Jiri Kulich through the lens of JJ Peterka

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

What happens if Kulich and/or Savoie shine in camp and demonstratively outperform other players competing for a roster spot? Do you send them down because you are wedded to an approach that is usually the right way to go. Or do you make a judgment on an individual case that goes against the norm. I was surprised when Benson made the roster last year. As it turned out, he was an asset and not a liability. In general, the patient approach you are advocating for is the right approach to take. But sometimes, a player playing beyond expectations should be judged on performance. It's a delicate balance that calls for a lot of judgment.  In general, I so agree with you that when in doubt take the longer development route. But there are exceptions to every rule. 

IF they demonstrably outperform others and earn spots on the roster, then they play as Sabres.

Whether it is a fail of Adams or not, is entirely a reflection on what competition he brings in for them to outperform.

If he brings in Kane and a true top 3C (say a Cirelli, Ek, or Danault) and a legit gritty 4th liner or 2 and those 2 make the roster, well then the Sabres should be really good (provided the GT doesn't take a step back) because they'll legitimately have 4 legit lines and the D should be improved under Ruff as well.

If he brings in the equivalent of Jost and Robinson to be challenging for top 9 roles, well, yes, it'd be a fail.

In either case, if they are 2 of the top 9 F's, they need to be on the roster.  (Don't necessarily want them in 4th line roles at this point, so if they're say 11, and 12 would likely send them back down even though technically they're better than what else would be in Buffalo.)

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

IF they demonstrably outperform others and earn spots on the roster, then they play as Sabres.

Whether it is a fail of Adams or not, is entirely a reflection on what competition he brings in for them to outperform.

If he brings in Kane and a true top 3C (say a Cirelli, Ek, or Danault) and a legit gritty 4th liner or 2 and those 2 make the roster, well then the Sabres should be really good (provided the GT doesn't take a step back) because they'll legitimately have 4 legit lines and the D should be improved under Ruff as well.

If he brings in the equivalent of Jost and Robinson to be challenging for top 9 roles, well, yes, it'd be a fail.

In either case, if they are 2 of the top 9 F's, they need to be on the roster.  (Don't necessarily want them in 4th line roles at this point, so if they're say 11, and 12 would likely send them back down even though technically they're better than what else would be in Buffalo.)

We are in accord on the issue of rookies earning a spot/s and the necessity of bringing in talent from the outside. The 3C issue is a big question. Is the GM going to be bold or timid in his approach this offseason? As has been discussed before, if the GM adds a 2/3 C player to the roster, there will be a lot of flexibility in how the lines get assembled. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

I don’t think this is how it works in practical terms. In practical terms good teams fill holes with players whose performance is, for the most part, predictable.
 

I disagree with the narrative that Benson busted down the door last year. I think the Sabres left a spot open for the best prospect in camp and then demanded so little from their vets in camp that Benson, a confident, tenacious, talented kid, rose above others. It should never have been an option though. 

Considering the roster assembled entering camp, Benson earned a spot. Whether the GM failed to start off with a more robust roster in camp is another issue. Not only did Benson legitimately earned a spot but he also acquitted himself quite well throughout the season. 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Then Adams failed. 

There should be no spot in the top 9 for Kulich or Savoie barring injury. 

If either player demonstrably outplays the players in camp assembled by the GM, then they should make the roster. If Adams doesn't bring in enough talent, then that is another issue. It's not inconceivable, but less likely, that one of these rookies makes the team even with an infusion of outside talent. 

[LGR4GM]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If either player demonstrably outplays the players in camp assembled by the GM, then they should make the roster. If Adams doesn't bring in enough talent, then that is another issue. It's not inconceivable, but less likely, that one of these rookies makes the team even with an infusion of outside talent. 

That's my point. If Adams fails to bring in enough talent and Savoie and Kulich make the team, then Adams failed. 

Edited June 14 by LGR4GM
spelling

[K-9]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

That's my point. If Adams fails to bring in enough talent and Savoie and Kulich make the team, then Adams failed. 

I agree, but what if Adams brings in enough talent and Savoie and Kulich end up outperforming that new talent, anyway? Imo, both Savoie and Kulich need more seasoning in the A so there’s little chance of that happening, but it would be a nice problem to have. 

[LGR4GM]

46 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I agree, but what if Adams brings in enough talent and Savoie and Kulich end up outperforming that new talent, anyway? Imo, both Savoie and Kulich need more seasoning in the A so there’s little chance of that happening, but it would be a nice problem to have. 

Then he failed. He didn't bring in good enough talent. 

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Then he failed. He didn't bring in good enough talent. 

You’re just being stubborn now 😁

If Kulich puts up 30 goals next year and pushes Jeff Skinner to the press box, Adams did not fail.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Then he failed. He didn't bring in good enough talent. 

Perhaps you’d be underestimating Savoie and Kulich. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

You’re just being stubborn now 😁

If Kulich puts up 30 goals next year and pushes Jeff Skinner to the press box, Adams did not fail.

That just isn't going to happen. He'd never get enough pp time even if they put him on the roster. You add Kulich next year, you're looking at 12-15g if you give him pp time and maybe 12 assists. The Sabres should be able to sign a better middle 6 player. 

47 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Perhaps you’d be underestimating Savoie and Kulich. 

Perhaps I'm realistic about what a 20yr old late 1st round pick producing .7ppg in the AHL with no chance in hell at a top 6 role is capable of as a rookie in the NHL. 

Savoie, he could surprise but that's if he beats out Krebs for a 3rd line spot. Still, we're talking 30ish points. 

[K-9]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Perhaps I'm realistic about what a 20yr old late 1st round pick producing .7ppg in the AHL with no chance in hell at a top 6 role is capable of as a rookie in the NHL. 

Savoie, he could surprise but that's if he beats out Krebs for a 3rd line spot. Still, we're talking 30ish points. 

Perhaps you missed the part of my initial post where I said there would be little chance of either Savoie or Kulich making the team as I believe both need more AHL seasoning. The point is that if they should happen to play well enough to beat whomever Adams brings in, then perhaps we’d all have underestimated them.

Pick any two players that you’d like to see brought in, any two. If by some miracle Savoie and Kulich beat them out (and, again, I highly doubt they would) then I don’t think we could say Adams didn’t do well enough so much as Savoie and Kulich did far, far better than expected. Hence we will have underestimated them. 

[LGR4GM]

10 hours ago, K-9 said:

Pick any two players that you’d like to see brought in, any two. If by some miracle Savoie and Kulich beat them out (and, again, I highly doubt they would) then I don’t think we could say Adams didn’t do well enough so much as Savoie and Kulich did far, far better than expected. Hence we will have underestimated them. 

Okay. Joel Ek and Sam Bennett. 

[Archie Lee]

21 hours ago, Taro T said:

IF they demonstrably outperform others and earn spots on the roster, then they play as Sabres.

Whether it is a fail of Adams or not, is entirely a reflection on what competition he brings in for them to outperform.

If he brings in Kane and a true top 3C (say a Cirelli, Ek, or Danault) and a legit gritty 4th liner or 2 and those 2 make the roster, well then the Sabres should be really good (provided the GT doesn't take a step back) because they'll legitimately have 4 legit lines and the D should be improved under Ruff as well.

If he brings in the equivalent of Jost and Robinson to be challenging for top 9 roles, well, yes, it'd be a fail.

In either case, if they are 2 of the top 9 F's, they need to be on the roster.  (Don't necessarily want them in 4th line roles at this point, so if they're say 11, and 12 would likely send them back down even though technically they're better than what else would be in Buffalo.)

This isn't how it works though.  If Adams has the sort of off-season you reference, our forwards look something like this (assuming no Skinner buyout and that Krebs is part of the trade for the 3C).

• Skinner/Thompson/Tuch
• Peterka/Cozens/Kane
• Benson/Cirelli/Quinn
• Greenway/Gritty/Gritty

Barring injury, there is no space for Kulich or Savoie.  As you say they aren't suited for the 4th line.  The only player in the top 9 who I could even remotely imagine them benching to start the season, for reasons other than health, would be Skinner.  While it could happen, it is not likely to happen, even if Kulich and Savoie look better in camp/pre-season. They aren't going to sign Kane and give up a boatload for Cirelli and then get to the end of pre-season and put those two in the press-box because Savoie and Kulich looked better in camp. Apply the same idea to Tuch/Thompson or Peterka/Cozens.  It's not going to happen. I'm not trying to be a wanker here.  The reason Benson made the team last year is because they left a spot open for a prospect to make the top 9.  The only way Kulich or Savoie make the team out of camp this year is if they leave a spot open (ie: no Kane in this scenario) or if there is an injury.

 

 

[Archie Lee]

12 hours ago, K-9 said:

Perhaps you missed the part of my initial post where I said there would be little chance of either Savoie or Kulich making the team as I believe both need more AHL seasoning. The point is that if they should happen to play well enough to beat whomever Adams brings in, then perhaps we’d all have underestimated them.

Pick any two players that you’d like to see brought in, any two. If by some miracle Savoie and Kulich beat them out (and, again, I highly doubt they would) then I don’t think we could say Adams didn’t do well enough so much as Savoie and Kulich did far, far better than expected. Hence we will have underestimated them. 

There is zero chance that Adams brings in two established top-9 players through trade/free agency and then gets to the end of camp and puts them in the press-box because Savoie and Kulich looked better in a couple of pre-season games against Columbus. 

[K-9]

43 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

There is zero chance that Adams brings in two established top-9 players through trade/free agency and then gets to the end of camp and puts them in the press-box because Savoie and Kulich looked better in a couple of pre-season games against Columbus. 

Yes, and if you’d read my posts in this thread you’d realize that I agree that Savoie and Kulich have little to no chance at all of cracking the lineup as I’ve always maintained that they both need more seasoning in the A. My only point has been that IF they should outplay whomever Adams brings in (again, little chance that happens) then we will have underestimated them. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Okay. Joel Ek and Sam Bennett. 

I’d love to see them come here. But if by some miracle Savoie and Kulich demonstrably outplay Ek and Bennett, is that KA not doing good enough or us having underestimated them?

[DarthEbriate]

The Wild are not trading Eriksson Ek. They're only in cap hell for one more season; his contract is perfect for a 2C who can float to 1C like he's done the past two years for them and it's got plenty of term through his prime for when their next wave of kids is ready. He also has a M-NTC/NMC.

The contracts they would look to shed first would be Fleury, Hartman, and Foligno.

[Archie Lee]

20 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Yes, and if you’d read my posts in this thread you’d realize that I agree that Savoie and Kulich have little to no chance at all of cracking the lineup as I’ve always maintained that they both need more seasoning in the A. My only point has been that IF they should outplay whomever Adams brings in (again, little chance that happens) then we will have underestimated them. 

I appreciate what you are saying.  But it is not the case that there is little to no chance that Kulich or Savoie will beat out a veteran, established, important player (Tuch, Cirelli, Kane, Cozens) who the Sabres paid a high-price to obtain and/or pay a big salary to. There is no chance.  It only happens if something unexpected goes wrong, like an injury or a veteran showing up terribly out of shape. 

Kulich being better in training camp than Patrick Kane as example (who would be one of the biggest offseason signings in Sabre history) is not going to get Kulich the start in game one over Kane.

(queue Allen Iverson:  "Training Camp?  We're talking Training Camp?").

 

 

 

Edited June 15 by Archie Lee

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I’d love to see them come here. But if by some miracle Savoie and Kulich demonstrably outplay Ek and Bennett, is that KA not doing good enough or us having underestimated them?

What if Benson comes to training camp and can skate like McDavid and grew 2"? 

I understand your point. I'm trying to be realistic. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I’d love to see them come here. But if by some miracle Savoie and Kulich demonstrably outplay Ek and Bennett, is that KA not doing good enough or us having underestimated them?

If that were to happen than KA did real good and deserves lots of praise for his patience and development plan. 

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

This isn't how it works though.  If Adams has the sort of off-season you reference, our forwards look something like this (assuming no Skinner buyout and that Krebs is part of the trade for the 3C).

• Skinner/Thompson/Tuch
• Peterka/Cozens/Kane
• Benson/Cirelli/Quinn
• Greenway/Gritty/Gritty

Barring injury, there is no space for Kulich or Savoie.  As you say they aren't suited for the 4th line.  The only player in the top 9 who I could even remotely imagine them benching to start the season, for reasons other than health, would be Skinner.  While it could happen, it is not likely to happen, even if Kulich and Savoie look better in camp/pre-season. They aren't going to sign Kane and give up a boatload for Cirelli and then get to the end of pre-season and put those two in the press-box because Savoie and Kulich looked better in camp. Apply the same idea to Tuch/Thompson or Peterka/Cozens.  It's not going to happen. I'm not trying to be a wanker here.  The reason Benson made the team last year is because they left a spot open for a prospect to make the top 9.  The only way Kulich or Savoie make the team out of camp this year is if they leave a spot open (ie: no Kane in this scenario) or if there is an injury.

 

 

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that, should say Kane and Cirelli (or other vets of similar stature) get brought in that Kulich and Savoie will outperform them out of the gate.  NOBODY is disputing that.  Where the divergence of opinion comes in is that some of us believe that SHOULD it happen, it would be a very good thing; but others see that outcome as a "fail.'  

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Wild are not trading Eriksson Ek. They're only in cap hell for one more season; his contract is perfect for a 2C who can float to 1C like he's done the past two years for them and it's got plenty of term through his prime for when their next wave of kids is ready. He also has a M-NTC/NMC.

The contracts they would look to shed first would be Fleury, Hartman, and Foligno.

Which is why my trade suggestion was for Eriksson Ek AND Foligno together. That changes the conversation from their perspective, and we could still get value (and leadership) from Foligno even though there is declining value in terms of his contract. 

People talking about what if Kulich outplays Kane etc. is a non issue and I fail to see the problem. If it were to happen, GREAT. Now we can trade somebody for another player we need. Trade 2 guys for 1 even. Sit Skinner in the press box. More options. Ruff has greater freedom to sit guys who don't perform. There is absolutely ZERO problem with having more good hockey players than you need. ZERO. You guys have just forgotten what it's like to be a real hockey team with actual depth. 

Edited June 15 by PerreaultForever

[K-9]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What if Benson comes to training camp and can skate like McDavid and grew 2"? 

I understand your point. I'm trying to be realistic. 

I thought it was understood that my entire premise was based entirely on an unrealistic outcome in the first place; strictly a theoretical exercise. 

[RochesterExpat]

On 6/13/2024 at 2:03 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I've been saying 3 but 4 would be even better. Totally agree. Jobs need to be earned. No more developing kids in the NHL and just handing them spots or even reserving spaces.

I’ve been saying 3 because I am hoping we have Rousek as the 14th forward this season to start and I am absolutely fine with that. If we bring in 4 and that moves Krebs to that 14th/rotational spot, that’s even better. I am also assuming Skinner returns next season. It’s basically three or bust for me. Four is a bonus. But I don’t except more than two additions.

The sad truth is this is how I expect our lineup to be for opening night:

——

JJP - Thompson - Tuch

Benson - Cozens - Quinn

Skinner - Krebs - [Underwhelming Add]

Greenway - Girgensons - [“veteran” on basically league minimum we all forget the name of in 3 years]

Rousek

——

Dahlin - Power

Sammy - Byram

Clifton - Joki

Bryson, Clague

——

This team has turned me into a real pessimist. Not sure I’ve ever hoped to be more wrong about anything with sports before.

[Flashsabre]

17 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

I’ve been saying 3 because I am hoping we have Rousek as the 14th forward this season to start and I am absolutely fine with that. If we bring in 4 and that moves Krebs to that 14th/rotational spot, that’s even better. I am also assuming Skinner returns next season. It’s basically three or bust for me. Four is a bonus. But I don’t except more than two additions.

The sad truth is this is how I expect our lineup to be for opening night:

——

JJP - Thompson - Tuch

Benson - Cozens - Quinn

Skinner - Krebs - [Underwhelming Add]

Greenway - Girgensons - [“veteran” on basically league minimum we all forget the name of in 3 years]

Rousek

——

Dahlin - Power

Sammy - Byram

Clifton - Joki

Bryson, Clague

——

This team has turned me into a real pessimist. Not sure I’ve ever hoped to be more wrong about anything with sports before.

Lindy won’t allow it and Adams knows his career is on the line here.