we need the guys to finally buy in on playing to ways. JS - I’ll try. Kevyn I really like it here and I think I can be part of the solution. KA - I’m sorry Jeff, you are a good guy and an elite scorer when your on, but the team has decided to go in a different direction. Please give me some teams you’ll accept a trade to and I’ll see what I can get done. If I can’t find a suitable trade, we are going to buy you out. By the way here is the card for Zemgus’ Real Estate broker.
Stads Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said: After listening to the press conference it seems pretty clear that Skinner is on the way out. How did that conversation go? Is that really what happened? 2
mjd1001 Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 2 hours ago, JohnC said: What's so controversial about a decision to buy-out or trade Skinner? A sizeable majority fans desire it. The controversy would come into play if he was kept. ON this message board maybe. But I would not say for sure a 'sizeable majority' desire it. I get the impression that when I talk to 'casual' fans, or even some people who go to games but don't follow the every day ins-and-outs, my impression is he is quite popular among them, I'd guess if you include the entire fan base, well under half would actively want him gone. 1 1
dudacek Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 2 hours ago, JohnC said: What's so controversial about a decision to buy-out or trade Skinner? A sizeable majority fans desire it. The controversy would come into play if he was kept. i guess controversy is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't see how there could be any backlash to a loser franchise paying a 30-goal scorer with funny videos and dimples $14M to not play for your team any more, you don't see it. 1
Doohicksie Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 12 hours ago, ... said: I just hope it's not a buyout. A trade makes more sense for all parties involved except Skinner. fify
... Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 hour ago, Doohickie said: fify The only thing that might work better for Skinner is nothing happening at all. The problem with that is all of the scuttlebutt over a possible buyout. A trade is the most face-saving move at this point.
msw2112 Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 I understand the animosity towards Skinner, but he does have some plusses as a player: He's a very productive goal scorer (which every team needs) He's a scrappy guy who gets under opponents' skin (which the Sabres need in abundance) There's no indication that he's not a team player or a negative presence in the locker room Chances are that he's on the way out as he's not helpful in the defensive zone and doesn't appear to play well in a structure, but the guy is not a terrible hockey player. He's clearly overpaid, but if he is bought out, there's a financial loss, plus, there will be significant cost to replace his offensive production. Maybe Lindy can work with the guy to overcome his deficiencies. He'll likely have more influence than a Krueger or Granato did, as he's a proven winner in the league. I'll leave that up to Lindy (and Adams) to decide. 1 1
kas23 Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 hour ago, msw2112 said: I understand the animosity towards Skinner, but he does have some plusses as a player: He's a very productive goal scorer (which every team needs) He's a scrappy guy who gets under opponents' skin (which the Sabres need in abundance) There's no indication that he's not a team player or a negative presence in the locker room Chances are that he's on the way out as he's not helpful in the defensive zone and doesn't appear to play well in a structure, but the guy is not a terrible hockey player. He's clearly overpaid, but if he is bought out, there's a financial loss, plus, there will be significant cost to replace his offensive production. Maybe Lindy can work with the guy to overcome his deficiencies. He'll likely have more influence than a Krueger or Granato did, as he's a proven winner in the league. I'll leave that up to Lindy (and Adams) to decide. I agree with the above, but buying him out is a net gain in cap room. Maybe not to Terry, but to me there’s a financial gain. We gain a significant amount of cap space by doing this and will be able to sign someone of value.
Thorner Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 19 hours ago, ... said: Mitts did jack-all in Colorado's playoff run. Did UPL drag us into the playoffs by sheer will? No. Using either of these guys as examples of misplaced fan ire is presumptuous. 9 points in 11 games and MacKinnon said he was their best player after the Jets series. Ok
Doohicksie Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 5 hours ago, ... said: The only thing that might work better for Skinner is nothing happening at all. The problem with that is all of the scuttlebutt over a possible buyout. A trade is the most face-saving move at this point. If Skinner is bought out, He gets his money. He can sign wherever he can strike a deal, regardless of what Sabres might want in return for a trade.
Thorner Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 10 hours ago, JohnC said: What's so controversial about a decision to buy-out or trade Skinner? A sizeable majority fans desire it. The controversy would come into play if he was kept. He literally explained this tho 18 hours ago, dudacek said: With some grumpy old obsessives like you and me maybe. Among the knowledgeable fanbase there is division on that, and those against the move are raising legitimate points: this is bad for the cap down the road; how do we replace the goals; and who do we have that’s better? For the broader fanbase, Skinner is the guy with the funny videos, cute dimples and those ridiculous goal songs. That get played a lot. He’s one of the team’s best known and liked players.
Thorner Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 7 hours ago, mjd1001 said: ON this message board maybe. But I would not say for sure a 'sizeable majority' desire it. I get the impression that when I talk to 'casual' fans, or even some people who go to games but don't follow the every day ins-and-outs, my impression is he is quite popular among them, I'd guess if you include the entire fan base, well under half would actively want him gone. It’s not just casuals. A massive factor is also where your priorities are for next season
... Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 8 minutes ago, Thorny said: 9 points in 11 games and MacKinnon said he was their best player after the Jets series. Ok Did you watch any of their games?
JohnC Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 3 minutes ago, Thorny said: He literally explained this tho I'm not saying that he is wrong. I'm simply saying that I don't see a buyout of Skinner or trade as being very controversial. That's my view. If you want to say for a faction of the fanbase it would be controversial, then it's likely to be. But it is rare that there is ever any unanimity on any transaction. 1
Thorner Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 1 minute ago, ... said: Did you watch any of their games? It’s not my fault the barometer you chose for your argument was “Jack-sh*t.”
... Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 Just now, Thorny said: It’s not my fault the barometer you chose for your argument was “Jack-sh*t.” So, you didn't watch them. Gotcha.
Thorner Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not saying that he is wrong. I'm simply saying that I don't see a buyout of Skinner or trade as being very controversial. That's my view. If you want to say for a faction of the fanbase it would be controversial, then it's likely to be. But it is rare that there is ever any unanimity on any transaction. I know but you asked what was controversial presumably re: the perception of others and he laid it out
PerreaultForever Posted June 21 Report Posted June 21 2 hours ago, msw2112 said: I understand the animosity towards Skinner, but he does have some plusses as a player: He's a very productive goal scorer (which every team needs) He's a scrappy guy who gets under opponents' skin (which the Sabres need in abundance) There's no indication that he's not a team player or a negative presence in the locker room Chances are that he's on the way out as he's not helpful in the defensive zone and doesn't appear to play well in a structure, but the guy is not a terrible hockey player. He's clearly overpaid, but if he is bought out, there's a financial loss, plus, there will be significant cost to replace his offensive production. Maybe Lindy can work with the guy to overcome his deficiencies. He'll likely have more influence than a Krueger or Granato did, as he's a proven winner in the league. I'll leave that up to Lindy (and Adams) to decide. I don't think he will want to. Unlike Granato, I think Ruff is going to instill a certain level day one and what Lindy wants is a place where he sets that bar and he doesn't have to worry about problem children. Everyone works for that bar and beyond 24/7. And if you don't, you sit or you're gone. They already know from the Kreuger time that Skinner will just shut down and float if pressed or asked to do what he doesn't want to do. They want to avoid that.
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