Have the Sabres' trades made us better?

[Buffalonill]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

I still think we won the Reinhart trade but I doubt Florida even remotely regrets any part of it. 

Buffalo got a bunch of lottery tickets Florida got a guy that scored  121 goals with 243 points in 246 games 

 

Buffalo lost 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m certainly no fan of Adams or his management of the Sabres roster and I agree with the notion that the top 5 players sent out (or lost to free agency) (Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Mitts, and Ullmark) are better than the guys currently playing their positions (Thompson, Cozens, Power/Byram, Krebs & UPL).  However, the team has more depth of talent across the roster, especially at the wings with the addtions of JJP, Benson, Tuch, Quinn and Greenway.
 

 

As you observantly point out, KA has restocked the system. When he took over, he said it was a priority to accomplish that mission. Most observers will acknowledge that he has done that well. The Sabres are now at the next stage where winning now trumps not only the development of players but also the accumulation of players/prospects. As you have frequently noted (rightly so), this franchise has the cap space, prospects in the system and draft picks to parlay to upgrade this current roster. This is going to be a critical offseason. The hiring of Lindy was a good decision. He needs to follow up this critical hire by bringing in enough players to improve and better balance this roster. At this point, excuses can no longer be tolerated. Your record is your record. 

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

you said, Florida won’t care because they’ve already “won” by any principle they’d actually care to measure by 

Even if Levi leads the Sabres to a Cup in a few years, they will regard that as ancient history, especially their fans.

Same idea as Thompson ending up with better career numbers than ROR, they got their Cup.

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, RangerDave said:

It's an open-ended question, so I will let you draw your own line.

For me, I would draw the line at when Adams became the GM.  Seems like a good place to make conclusions from.

In a vacuum, I believe trading Eichel was something that had to happen due to the circumstances of his injury an dthe treatment he was seeking.  I believe should not have traded Reinhart.  I think Risto would have been a good component of a good playoff team, which we have not been.  I don't think he made that Sabres team better.  I didn't like trading Mitts either.

I think each trade was made for a reason, in a vacuum.  The same for not re-signing certain players.  I just wonder what the team woud be now if we had kept the best of them.  Was the team atmosphere so rotten that management felt they had to jettison the influencers?  Could that problem had been solved another way, through coaching or bringing in mentoring players for instance?

Just a thought experiment.  Some will draw conclusions about managament, coaching, ownership, and/or player personalities.  I don't know if there is only one thing to point a finger at.

I have had changing views over the years as to what's wrong and who has to go etc. but when I look at how almost all of the players we remove do well/better in their new locations I think it means that our biggest problems have been bad coaching and a crappy team culture that goes partly with that. 

Players who come here generally do worse than they did before and players who leave do better. This screams bad team culture. 

The style and ever changing plans with too much individual play and poor team defense scream bad coaching. Not getting the most out of what players offer as well (eg. Montour). 

So if they pick a good captain and Ruff is still a good coach, MAYBE it changes? idk, one can hope. 

[Cranky old man]

We are a beleaguered franchise that has existed on hope for the last ten years. We performed another moving tank exercise to replenish the farm; Adam’s didn’t know any other way. Naturally the players sent away are better than what we have.   The comparison however, is one of established players to younger developing talent. The key difference is the quantity of young players under development now compared to four years ago. There is an ownership and budget dynamic at play here that remains somewhat mysterious. A situation further complicated by Mrs. Pegula’s very unfortunate illness. It all plays into the nostalgia hire of Lindy which made 40% of the ticket base instantly happy. In the final analysis it all comes down to playoffs this year or Adams will cement his performance as the worst GM in hockey. History tells us Lindy will end the trend of collecting the same types of players. A change necessary to the advancement of this team. So here I am, hoping. 

Edited June 18 by Cranky old man

[Doohicksie]

I think there are roster moves where Kevyn did well and others that he mishandled.  The two big ones, at least early in Kevyn's tenure, are the Eichel and Reino trades.

Eichel trade:  Eichel wanted out because he didn't want to be part of another rebuild.  His nagging neck injury progressed to the point where he couldn't play.  Under the circumstances I think Kevyn got a marvelous return in Tuch, a team leader, Krebs, a roster player (possibly transitional), 2022 first-round pick (Noah Östlund) and 2023 second-round pick (Riley Heidt).  Obviously Östlund and Heidt are for the future, but Tuch and Krebs were pretty good return in themselves for a player that was damaged goods and wanted out.  It made the team better in the short run (considering Eichel was injured) and possibly the long run, depending on how the picks pan out.  I would give this trade an A.

Reino trade:  This one is a bit murkier.  I think it started out with the 2020 bridge contract Adams gave Reino, sending a clear message to Samson that he was not part of the Sabres future and indicating that Kevyn was looking to rebuild the roster.  In that context, Reinhart had to go.  The return, Devon Levi and the late 1st round pick that became Jiri Kulich, were both futures.  There was no present value in the return.  I think Kevyn got something he wanted- a very good goalie prospect, but on the other hand he forced himself into having to do it by signing Reino to a short term contract.  If he had locked Reinhart up for 7 years like other forwards, he wouldn't have been backed into a corner.  I would give this trade an Incomplete grade.  It hinges on the prospects returned becoming significant contributors to the team.  (But this is what the trade was on the surface anyway:  Present Value for Future Value)

But with those two trades I can see what Kevyn was doing.  He restarted the timeline on building the team and got some valuable pieces for the future.

The next big move is Mitts trade.  Again, Adams painted himself into a corner by not even starting contract talks with Mitts (if Casey's camp is to be believed), for a player that seemed to want to stay in Buffalo.  By neglecting to even see what Casey might want, he imposed urgency on himself to move Mittelstadt.  I think Kevyn mishandled the Mittelstadt contract situation and that put him into a position of having to trade Casey, and getting whatever he could for him.  When he moved Mitts he created a significant hole in the top nine:  Casey is very versatile and capable of playing anywhere in the top nine.  When he stepped in for an injured Tage on the top line in the spring of 2023, the line didn't miss a beat, and he even allowed Donny to play Tage at wing when he first returned from injury.  As a 2C or 3C he was very good.  He could also play wing.  The Sabres had developed him and just as the investment was beginning to pay off, they moved him.  The Sabres got Byram in return. 

In contrast to the Reino and Eichel trades where those players were moved to transform the roster and set it up for the future, the Mitts trade was more of a Present Value for Present Value kind of trade.  But there wasn't an obvious hole on defense that Byram filled while the deletion of Mitts from the forward ranks created a hole that still hasn't been filled.  I give this trade a C-.

So on the big trades, Kevyn is a mixed bag at best.  And while he was pretty good early on at acquiring futures, I don't see him as very good at refining the roster to fill areas of need.  Hopefully Lindy can help determine the roster moves Kevyn makes this offseason to get the build back on track.

Edited June 19 by Doohickie

[The Jokeman]

In retrospect Murray put together some good players but they for whatever reason didn't mesh together as ROR, Eichel, Lehner and most likely Reinhert, Okposo and Kulikov likely going to be Stanley Cup winner maybe others on the list as missed but those were first names I remember. We can blame coaching but who knows for whatever reason they didn't work here. Yet I won't say we're better until see it on the ice and thus far I haven't. 

[Doohicksie]

7 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

In retrospect Murray put together some good players but they for whatever reason didn't mesh together as ROR, Eichel, Lehner and most likely Reinhert, Okposo and Kulikov likely going to be Stanley Cup winner maybe others on the list as missed but those were first names I remember. We can blame coaching but who knows for whatever reason they didn't work here. Yet I won't say we're better until see it on the ice and thus far I haven't. 

XGMTM won every trade he made.  He's a case study in why winning the individual trades aren't as important as putting together a good team.

[Pimlach]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:22 AM, Doohickie said:

I think there are roster moves where Kevyn did well and others that he mishandled.  The two big ones, at least early in Kevyn's tenure, are the Eichel and Reino trades.

Eichel trade:  Eichel wanted out because he didn't want to be part of another rebuild.  His nagging neck injury progressed to the point where he couldn't play.  Under the circumstances I think Kevyn got a marvelous return in Tuch, a team leader, Krebs, a roster player (possibly transitional), 2022 first-round pick (Noah Östlund) and 2023 second-round pick (Riley Heidt).  Obviously Östlund and Heidt are for the future, but Tuch and Krebs were pretty good return in themselves for a player that was damaged goods and wanted out.  It made the team better in the short run (considering Eichel was injured) and possibly the long run, depending on how the picks pan out.  I would give this trade an A.

Reino trade:  This one is a bit murkier.  I think it started out with the 2020 bridge contract Adams gave Reino, sending a clear message to Samson that he was not part of the Sabres future and indicating that Kevyn was looking to rebuild the roster.  In that context, Reinhart had to go.  The return, Devon Levi and the late 1st round pick that became Jiri Kulich, were both futures.  There was no present value in the return.  I think Kevyn got something he wanted- a very good goalie prospect, but on the other hand he forced himself into having to do it by signing Reino to a short term contract.  If he had locked Reinhart up for 7 years like other forwards, he wouldn't have been backed into a corner.  I would give this trade an Incomplete grade.  It hinges on the prospects returned becoming significant contributors to the team.  (But this is what the trade was on the surface anyway:  Present Value for Future Value)

But with those two trades I can see what Kevyn was doing.  He restarted the timeline on building the team and got some valuable pieces for the future.

The next big move is Mitts trade.  Again, Adams painted himself into a corner by not even starting contract talks with Mitts (if Casey's camp is to be believed), for a player that seemed to want to stay in Buffalo.  By neglecting to even see what Casey might want, he imposed urgency on himself to move Mittelstadt.  I think Kevyn mishandled the Mittelstadt contract situation and that put him into a position of having to trade Casey, and getting whatever he could for him.  When he moved Mitts he created a significant hole in the top nine:  Casey is very versatile and capable of playing anywhere in the top nine.  When he stepped in for an injured Tage on the top line in the spring of 2023, the line didn't miss a beat, and he even allowed Donny to play Tage at wing when he first returned from injury.  As a 2C or 3C he was very good.  He could also play wing.  The Sabres had developed him and just as the investment was beginning to pay off, they moved him.  The Sabres got Byram in return. 

In contrast to the Reino and Eichel trades where those players were moved to transform the roster and set it up for the future, the Mitts trade was more of a Present Value for Present Value kind of trade.  But there wasn't an obvious hole on defense that Byram filled while the deletion of Mitts from the forward ranks created a hole that still hasn't been filled.  I give this trade a C-.

So on the big trades, Kevyn is a mixed bag at best.  And while he was pretty good early on at acquiring futures, I don't see him as very good at refining the roster to fill areas of need.  Hopefully Lindy can help determine the roster moves Kevyn makes this offseason to get the build back on track.

Buffalo did not actually draft Riley Hiedt, Minnesota did.  They traded that pick (a 2nd round 64th overall), which came from Vegas as part of the Eichel trade, to Minnesota for Greenway. 

So we have Tuch, Krebs, Östlund, and Greenway for Eichel.   

[Pimlach]

23 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

In retrospect Murray put together some good players but they for whatever reason didn't mesh together as ROR, Eichel, Lehner and most likely Reinhert, Okposo and Kulikov likely going to be Stanley Cup winner maybe others on the list as missed but those were first names I remember. We can blame coaching but who knows for whatever reason they didn't work here. Yet I won't say we're better until see it on the ice and thus far I haven't. 

There were many reasons, call it chemistry for lack of a better word.  Murray's group really started to rot an already bad culture.  

Coaching was a factor.   

Leadership on the team was probably an even bigger factor.   

Maturity of the players.  Eichel and Reinhart were very young and being asked to carry more load than they could at the time.

Some of the players acquired were very distracted and had personal issues that they brought with them  - see Kane and Bogo.  

Lehner had a bunch of problems too, most of that came out a few years later.  

Veterans brought in like Gionta, Gorges, and Moulson were no longer effective players or listened too.   Factions started to grow within the players  that remained after Murray and Byslma were gone. 

On top of all that Murray did not draft (or develop) very well.  

 

Edited June 20 by Pimlach

[Doohicksie]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Buffalo did not actually draft Riley Hiedt, Minnesota did.  They traded that pick (a 2nd round 64th overall), which came from Vegas as part of the Eichel trade, to Minnesota for Greenway. 

So we have Tuch, Krebs, Östlund, and Greenway for Eichel.   

Yeah, I posted that list in another thread and someone corrected me.  So for Eichel we got a first line wing/team leader, a 4C that may or may not work out, a promising prospect and a bottom 6 banger.  I think that's good return for a player that, at the time, was disgruntled damaged goods.

[Pimlach]

33 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Yeah, I posted that list in another thread and someone corrected me.  So for Eichel we got a first line wing/team leader, a 4C that may or may not work out, a promising prospect and a bottom 6 banger.  I think that's good return for a player that, at the time, was disgruntled damaged goods.

Yes.  They but wanted more than a 4C from Krebs though.  A solid 3C that can create offense was what I thought he could be at one time.  His shot as 3C came and he didn’t do much with it.  Still young, maybe it clicks soon, maybe not.  

Tuch has been very good. Östlund is TBD.  

Greenway has been well worth giving up the #2 for.  More trades like that please. 

[Thorner]

Not this one so far 

[Doohicksie]

Yeah.

 

 

 

...yeah.

[Doohicksie]

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Not this one so far 

But also:

Is Jeff Skinner really that ineffective for the team?  Is Zach Benson really as good as everyone says?  They're nearly equal actually.  Perception?

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But also:

Is Jeff Skinner really that ineffective for the team?  Is Zach Benson really as good as everyone says?  They're nearly equal actually.  Perception?

Absolutely perception.

I have no idea what those numbers signify, I crush on Benson’s approach to hockey and grimace at Skinner’s but I can’t really argue with concept the 2 had a roughly similar impact on the Sabres success or lack thereof last year.

One of the reasons I’m OK with dumping Skinner, but not if the plan is to replace him in house.

[...]

Benson = 18y/o @ $.95m

Skinner = 32y/o @ $9m

Being slightly above replacement level means several different things for each.

And I don't know if GAR/60 adjusts for position, so that number for Byram could be less meaningful than +/- or more meaningful than +/-.

Edited June 20 by ...
»»————-　★　————-««

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

But also:

Is Jeff Skinner really that ineffective for the team?  Is Zach Benson really as good as everyone says?  They're nearly equal actually.  Perception?

Would be really interested in seeing Benson's #'s broken out with October - early December & March and April in 1 cohort and the rest of the season in the other.  Benson seemed to slide a bit mid-season but also seemed to get a "second wind" the last 15 or so games.

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 6/20/2024 at 6:20 PM, Thorny said:

Not this one so far 

More evidence that Adams does k ow what the hell he’s doing.  
 

So Adams traded away his most versatile forward, who he didn’t offer a contract to and who was his best was his best forward last season, creating a huge hole in his lineup that he couldn’t fill for a redundant defenseman who can’t play defense effectively and didn’t generate offense after the first few games.  Sounds like a great trade. 

Edited June 22 by GASabresIUFAN