OT- More WNY Love - Rochester/Buffalo both ranked top 6 in most affordable cities in the world

[RochesterExpat]

Every place has drawbacks and advantages. My argument about housing not accounting for higher taxes is a true statement. Not sure why the seemingly hostile response. WNY housing is misleading when it comes to affordability.

Here are the realities from my own personal experience. My house in Texas is valued by the county at $850,000 and my property tax bill is $8,200. My insurance on the house is $3,750 a year in Texas ($5k deductible for the roof which is on the more expensive side, for sure). This is the same state where apparently every house is leveled every 5 to 10 years—even though Monroe County, NY has had more tornadoes the last ten years than my county in Texas. Anyway, that’s basically $12,000 a year in property tax + insurance on an $850,000, 3,700 square foot home with a four car attached garage.

Now we can talk about Florida and income tax. It’s not as much as people think, but a quick calculator assumes $10,000 in NY income tax on $200,000 taxable income for a married couple. Since no income tax in Texas would make this Florida rule apply, I’m adding it in.

I don’t see a 10 year old 3,700 square foot home with a four car attached garage costing less than $12,000 a year in insurance and property tax in NY. At least not in economically equivalent areas. Much less when we add in the $10,000 in income taxes.

But my point was about the effect on the market. By raising property taxes to avoid cutting spending— a requirement due to depressed real estate prices from heavy industry leaving (among other things) in the 70s and 80s—WNY essentially kept property values depressed. It directly affects the affordability of most buyers. Cash buyers are the exception.

It’s also worth mentioning that those school taxes go to a lot. My hometown outside Rochester offers a lot more AP classes and general college prep programs than where we currently live. College placement and standardized exam scores are roughly the same so academically the schools are pretty similar, but NY certainly wins by a country mile when it comes to opportunities. I would happily pay more tax for those kinds of opportunities, but we generally just want to spend tax money on high school football stadiums.

There isn’t anything wrong with WNY. It’s a great place to raise a family. It’s just the taxes cause the cost of housing to be higher than I believe that article is giving credit to.

[matter2003]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I think Rochester and Buffalo are both nice, especially the suburbs... Though North Buffalo is also very nice IMO.

Pittsburgh is a really good city in my opinion. I'd easily live there. Cleveland is okay too, though not as good as Pittsburgh from my limited experience. Detroit is still a pass for me, though it's coming around. The rest I haven't been to, but I'd like to see Cincinnati as I understand it's made a recovery similar to Pittsburgh.

I couldn't deal with the constant ups/downs and twists and turns of the roads there...cannot even imagine what it must be like driving when there is snow or ice on the ground... it's definitely a cool city to visit tho, although only in the summer for me 😂

20 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

Every place has drawbacks and advantages. My argument about housing not accounting for higher taxes is a true statement. Not sure why the seemingly hostile response. WNY housing is misleading when it comes to affordability.

Here are the realities from my own personal experience. My house in Texas is valued by the county at $850,000 and my property tax bill is $8,200. My insurance on the house is $3,750 a year in Texas ($5k deductible for the roof which is on the more expensive side, for sure). This is the same state where apparently every house is leveled every 5 to 10 years—even though Monroe County, NY has had more tornadoes the last ten years than my county in Texas. Anyway, that’s basically $12,000 a year in property tax + insurance on an $850,000, 3,700 square foot home with a four car attached garage.

Now we can talk about Florida and income tax. It’s not as much as people think, but a quick calculator assumes $10,000 in NY income tax on $200,000 taxable income for a married couple. Since no income tax in Texas would make this Florida rule apply, I’m adding it in.

I don’t see a 10 year old 3,700 square foot home with a four car attached garage costing less than $12,000 a year in insurance and property tax in NY. At least not in economically equivalent areas. Much less when we add in the $10,000 in income taxes.

But my point was about the effect on the market. By raising property taxes to avoid cutting spending— a requirement due to depressed real estate prices from heavy industry leaving (among other things) in the 70s and 80s—WNY essentially kept property values depressed. It directly affects the affordability of most buyers. Cash buyers are the exception.

It’s also worth mentioning that those school taxes go to a lot. My hometown outside Rochester offers a lot more AP classes and general college prep programs than where we currently live. College placement and standardized exam scores are roughly the same so academically the schools are pretty similar, but NY certainly wins by a country mile when it comes to opportunities. I would happily pay more tax for those kinds of opportunities, but we generally just want to spend tax money on high school football stadiums.

There isn’t anything wrong with WNY. It’s a great place to raise a family. It’s just the taxes cause the cost of housing to be higher than I believe that article is giving credit to.

The taxes also go to pay teachers who get paid basically like fast food employees in the Southern US which explains the standardized test scores plummeting in those states over the last few decades. In some places, they could actually work in fast food and make more than they do teaching. What person in their right mind is signing up for garbage pay, coming out of their own pocket for classroom supplies constantly and dealing with kids that have no respect for anyone due parents who have no respect for anyone and who have kids that can do no wrong?  

It's like that everywhere, but at least teachers up here get paid to deal with the crap.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[Goldseatsaud]

And the political climate has ruined the area. 

[matter2003]

9 minutes ago, Goldseatsaud said:

And the political climate has ruined the area. 

But living down in Texas with border/migrant/immigrant/Mexican cartel issues is great somehow? Not to mention weeks and weeks of unrelenting temperatures over 90+ and sometimes more than a month straight of 100+?  When you have to plan outdoor activities around potentially dying due to heat, something isn't right.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, Goldseatsaud said:

And the political climate has ruined the area. 

Which area?

[LGR4GM]

Data is now 2 years old but here is a rough overview of the teacher shortages in the US.

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/teacher-shortages-by-state-fix-the-problem/

[matter2003]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Data is now 2 years old but here is a rough overview of the teacher shortages in the US.

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/teacher-shortages-by-state-fix-the-problem/

Yeah, they are all mostly where they get paid like fast food workers. It's a joke. In NYS, most districts have waiting lists with hundreds of job applicants and no openings.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[JoeSchmoe]

Good discussion so far, and relatively civil.

Lots of good posts.

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Goldseatsaud said:

And the political climate has ruined the area. 

I view it as just the opposite.  Do I agree with every political decision made here (or anywhere for that matter)?  No.  But the 'politics', the laws passed, don't really have a major negative impact on my life day to day here in WNY.

Florida (among other areas we visit) on the other had...to me is much worse.  I lived there 2 times in my life for quite a few years. Most of my in-laws still live there. We own a house there we still rent.  We go there a couple times a year and I'll take the 'political climate' in WNY any day of the week, and it has little to do with what 'side' I am on (I truly am a centrist on most issues, which means right now I hate both of our potential candidates for president as a choice)...and this is what I mean:

When we visit florida, Politics are all over the place (much more than WNY). More political signs on people's lawn. More bumper stickers. More cars and trucks decorated with the name of your 'chosen candidate' (for the life of me I have no idea what you want to literally paint someone else's name on your vehicle.)  Go to a McDonalds or a Panera in the morning for coffee and you see a group of people sitting in the corner just talking politics..and making SURE they talk loud enough so everyone hears their opinion.  Same at the supermarket.  My in-laws neighbors, they like to come over when we show up, say hello, and then IMMEDIATLY start talking about politics. Yeah, people I hardly know that see us 2 times a year.  And this is my favorite one.  People LOVE to tell you their side of politics (without you caring or asking), go in depth about it, and then they ask you if you agree with them.  I could be 'kinda' on the same side of the issues as they are, but if they bring up 4 points and I agree with 3 of them, then they get mad, call you names and walk away because obviously i'm an 'idiot' for not agreeing with all 4 of their points.

Yes, you get that all over, even here in WNY, but I get a LOT less of it here compared to when I have to go to Florida and other areas to visit 2-3 times per year. 

I think its just the opposite of politics ruining WNY, Politics have NOT ruined my lifestyle here compared to what I need to put up with in other places.  I would much, MUCH rather have to deal with some political laws that I don't agree with but also don't really impact my day to day life in a major way that much....than live in a place where I simply cannot get away from confrontational people that are very public with you and in-your-face about politics. 

Edited June 17 by mjd1001

[JoeSchmoe]

43 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I view it as just the opposite.  Do I agree with every political decision made here (or anywhere for that matter)?  No.  But the 'politics', the laws passed, don't really have a major negative impact on my life day to day here in WNY.

Florida (among other areas we visit) on the other had...to me is much worse.  I lived there 2 times in my life for quite a few years. Most of my in-laws still live there. We own a house there we still rent.  We go there a couple times a year and I'll take the 'political climate' in WNY any day of the week, and it has little to do with what 'side' I am on (I truly am a centrist on most issues, which means right now I hate both of our potential candidates for president as a choice)...and this is what I mean:

When we visit florida, Politics are all over the place (much more than WNY). More political signs on people's lawn. More bumper stickers. More cars and trucks decorated with the name of your 'chosen candidate' (for the life of me I have no idea what you want to literally paint someone else's name on your vehicle.)  Go to a McDonalds or a Panera in the morning for coffee and you see a group of people sitting in the corner just talking politics..and making SURE they talk loud enough so everyone hears their opinion.  Same at the supermarket.  My in-laws neighbors, they like to come over when we show up, say hello, and then IMMEDIATLY start talking about politics. Yeah, people I hardly know that see us 2 times a year.  And this is my favorite one.  People LOVE to tell you their side of politics (without you caring or asking), go in depth about it, and then they ask you if you agree with them.  I could be 'kinda' on the same side of the issues as they are, but if they bring up 4 points and I agree with 3 of them, then they get mad, call you names and walk away because obviously i'm an 'idiot' for not agreeing with all 4 of their points.

Yes, you get that all over, even here in WNY, but I get a LOT less of it here then when I have to go to Florida and other areas to visit 2-3 times per year. 

I think its just the opposite of politics ruining WNY, Politics have NOT ruined my lifestyle here compared to what I need to put up with in other places.  I would much, MUCH rather have to deal with some political laws that I don't agree with but also don't really impact my day to day life in a major way that much....than live in a place where I simply cannot get away from confrontational people that are very public with you and in-your-face about politics. 

You can't change someone's vote by shouting at them. 

I know a guy who's a right wing conspiracy theorist and is always shouting at everyone. I tell him it's people like you that will turn common sense middle of the road people back into being Trudeau voters... The exact opposite of what he wants.

[...]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Yeah, they are all mostly where they get paid like fast food workers. It's a joke. In NYS, most districts have waiting lists with hundreds of job applicants and no openings.

The lowest paying teacher jobs in the country:

South Dakota ($49,190)
Mississippi ($49,770)
West Virginia ($50,770
North Carolina ($51,570)
Arkansas ($53,080)

https://study.com/academy/popular/teacher-salary-by-state.html

 

The highest paying fast food jobs in the country:

District of Columbia ($39,040)
Washington ($37,300)
California ($36,670)
Massachusetts ($35,490)
New York ($34,930)

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm

[Doohicksie]

5 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Like Wichita Falls, TX where your house gets turned into Lincoln Logs or matchsticks every 5-10 years.

Yeah, no.

Only a handful of homes in Texas are damaged by tornadoes in any given year.  The closest I've ever been to a tornado was when I lived in Detroit and one rolled through in 1997 a few miles from my house. I've lived in Texas 30 years and never had tornado damage to my home.  I had one roof replaced due to hail damage.

[matter2003]

6 minutes ago, ... said:

The lowest paying teacher jobs in the country:

South Dakota ($49,190)
Mississippi ($49,770)
West Virginia ($50,770
North Carolina ($51,570)
Arkansas ($53,080)

https://study.com/academy/popular/teacher-salary-by-state.html

 

The highest paying fast food jobs in the country:

District of Columbia ($39,040)
Washington ($37,300)
California ($36,670)
Massachusetts ($35,490)
New York ($34,930)

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm

Not sure where you got your numbers from but those aren't what they start out at...it's far far lower.

The number on the left is the average starting salary for teachers by state. The middle column is the bottom 10th percentile and the right column is the 90th percentile. So basically when you are making 48K in South Dakota. it would be after working there like 20 years. That's pretty much where you are finishing at. In New York state, that number is almost 100K.

 

So like I said...they start out as fast food workers and not even very good paid ones at that.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, ... said:

It's because of Lake Effect Snow, salt on the roads, high taxes, government for the government (and not the people), and we're viewed as the Rednecks of North. Rochester and Buffalo are equal sh#tholes.

And yet every person I know down here in Texas who travels to WNY marvels at how nice it is, how beautiful it is.

[...]

3 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Not sure where you got your numbers from but those aren't what they start out at...it's far far lower.

I put the sources in my post.

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

they lived in the burbs here and in pre-k were getting services. They moved to texas and get nothing.

My son is a counter argument:  He was speech delayed and on the autistic spectrum and got everything he needed here in Texas at the public schools.  He's now a teacher with a master's degree and working on another degree in data analytics.

Edited June 17 by Doohickie

[...]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

And yet every person I know down here in Texas who travels to WNY marvels at how nice it is, how beautiful it is.

NYS is an exceptionally lovely state in the spring, summer and autumn.

Ever been to the Great Smoky Mountains?

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Detroit is still a pass for me, though it's coming around.

Detroit suburbs are fine.  The city never really recovered from the race riots of the 1960s.

[matter2003]

1 minute ago, ... said:

NYS is an exceptionally lovely state in the spring, summer and autumn.

Ever been to the Great Smoky Mountains?

I was there last year and a Black Bear literally crossed in front of us as we drove up one of the mountain roads! Was very disappointed with the parking situation tho...literally nowhere to park to get out and walk anywhere of interest, the very very limited parking was taken up by people who must have gotten there at like 7am or earlier.  Had to drive up and over and then back down to an area with nothing around it before we found some parking where we could get out and walk around.  They claimed they are putting in more parking but that didn't help us when we were there.  

IMO, great place to drive thru, as long as you don't actually want to get out and do anything...then it sucks ass.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

My son is a counter argument:  He was speech delayed and on the autistic spectrum and got everything he needed here in Texas at the public schools.  He's now a teacher with a master's degree and working on another degree in data analytics.

Sounds like he went to school several years ago when this occurred, be curious if Texas is increasing services or cutting them. That doesn't mean there aren't really good public schools in texas. I also know in NY specific services are mandated.

[matter2003]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Sounds like he went to school several years ago when this occurred, be curious if Texas is increasing services or cutting them. That doesn't mean there aren't really good public schools in texas. I also know in NY specific services are mandated.

Yeah NYS requires special ed teachers, IEP Reports, inclusion classrooms and a wide variety of other things designed to help lower level kids that are virtually unheard of in some of these other states.

Edited June 17 by matter2003

[North Buffalo]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

People forget that taxes do in fact pay for things. The suburbs of Buffalo have some really good schools with a lot of support services that get paid for by property taxes. I know a friend with a child that has a speech issue, they lived in the burbs here and in pre-k were getting services. They moved to texas and get nothing. They are now paying extra for a private speech pathologist, but hey! Their property taxes are lower. 

That said, to each their own. Some ppl value the longer summers and more moderate climate, some like winters, some like the services they get here and some want lower taxes. Live where you want, all places have pros and cons. 

Agreed, if I had to pay for health insurance, meds...  my protected union pension id go broke fast in a slaughterhouse like Texas.  Sorry, Ill take the cold.

[LGR4GM]

I do want to say my friend who moved to Texas is very happy there. Again, all depends on what you do and what your order of operations so to speak is. 

[Goldseatsaud]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Which area?

Western ny

[Goldseatsaud]

1 hour ago, ... said:

The lowest paying teacher jobs in the country:

South Dakota ($49,190)
Mississippi ($49,770)
West Virginia ($50,770
North Carolina ($51,570)
Arkansas ($53,080)

https://study.com/academy/popular/teacher-salary-by-state.html

 

The highest paying fast food jobs in the country:

District of Columbia ($39,040)
Washington ($37,300)
California ($36,670)
Massachusetts ($35,490)
New York ($34,930)

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353023.htm

Great my taxes are 6000 less in the south than WNY. I tired of paying teachers 100k. We split