Build Your All Time Sabres Team

[Scottysabres]

Martin - Perreault - Robert

Andreychuk - LaFontaine - Mogilny

Hawerchuk - Gare - Briere

O'Reilly - Hecht - Peca

13th: Gilmour

Zhitnik - Dahlin

Scheoenfeld - Ramsey

Korab - McKee

7th: Tallinder

Hasek 

Miller

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Slovakia (needed for scorers), and Czechia (not yet represented).

 

Here's what I came up with a more standard approach:

Martin - Perrault - Robert
Andreychuk - LaFontaine - Gare
Ramsay - Peca - Hawerchuk
Vanek - Eichel - Briere     

(Foligno, Mogilny)

Ramsey - Dahlin
Schoenfeld - Housley
Korab - Zhitnik 

(Hajt, McKee)

Hasek
Miller
(Crozier)

Lots of folks won't like my 4th line, but they'll win puck battles and imagine a breakout from their own zone. (Besides, they're only playing 10 minutes a night, so they're all angry.)

Nice job.  I would move Foligno into a top 4 line, and certainly would move him ahead of Eichel based on his time and his output with the Sabres. 

Foligno has more goals, more points, more seasons, and was a better captain and a better Sabre.   He fought for what was on the crest.  

Next, I would move either Pominville or Don Luce (others might say Satan) ahead of Eichel.  Again citing more seasons, more goals, more points, and they were just better Sabres.  

Base on pure talent you could argue a slot a Eichel.  Looking at his production as a Sabre he falls short,  and everything else about about him  - no way.  

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Seeing Eichel pop up on a few lists makes me wonder how history will compare him and Tage Thompson as Sabres.

Eichel had 5 good years to Thompson’s 3 and has a significant lead in career points, but Thompson certainly has time to make up the gap and his recent years stack up pretty well

Lots of folks forget that Skinner got cold down the stretch and Eichel played hurt and has no points the final 10 games of that COVID season. History and the franchise are on a different trajectory if they make that 24-team field (especially if they do what Montreal did and knock off a beaten-up Penguins team). Remember, Ullmark was back to close that season and it was a different team with him in the net.

As to Eichel/Thompson, Eichel has the benefit of his burst and playmaking that Tage simply doesn’t have. And TNT has the benefit of playing with Granato’s open attack (one season) and a career-coming-out-season from Tuch that Eichel never had.

There’s an alternate universe where Skinner-Eichel-Reinhart play under Granato. Probably not as good as Tuch. But it creates a world where Eichel and Reinhart remain in the top six entering their primes (probably on separate lines). TNT with Reino on the 2nd line with Reino in the crease on the PP and we have a “veteran” team last season.

 

[DarthEbriate]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Nice job.  I would move Foligno into a top 4 line, and certainly would move him ahead of Eichel based on his time and his output with the Sabres. 

Foligno has more goals, more points, more seasons, and was a better captain and a better Sabre.   He fought for what was on the crest.  

Next, I would move either Pominville or Don Luce (others might say Satan) ahead of Eichel.  Again citing more seasons, more goals, more points, and they were just better Sabres.  

Base on pure talent you could argue a slot a Eichel.  Looking at his production as a Sabre he falls short,  and everything else about about him  - no way.  

Yeah, Elder Foligno was before my time and I have an admittedly hard time placing him. On a “franchise” team he’s a bottom 6 grinder, though, so if we need more grit I dress him. If we lose some silk in the top 6, I dress Mogilny. 

Pommer is a great complementary piece. He’s a 2W through and through and he makes his line better. But again, on a franchise team I’ve got 1st-liners across their eras. (Or at least 1st line minutes [Peca]).

My argument for Eichel is that final season. We rag him and I call him Jackikin Eichwalker and such, but he that year he *was* the offense. Dragging Krueger and that lineup into the playoff picture and putting himself into the Hart conversation. Plus, on my theoretical franchise team he’s a prove-it 4th line kid, and not a captain. 

[Ogelthorpe]

Martin Pereault Robert

Briere Patty Mogilny

Ramsay Peca Gare

Dave Drury Foligno

extra: Hawerchuk

           May

Ramsey  Schoenfeld 

McKee   Dahlin

Housley   Soupy

extra: Numinnen

Hayek

Miller

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

Martin - Perreault - Robert

Andreychuk - LaFontaine - Mogilny

Hawerchuk - Gare - Briere

O'Reilly - Hecht - Peca

13th: Gilmour

Zhitnik - Dahlin

Scheoenfeld - Ramsey

Korab - McKee

7th: Tallinder

Hasek 

Miller

Korab was not that good. If you just wanted a fighter, Playfair was better. A better d-man would have been Hajt. Even Punch didn’t think much of Korab defensely. His plan was to play him at wing once he brought Tommy Abrahamson (sic) over from Sweden. 

[Scottysabres]

12 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Korab was not that good. If you just wanted a fighter, Playfair was better. A better d-man would have been Hajt. Even Punch didn’t think much of Korab defensely. His plan was to play him at wing once he brought Tommy Abrahamson (sic) over from Sweden. 

He skated with me, taught some things when I was 5, 6, 7 yrs old at Sabreland. I liked the way he played.

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

He skated with me, taught some things when I was 5, 6, 7 yrs old at Sabreland. I liked the way he played.

Ok. Just my opinion. I’m sure it’s a great memory for you.

[Pimlach]

18 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yeah, Elder Foligno was before my time and I have an admittedly hard time placing him. On a “franchise” team he’s a bottom 6 grinder, though, so if we need more grit I dress him. If we lose some silk in the top 6, I dress Mogilny. 

Pommer is a great complementary piece. He’s a 2W through and through and he makes his line better. But again, on a franchise team I’ve got 1st-liners across their eras. (Or at least 1st line minutes [Peca]).

My argument for Eichel is that final season. We rag him and I call him Jackikin Eichwalker and such, but he that year he *was* the offense. Dragging Krueger and that lineup into the playoff picture and putting himself into the Hart conversation. Plus, on my theoretical franchise team he’s a prove-it 4th line kid, and not a captain. 

Mike Foligno was a top 6 player for Buffalo.  Seventh all time in points, while second all time in penalty minutes. Most if those penalties are majors for fighting.   He seemed to enjoy it.  
 

Fun fact - Foligno is third all time in game winning goals.  

[Pimlach]

17 hours ago, tom webster said:

Korab was not that good. If you just wanted a fighter, Playfair was better. A better d-man would have been Hajt. Even Punch didn’t think much of Korab defensely. His plan was to play him at wing once he brought Tommy Abrahamson (sic) over from Sweden. 

Korab played both wing and defense with Chicago, before he came to Buffalo.  He was a good defenseman with a good offensive game too, and he also played point on the PP.  

Thommy Abrahamsson?   what a memory!  He was signed from the Swedish league but was never a Sabre.   

Played in the WHA, had one partial season in the NHL.  I just looked at his stats.  He is the opposite of a Korab.   15 PIM in his entire professional career.   He would have been very soft to play against in that era, and Imlach did not like soft.  

[French Collection]

20 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Played in the WHA, had one partial season in the NHL.  I just looked at his stats.  He is the opposite of a Korab.   15 PIM in his entire professional career.   He would have been very soft to play against in that era, and Imlach did not like soft.  

Kind of like what Harold Ballard said about Inge Hammarstrom, he can go into the corners with a dozen eggs and come out with all of them intact.

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Korab played both wing and defense with Chicago, before he came to Buffalo.  He was a good defenseman with a good offensive game too, and he also played point on the PP.  

Thommy Abrahamsson?   what a memory!  He was signed from the Swedish league but was never a Sabre.   

Played in the WHA, had one partial season in the NHL.  I just looked at his stats.  He is the opposite of a Korab.   15 PIM in his entire professional career.   He would have been very soft to play against in that era, and Imlach did not like soft.  

Imlach thought that Abrahammson would be better than Salming. If I remember correctly, the sticking point was Abrahammson wanted his brother, a goalie, included in the deal.

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Korab played both wing and defense with Chicago, before he came to Buffalo.  He was a good defenseman with a good offensive game too, and he also played point on the PP.  

Thommy Abrahamsson?   what a memory!  He was signed from the Swedish league but was never a Sabre.   

Played in the WHA, had one partial season in the NHL.  I just looked at his stats.  He is the opposite of a Korab.   15 PIM in his entire professional career.   He would have been very soft to play against in that era, and Imlach did not like soft.  

By the way, while Punch valued toughness, he also valued skill. He traded grit for the likes of Rene Robert, Jacques Richard and the like and he let Dudley walk because he thought he could replace him with Norm Gratton.

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, tom webster said:

Imlach thought that Abrahammson would be better than Salming. If I remember correctly, the sticking point was Abrahammson wanted his brother, a goalie, included in the deal.

Thanks for that info.  I never knew that he was that high regarded by anybody.  

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

By the way, while Punch valued toughness, he also valued skill. He traded grit for the likes of Rene Robert, Jacques Richard and the like and he let Dudley walk because he thought he could replace him with Norm Gratton.

True on the Robert trade, but he also knew Robert had not hit prime yet, and Robert had more promise than  Shack.   He could find another Schack. 

Jacque Richard was a no risk rehab project.  The guy had big talent, but he did not handle life in the NHL.  

I don't believe that he ever thought he could replace Dudley with Gratton? 

He got Gratton for Butch Deadmarsh in late 73.   Gratton was a former FOA draft pick, he was worth a look, and Deadmarsh was not much.  He traded Gratton, who was  mediocre for the veteran Freddie Stanfield by Jan 1975.  Stanfield had won before.  

Stanfield improved the top 9 spot held by Gratton, and scored 12 goals in only 32 games for the Sabres that season, which helped them immensely to get to the Stanley Cup Final series.  He was wehat we call a veteran rental in today's word.  But another smart acquisition. 

Dudley was still on that 74-75 team. Gratton was replaced by Stanfield, but Dudley was still there. 

Punch let Dudley go after that season because he would not pay him what the WHA was offering.  All the NHL GMs let good players go, they stuck together to keep salaries down.  They players all came back if they were still good enough, which is what everybody figured.  

Yes, Dudley was hard to replace, he never really did.  Even when he came back, he was not quite the same player.  

 

 

 

[tom webster]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Thanks for that info.  I never knew that he was that high regarded by anybody.  

True on the Robert trade, but he also knew Robert had not hit prime yet, and Robert had more promise than  Shack.   He could find another Schack. 

Jacque Richard was a no risk rehab project.  The guy had big talent, but he did not handle life in the NHL.  

I don't believe that he ever thought he could replace Dudley with Gratton? 

He got Gratton for Butch Deadmarsh in late 73.   Gratton was a former FOA draft pick, he was worth a look, and Deadmarsh was not much.  He traded Gratton, who was  mediocre for the veteran Freddie Stanfield by Jan 1975.  Stanfield had won before.  

Stanfield improved the top 9 spot held by Gratton, and scored 12 goals in only 32 games for the Sabres that season, which helped them immensely to get to the Stanley Cup Final series.  He was wehat we call a veteran rental in today's word.  But another smart acquisition. 

Dudley was still on that 74-75 team. Gratton was replaced by Stanfield, but Dudley was still there. 

Punch let Dudley go after that season because he would not pay him what the WHA was offering.  All the NHL GMs let good players go, they stuck together to keep salaries down.  They players all came back if they were still good enough, which is what everybody figured.  

Yes, Dudley was hard to replace, he never really did.  Even when he came back, he was not quite the same player.  

 

 

 

I may be confusing Gratton with someone else but while the other points you made are valid, they don’t change the fact that Punch valued talent as much, if not more then grit. 

[Pimlach]

22 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I may be confusing Gratton with someone else but while the other points you made are valid, they don’t change the fact that Punch valued talent as much, if not more then grit. 

I agree. You always need top end talent.  

[Goldseatsaud]

Korab and jimmy big bruisers

[msw2112]

On 5/30/2024 at 7:35 PM, Taro T said:

Andreychuk - LaFontaine - Mogilny

Martin - Perreault - Drury

Hawerchuk - O'Reilly - Gilmour

Ramsay - Peca - Gare

 

Zhitnik - Dahlin

Scheoenfeld - Ramsey

Tallinder - McKee

 

Hasek 

Miller

 

Not entirely set on Mogilny (if it's the 76 goal version, he's a no brainer; if he's his usual self, would likely go a different route).  Same with Tallinder - the Tallinder that played in the '06 playoffs was an absolute stud.  Gilmour was getting long in tooth by the time he was a Sabre, but would absolutely love to watch him work with O'Reilly and Ducks.

If we can get guys in their prime vs what they were in Buffalo would make a few other substitutions as well.

In no particular order also considered Vaive, Vanek, Briere, Luce, Robert, McNab, Lorentz, Eichel, Reinhart, Connolly, Spencer, Gillies, Simpson, Grier, Dumont, and Dudley at F.  Also considered Hajt, Guevremont, Montour, Campbell, Ledyard, Power, Huddy, Horton, Myers, and Robitaille at D.

Goalies getting consideration included Crozier; Edwards; Fuhr; Biron; and Levi.  😉 

Suppose Turgeon and Sheppard deserve consideration too.  But neither will make it.

Crazy to think that PIerre Turgeon is in the NHL Hall of Fame!

[Taro T]

34 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

Crazy to think that PIerre Turgeon is in the NHL Hall of Fame!

Apparently with the bar lowered enough to get Housley in, Pete managed to eventually Sneak in himself.

(Honestly had no idea that he'd been elected this past season; or at minimum completely put it out of mind.)

[ska-T Chitown]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:06 PM, Taro T said:

Apparently with the bar lowered enough to get Housley in, Pete managed to eventually Sneak in himself.

(Honestly had no idea that he'd been elected this past season; or at minimum completely put it out of mind.)

I remember it because I am salty that Alex is not in there. I know, I know - Alex has no one to blame but himself ... but watching that magical 76 goal season as a wee lad - no one will EVER convince me Alex is not one of the most talented and HOF deserving players ever. Objectivity and facts have no place here with me 🙂

I mean, shiznit, he deserves consideration just for being the start of the Russian floodgates opening!

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, ska-T Chitown said:

I remember it because I am salty that Alex is not in there. I know, I know - Alex has no one to blame but himself ... but watching that magical 76 goal season as a wee lad - no one will EVER convince me Alex is not one of the most talented and HOF deserving players ever. Objectivity and facts have no place here with me 🙂

I mean, shiznit, he deserves consideration just for being the start of the Russian floodgates opening!

Mogilny ended up the last of the major defectors before the Soviets decided they couldn't keep holding all their hockey players in country.  Can see the case for him being in.  Expect he eventually will get there.

[ska-T Chitown]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Mogilny ended up the last of the major defectors before the Soviets decided they couldn't keep holding all their hockey players in country.  Can see the case for him being in.  Expect he eventually will get there.

https://adjustedhockey.com/top-200-forwards/

This hockey site is amazing. The amount of stat-nerd, excel-based nerdery here makes me weak in the knees. Adjusted across eras, Alex is the 52nd best forward of all time, ahead of numerous folks already in the HOF. 

Justice. For. Mogilny.