3C - What is best course going forward?

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

All I know is that I’ll be very disappointed if the 3C is in-hose even though I believe that it will indeed be in-house.

I was dismayed when Zach Benson made the team.  I was wrong.

I'm just saying that while it makes sense to look outside for 3/4C help, we might be sitting on someone that is ready to pop into the league with the same success Benson had last year.

No matter what Kevyn does, I will withhold judgment until I see how it plays out.  There may be a different dynamic with Lindy as HC.  If he does have an influence on the roster I will tend to trust Kevyn's moves going forward.  Kevyn has his own way of doing things and as much as he says he seeks inputs from those around him, I think having a senior hockey guy like Lindy to vet Kevyn's moves can only help.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

I was dismayed when Zach Benson made the team.  I was wrong.

I'm just saying that while it makes sense to look outside for 3/4C help, we might be sitting on someone that is ready to pop into the league with the same success Benson had last year.

No matter what Kevyn does, I will withhold judgment until I see how it plays out.  There may be a different dynamic with Lindy as HC.  If he does have an influence on the roster I will tend to trust Kevyn's moves going forward.  Kevyn has his own way of doing things and as much as he says he seeks inputs from those around him, I think having a senior hockey guy like Lindy to vet Kevyn's moves can only help.

Benson is an outlier, we shouldn't compare or expect others to emulate him. He shouldn't have been drafted 13th overall but more like 4th.

I think the only player that could fit that seconded bolded is Savoie. Rosen might be able to handle the 3rd line now I suppose. That said, Adams hoping and wishing on his lucky penny that some 20/21yr old prospect without NHL games shows up and is serviceable is the exact attitude that failed him last year. He should be addressing roster holes by adding bonafide NHL talent, not hoping some kid might if he wishes hard enough be useful. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I was dismayed when Zach Benson made the team.  I was wrong.

I'm just saying that while it makes sense to look outside for 3/4C help, we might be sitting on someone that is ready to pop into the league with the same success Benson had last year.

No matter what Kevyn does, I will withhold judgment until I see how it plays out.  There may be a different dynamic with Lindy as HC.  If he does have an influence on the roster I will tend to trust Kevyn's moves going forward.  Kevyn has his own way of doing things and as much as he says he seeks inputs from those around him, I think having a senior hockey guy like Lindy to vet Kevyn's moves can only help.

IF one of the kids is ready to step up and take the 3C role, cool.  The plan should be based on assuming that WON'T happen.  Having 1 or 2 too many top 9 F's is a good problem to have and is totally out of character for this organization the past dozen or so years.  Should that happen, they'd be able to role 4 legit lines like they could coming out of the lockout.  Again, that'd be a good problem to have.

They should figure out a way to make what Adams has talked about a reality: bringing in a middle 6 W, bringing in a bottom 6 C, and giving the 4th line an identity.  Ideally those would be Kane, Cirelli, and a couple of hard to play against vets like Jeannot and ???.  Will let Adams figure out how to make the $'s work.

Not expecting any new additions at D or G, wouldn't mind seeing change there but am taking Adams at his word when he says they like where they're at there.

[xzy89c1]

On 5/29/2024 at 11:17 AM, Doohickie said:

I love the internal inconsistency in your post:  "Thompson needs to go to wing" but "Mitts trade is one of the few no doubt great moves", like trading a center and moving another center to wing is going to improve anything. 

You're funny.

Or trolling.  Probably trolling.

lol, both can be true. Byrum is a far better player than mitts. Especially in todays NHL. Thompson is not a good center. We need real centers not what we have today.

Thinking can be hard. I have faith in you!!!!

 

On 5/29/2024 at 8:50 AM, Pimlach said:

I would have fired him by now, but I also would not have had him operate with such heavy restrictions either. 

I think the Covid restrictions cost us Reinhart, Montour and Ullmark.  I think Risto needed to go, and Eichel wanted out with his injury the key to accommodate that.  

Pegula's goal is to sell the team. he wants out. All his behavior backs that up. Reinart did not want to be here and was a piss poor teammate. Montour was a much better player than he showed here due to Ralph's system of not letting dman join or lead the rush. Ullmark is average goalie. He was on great teams. He is not number one on Boston and the fact he was replaced in playoffs series bears that out. 

 

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Byrum is a far better player than mitts.

 

No he's not.  

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

One of the reasons I'm interested in guys like Roslovic and Monahan is their position flexibility. They can fill a need at 3C or wing and can both play up in case of injury.  This would give Adams the flexability to allow the kids to make a run at 3C or 3W without hindering the roster is they don't earn a job. 

 

2 minutes ago, xzy89c1 said:

Byrum is a far better player than mitts.

No he's not.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

What would a Bennett trade look like?

Zadorov, a 4/5 D, was traded early last season to Van for a 3rd & a 5th with most of one year remaining on his deal at 3.75

Conner Brown was traded for a 2nd to Washington after 3 consecutive 35 to 43 pt seasons with one year remaining on his deal at 3.6 Mill.

 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What would a Bennett trade look like?

Zadorov, a 4/5 D, was traded early last season to Van for a 3rd & a 5th with most of one year remaining on his deal at 3.75

Conner Brown was traded for a 2nd to Washington after 3 consecutive 35 to 43 pt seasons with one year remaining on his deal at 3.6 Mill.

 

Joker and a 3rd maybe?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, xzy89c1 said:

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

Dominate D man?  LOL.  Maybe you didn't watch him last season for either the Sabres or Avs.  For an offense oriented D, his best season so far is 29 pts. He has averaged under 20 minutes a night for his career so far.  These numbers put him in as a 3/4 on a decent to good NHL team.  Dahlin is a dominate D.  Makar is a  dominate D, Fox, etc....  He's not even in Montour's class.  Try again.

So is a top 4 D, better than a middle 6 center who plays a 200 foot game?  Colorado is trying re-sign Mitts as we speak to be their 2C next season.  Sorry, but the facts don't support your contention that Byram is better than Mitts.  He is younger and has a better draft pedigree, but he isn't there yet and may never be.

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Joker and a 3rd maybe?

I think I'd be comfortable with that.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, xzy89c1 said:

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

At ABSOLUTE most it would be 31 GMs that would pick Byram over Mittelstadt.  😉 

Edited May 30 by Taro T

[Doohicksie]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Joker and a 3rd maybe?

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, xzy89c1 said:

lol, both can be true. Byrum is a far better player than mitts. Especially in todays NHL. Thompson is not a good center. We need real centers not what we have today.

Thinking can be hard. I have faith in you!!!!

1 hour ago, xzy89c1 said:

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

Both of these are obnoxious.

Do not communicate like this here.

 

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What would a Bennett trade look like?

Zadorov, a 4/5 D, was traded early last season to Van for a 3rd & a 5th with most of one year remaining on his deal at 3.75

Conner Brown was traded for a 2nd to Washington after 3 consecutive 35 to 43 pt seasons with one year remaining on his deal at 3.6 Mill.

 

I don't think Florida will trade Bennett -- he's a core piece for them.  But if they did, the price would be much, much higher than this -- i.e. one of the Sabres' top forward prospects plus a decent player.  Something like Kulich plus Joki or Östlund plus Ryan Johnson.

 

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Dominate D man?  LOL.  Maybe you didn't watch him last season for either the Sabres or Avs.  For an offense oriented D, his best season so far is 29 pts. He has averaged under 20 minutes a night for his career so far.  These numbers put him in as a 3/4 on a decent to good NHL team.  Dahlin is a dominate D.  Makar is a  dominate D, Fox, etc....  He's not even in Montour's class.  Try again.

So is a top 4 D, better than a middle 6 center who plays a 200 foot game?  Colorado is trying re-sign Mitts as we speak to be their 2C next season.  Sorry, but the facts don't support your contention that Byram is better than Mitts.  He is younger and has a better draft pedigree, but he isn't there yet and may never be.

Your broader point -- that Byram isn't a dominant defenseman -- is fair, but the bolded is #hammymath.  It's true but misleading.  In his first 2 seasons -- i.e. his age 19 and 20 seasons -- he played a total of 49 games and averaged under 20 min per game.  In his next 2 seasons, he was at 21:53 and 20:24 per game.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, xzy89c1 said:

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

Can you at least spell his freaking name correctly? It's 5 letters for sake. Byram. 

[Doohicksie]

30 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Both of these are obnoxious.

Intentionally so.  I think the guy's just trolling for reactions.

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I was dismayed when Zach Benson made the team.  I was wrong.

I'm just saying that while it makes sense to look outside for 3/4C help, we might be sitting on someone that is ready to pop into the league with the same success Benson had last year.

No matter what Kevyn does, I will withhold judgment until I see how it plays out.  There may be a different dynamic with Lindy as HC.  If he does have an influence on the roster I will tend to trust Kevyn's moves going forward.  Kevyn has his own way of doing things and as much as he says he seeks inputs from those around him, I think having a senior hockey guy like Lindy to vet Kevyn's moves can only help.

You weren’t really wrong about Benson. Benson being the best option can be true and also a really sad commentary on the state of the roster 

Adding a Benson level player as our biggest F addition this summer wouldn’t be positive 

2 hours ago, xzy89c1 said:

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

He has great potential but he’s not “very good” right now. He also doesn’t have a U in his name. So, 0/2

your pro analysis seems swapped, here, Mittelstadt is the guy who’s currently “very good”, bonafide top 6, Byram is the one performing at a depth level 

Edited May 30 by Thorny

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Adding a Benson level player as our biggest F addition this summer wouldn’t be positive 

It would be fine if the rest of the Spring 2023 "All Stars" returned to form.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

It would be fine if the rest of the Spring 2023 "All Stars" returned to form.

And doing nothing all summer except trading Tage for a 4th would be fine if Levi ends up playing like Hellebuyck next season and Cozens pots 100 points.

From the perspective of the moment an offseason yielding a 30 point player at best as the crown jewel would be negligent 

[French Collection]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I was dismayed when Zach Benson made the team.  I was wrong.

I'm just saying that while it makes sense to look outside for 3/4C help, we might be sitting on someone that is ready to pop into the league with the same success Benson had last year.

No matter what Kevyn does, I will withhold judgment until I see how it plays out.  There may be a different dynamic with Lindy as HC.  If he does have an influence on the roster I will tend to trust Kevyn's moves going forward.  Kevyn has his own way of doing things and as much as he says he seeks inputs from those around him, I think having a senior hockey guy like Lindy to vet Kevyn's moves can only help.

KA will be less inclined to bring in a guy because he played at USNDTP.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So is a top 4 D, better than a middle 6 center who plays a 200 foot game?  Colorado is trying re-sign Mitts as we speak to be their 2C next season. 

I think in general terms, the argument over Mitts vs. Byram might end when we see the number he signs for. 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think in general terms, the argument over Mitts vs. Byram might end when we see the number he signs for. 

If you think it was purely contract-driven maybe.

For me, it will be moot if the Sabres make the playoffs next year with Byram contributing as a top 4 D

For Sabrespace it will end 3 or 4 years after we stop talking about the ROR trade.

[LabattBlue]

13 hours ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

All I know is that I’ll be very disappointed if the 3C is in-hose even though I believe that it will indeed be in-house. IMHO, we need two new centers, both a 3C and 4C. Both good at face-offs. Both veteran leaders with hutzpah. Both not slow. Of course, the 3C has to have more skill than the 4C but both should be able to score and make plays.

IMHO, we also need two 4th line wingers. Similar to Girgs but with way more toughness/gritiness. Players that won’t hesitate to right a wrong. Players that are demons on the forecheck and backcheck. Players who will instill toughness into other players….

I think we desperately need all four of these guys. So much so that I think it would be great to acquire a third new winger to be ready to spell the starters…. I cannot emphasize enough how badly we need players like this….

I also think this is what needs to happen, and I would be shocked if it did.  

[PerreaultForever]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If you think it was purely contract-driven maybe.

For me, it will be moot if the Sabres make the playoffs next year with Byram contributing as a top 4 D

For Sabrespace it will end 3 or 4 years after we stop talking about the ROR trade.

No, what I'm saying is the contract number might help end the argument over whether it's a good deal or not. Obviously if one plays great and one doesn't that'll be a clear decision on who "won the trade" but I think, right now, if Mitts signs for a smaller number than people are thinking then the question of 3C is greater. The only necessity for trading Mitts was IF he wanted Cozens/Tage money and hence Adams avoided that debacle. 

[Thorner]

“Winning” trades is the province of teams less concerned with winning games 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

No, what I'm saying is the contract number might help end the argument over whether it's a good deal or not. Obviously if one plays great and one doesn't that'll be a clear decision on who "won the trade" but I think, right now, if Mitts signs for a smaller number than people are thinking then the question of 3C is greater. The only necessity for trading Mitts was IF he wanted Cozens/Tage money and hence Adams avoided that debacle. 

And what I'm saying is I don't buy in to the popular theory that Adams made this trade because of Casey's looming contract.

I believe it was purely a roster trade: we had 3 top 6 centres and 3 top 4 defencemen; Adams traded from a position of strength to fill a position of weakness.

Whether Casey signs for $5M or $8M won't really affect my position on the trade much. I will judge it on whether Byram improves the D-corps more than Casey's loss hurts the middle 6 up front. And how Adams backfills the Casey hole (or doesn't) will definitely factor into my judgement.

Edited May 30 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, xzy89c1 said:

lol, both can be true. Byrum is a far better player than mitts. Especially in todays NHL. Thompson is not a good center. We need real centers not what we have today.

Thinking can be hard. I have faith in you!!!!

 

Pegula's goal is to sell the team. he wants out. All his behavior backs that up. Reinart did not want to be here and was a piss poor teammate. Montour was a much better player than he showed here due to Ralph's system of not letting dman join or lead the rush. Ullmark is average goalie. He was on great teams. He is not number one on Boston and the fact he was replaced in playoffs series bears that out. 

 

LOL, ask 32 gms and they will all pick Byrum. Ask any scout. This made my day. too funny. A 3rdish line center or a very good right now and potentially dominant dman? 

Byram - Ask any GM or scout that knows how to spell his name.

Pegula downsized PSG, which was a good thing, and he is raising cash.   That could be to stay better focused on the teams, the new stadium, and the arena improvements -  as of now that is all that is out there.  

Edited May 30 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Dominate D man?  LOL.  Maybe you didn't watch him last season for either the Sabres or Avs.  For an offense oriented D, his best season so far is 29 pts. He has averaged under 20 minutes a night for his career so far.  These numbers put him in as a 3/4 on a decent to good NHL team.  Dahlin is a dominate D.  Makar is a  dominate D, Fox, etc....  He's not even in Montour's class.  Try again.

To be clear, I don't think Byram is dominant either, just very talented.

Something I'm not sure people are aware of is how productive Byram is at even-strength and how PP time colours point totals for defencemen.

His 28 ES points ranked 34th among defencemen in the NHL last year. His peers included John Carlson, Drew Doughty, Vince Dunn, Shea Theodore, Owen Power, Brock Faber and Torrey Krug. He was 8th in ES goals.

He was ahead of age peers like Seider, Sanderson, Luke Hughes and Kaiden Guhle, not to mention veterans like Chychrun, Chabot, Pietrangelo, Seth Jones and Brent Burns.