KO knew very early we didn’t have it - something was missing

[That Aud Smell]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He's been pretty consistently 1 PM for every 2 games played over the past 4 years and it looks like he's had a major every year 🤷‍♂️

I mean more in terms of powerful 2-way play.

[Cranky old man]

KO is just being honest. He’s is by all accounts a good guy on the job and in the community. Let’s face it, he hasn’t been a difference maker on the sabres for a long time. Another member of the zero playoff club of vets we’ve carried for reasons that only God knows. Adams’ decision to bring him back didn’t make the team better. Brett Murray would helped us more, instead he helped the Amerks. Meatballs paid the price for Adam’s incompetence. This scuttlebutt is a sideshow to a sideshow. BFD. 

Edited May 16 by Cranky old man

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I mean more in terms of powerful 2-way play.

As in he doesn't offer it? Not enough of it, I'd say.

He's shown great ability to hold off checkers at times.

But there's power there that's wasted because he'd rather beat guys with his hands.

Without dumping on Granato, we saw no suggestion that he wanted his forwards to engage. We know that's not the case with Lindy.

I'm curious to see whether players like Thompson and Tuch are encouraged to use their size more, not so much to punish, but to impose their will and get inside.

Edited May 16 by dudacek

[Malazan]

16 hours ago, LTS said:

It's a strange comment to make when you look at this Game 4 Recap - https://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/bos-vs-fla/2024/05/12/2023030214

Pretty sure you can't play the puck from the bench, so how did he get an assist on the GWG?

Of course being on the bench in hockey means you are in the lineup, which he has been for every game this series..

Your insults just don't have the right impact when you make such egregious mistakes.

You may have wanted to watch the goal. I'm not sure how integral Okposo losing the puck to Boston was to Barkov taking it back then skating through 3 guys to score.

[That Aud Smell]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

As in he doesn't offer it? Not enough of it, I'd say.

He's shown great ability to hold off checkers at times.

But there's power there that's wasted because he'd rather beat guys with his hands.

Without dumping on Granato, we saw no suggestion that he wanted his forwards to engage. We know that's not the case with Lindy.

I'm curious to see whether players like Thompson and Tuch are encouraged to use their size more, not so much to punish, but to impose their will and get inside.

I’m not being clear.

I seem to recall that there was a long stretch of play for Tage in 22-23 where he was putting up Bergeron type numbers — plenty of points and excellent defensive metrics

[Pimlach]

20 hours ago, Weave said:

Given the makeup of the team, Okposo was as good a choice as any. Actually, he was a better choice than arguably anyone else on the roster, including Dahlin.  KA is squarely to blame not just for the failures on ice.  He is also squarely to blame for saddling Okposo with a responsibility he wasn’t well enough equipped to execute upon.  There wasn’t a single player on the team that was properly equipped to do it.

 

Common denominator of failure in this organization.  Not putting people in places where they are equipped to succeed.  Gm, coach, assistants, captain, role players.  All under qualified to do what was needed.

Okposo was the best choice given what had on the roster for captain.  Looking back we can say he was too tame a person to really make a difference with this young club.  I think they needed a much stronger hand (refer to the booing and chanting reactions, the complaining about UPL/Levi, the slow starts and home record)  

Overall, I think the Captain role is being overrated here at SabreSpace.  I am not looking for a transformation because of who has the C.   Some teams have a guy like Barkov or McKinnon, but most do not. 

What do have going forward? 

Dahlin - best player on the team, one of the few fiery players on the roster, but still young, shows immaturity and erratic play at times, and has never experienced winning in this league. 

Tuch - would be the right age and right experience, not sure he has enough leadership influence, but he seems to do the little things that captains do.  

Cozens -  too young and still very immature, not an option.  Maybe in 4-5 more years. 

Z - not influential enough, the longest standing drought player should probably be moved along

Tage - Maybe give him an A, we need a bounce back scoring season from him - giving him a C might add more pressure.

Trade for a player that has been a Captain before - not out of the question for Ruff but not ideal either 

No C - share the role with three A's.   

 

[Taro T]

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Dude was one of the clowns behind the "we won't salute because they booed our coach" trash, which is the exact sort immature shenanigans that a team in the depths of a struggle didn't need. It was a useless distraction that this team fed into and leaned into.

In fact Tuch even talked about it later in the season. 

Thank you for the reply.  

Not trying to create an argument, but am curious if you take Dahlin to task over his reaction to the "fi-re Donny" chants as well?  He was at least as vocal in criticizing the fans as Tuch was at the time.

Personally, don't take issue with either's reaction to that evening, but don't take issue with others taking issue either.  

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Thank you for the reply.  

Not trying to create an argument, but am curious if you take Dahlin to task over his reaction to the "fi-re Donny" chants as well?  He was at least as vocal in criticizing the fans as Tuch was at the time.

Personally, don't take issue with either's reaction to that evening, but don't take issue with others taking issue either.  

I heard a lot less and IMO a different message from Dahlin. Tuch was still bringing it up months later. 

Either way, the fact none of the "leaders" of the team, shot that ***** down is beyond concerning. Again, it is not the thing they stopped doing, it is the why they stopped. They wanted retribution on the fans and that is a bizarre fight to have as a player for those fans. Especially over something so insignificant. You want to support your coach, play better. Shows how everything is always an outside forces fault, not the players fault. 

[Pimlach]

On 5/15/2024 at 2:02 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I didn't scapegoat anybody. Stop making stuff up to make your points. 

If Okposo isn't that guy (and he isn't) then he shouldn't have been named captain just cause he was what? Likeable? Old? It was just one of many dumb things this franchise has done. He was a bad captain, simple as that. The lack of good veteran leadership on this team is a huge issue. Huge. imo the "plan" is dumb unless it has in fact just been a difference of opinion on timelines and Adams is set to shift things this off season. If they do not make moves and give Ruff what he will need to win it'll be goodbye Adams and get ready to start again. 

I do laugh in general at the "inadequate from a talent standpoint" argument that I see now and again which gets juxtaposed against the how great Quinn and Benson and Peterka and Thompson etc. are. We have more first round drafted players than ANY other NHL team. We have a ton of young talent. Compare them to Boston. They have Pasternak. Offensive superstar. An aging Marchand and who as high end offensive talent? DeBrusk maybe? That's about it. Zacha is middling. Coyle is a good 2 way forward but he's no offensive star. That's it. Way less "talent" than the Sabres, and yet..................................... 

 

Yzermann in Detroit has been trying a different approach than Adams.  Yzerman has not had great results yet either, but he is a bit closer than Adams.  

After stockpiling picks and acquiring some good young players (like Adams did), Yzermann then added decent goaltending (Husso and Lyon) plus many veterans with some tread on the tires (Perron, Fabbri, Copp, Sprong, Compher, Brindicat, Chiarot, Gostisbehere, Petry, etc).  Contrast this list to Sabres who shopped in the $700K bargain bin to prevent blockers.  

The results are that Detroit is only 7 points better, and they missed the playoffs once again due to a late season slump, and a tie breaker.   But more important, not all the pressure is on Larkin, Raymond, and Seider to carry the team - which they are doing anyway.  

I like Buffalo's young players better than Detroit's, Buffalo has more good looking young players, but Buffalo's overall mix is way wrong and has been for the past few seasons.   Players like Perron, Sprong, Compher, Copp are so much harder to play against than Borg, Jost, Robinson, Olofsson, etc.  

Kane's decision to go to Detroit over home town Buffalo says something about what players around the league think.   

Hoping that Ruff's presence can help Adams to upgrade about 5-6 spots on the current roster.   The team needs to get past their ~24 average age and join the NHL, were most teams average age is between 28-29 years old.  

I am so dam tired of watching boys against men. 

Adams so far is not helping his Core, and bringing in more 20-21 years olds is not helping them either.  

Edited May 16 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I heard a lot less and IMO a different message from Dahlin. Tuch was still bringing it up months later. 

Either way, the fact none of the "leaders" of the team, shot that ***** down is beyond concerning. Again, it is not the thing they stopped doing, it is the why they stopped. They wanted retribution on the fans and that is a bizarre fight to have as a player for those fans. Especially over something so insignificant. You want to support your coach, play better. Shows how everything is always an outside forces fault, not the players fault. 

100%. 

Contrast to Boston, who's team got booed after one lax home game.  Montgomery said the fans are right and that they are smart and know what's going on.  

Marchand shrugged and said if we play better they will cheer.  

Even fans in Buffalo and several here at SabreSpace dismissed this as a nothing because the fans salute is "stupid".  Maybe it is, but the players and coaches reaction was the exact opposite of what it should have been.  

 

 

[spndnchz]

🤥

[Taro T]

52 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I heard a lot less and IMO a different message from Dahlin. Tuch was still bringing it up months later. 

Either way, the fact none of the "leaders" of the team, shot that ***** down is beyond concerning. Again, it is not the thing they stopped doing, it is the why they stopped. They wanted retribution on the fans and that is a bizarre fight to have as a player for those fans. Especially over something so insignificant. You want to support your coach, play better. Shows how everything is always an outside forces fault, not the players fault. 

Truthfully, didn't realize that they'd consciously chosen to end the salute.  They did do it after the Washington game to end the home portion of the season.  Hadn't honestly noticed that they weren't doing it after any wins between those 2 games and wasn't here since mid-February so didn't realize people were talking about it either.  Had noticed they hadn't done it a couple of times, but even down the stretch they weren't winning every night they played at home.  So, didn't realize it was an every night thing.  When they would be doing the salute, we'd usually have our backs turned saying goodnight to the people sitting near us.

The night of "fi-re Don-ny" heard Dahlin's take twice (only heard Tuch's once) and he was definitely more upset with the fans than the players, like most of the rest of the team was.

[LTS]

7 hours ago, Malazan said:

You may have wanted to watch the goal. I'm not sure how integral Okposo losing the puck to Boston was to Barkov taking it back then skating through 3 guys to score.

So you admit he was on the ice for the GWG. Got it. Also noted, he was on the bench for all the games so far, which is to say he's in the lineup.  Which is not what you were attempting to say about him. You incorrectly used on the bench as a reference of not playing. It's all good. You said it.

I'm not going to blast Okposo as a captain because to this point we've not seen if this team will listen to anyone.  Be it the "C" or the coach. What we are sure of is that this team blasted accountability as they walked out the door. We know that their new coach said that a player is accountable to themselves and then their teammates before he even mentioned being accountable to the coach.

We'll find out this season if the players that remain are willing to do what it takes. For all I know Okposo said some stuff, found our the roster and coach didn't back it and said "F it". Get me outta here.

The past is in the past. Change the roster, set your leadership, let's see what happens.  The only thing that will change how I feel about this team is winning.

[Malazan]

19 minutes ago, LTS said:

So you admit he was on the ice for the GWG. Got it. Also noted, he was on the bench for all the games so far, which is to say he's in the lineup.  Which is not what you were attempting to say about him. You incorrectly used on the bench as a reference of not playing. It's all good. You said it.

I'm not going to blast Okposo as a captain because to this point we've not seen if this team will listen to anyone.  Be it the "C" or the coach. What we are sure of is that this team blasted accountability as they walked out the door. We know that their new coach said that a player is accountable to themselves and then their teammates before he even mentioned being accountable to the coach.

We'll find out this season if the players that remain are willing to do what it takes. For all I know Okposo said some stuff, found our the roster and coach didn't back it and said "F it". Get me outta here.

The past is in the past. Change the roster, set your leadership, let's see what happens.  The only thing that will change how I feel about this team is winning.

Those goalposts are heavy. I'd also appreciate you not making stuff up. I never said he wasn't on the ice. You completely made that up. I never said he wasn't active. You completely made that up. He's on the bench most of the time like he should have been in Buffalo. He plays a role in Florida where he gets ~10 minutes of ice time. He is a broken down vet that doesn't add much.

So just admit you didn't know he lost the puck to Boston and it was recovered by Barkov who then single-handedly went up the ice through 3 opposing players to score.

 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Yzermann in Detroit has been trying a different approach than Adams.  Yzerman has not had great results yet either, but he is a bit closer than Adams.  

After stockpiling picks and acquiring some good young players (like Adams did), Yzermann then added decent goaltending (Husso and Lyon) plus many veterans with some tread on the tires (Perron, Fabbri, Copp, Sprong, Compher, Brindicat, Chiarot, Gostisbehere, Petry, etc).  Contrast this list to Sabres who shopped in the $700K bargain bin to prevent blockers.  

The results are that Detroit is only 7 points better, and they missed the playoffs once again due to a late season slump, and a tie breaker.   But more important, not all the pressure is on Larkin, Raymond, and Seider to carry the team - which they are doing anyway.  

I like Buffalo's young players better than Detroit's, Buffalo has more good looking young players, but Buffalo's overall mix is way wrong and has been for the past few seasons.   Players like Perron, Sprong, Compher, Copp are so much harder to play against than Borg, Jost, Robinson, Olofsson, etc.  

Kane's decision to go to Detroit over home town Buffalo says about what players around the league think.   

Hoping that Ruff's presence can help Adams to upgrade about 5-6 spots on the current roster.   The team needs to get past their ~24 average age and join the NHL, were most teams average age is between 28-29 years old.  

I am so dam tired of watching boys against men. 

Adams so far is not helping his Core, and bringing in more 20-21 years olds is not helping them either.  

I agree in general but there's a few points I differ on. 

First, yes, Yzerman went a different way (and was mocked on this board as having lost it if you remember) but Detroit did improve and they went from behind us to ahead of us and almost made the playoffs. The young guys there are learning from the veterans Yzerman brought in. We shall see if it lasts or has a lasting impact.

I disagree on the Kane thing though. We focus in on the "from Buffalo" thing but Detroit was closer to his Chicago area home and the logic to his decision might be simpler than we think. Detroit may have also offered him more money. It could be that simple and have nothing to do with the Buffalo perceptions. 

But we absolutely do need veterans and leaders, pros, and Adams definitely has to give Ruff the tools he needs. 

I am expecting a team that looks quite different next year. If it starts the season with the same basic lines and pairings and few if any additions I will start to think Ruff is just going through the motions to pad his retirement and all hope might be lost. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I agree in general but there's a few points I differ on. 

First, yes, Yzerman went a different way (and was mocked on this board as having lost it if you remember) but Detroit did improve and they went from behind us to ahead of us and almost made the playoffs. The young guys there are learning from the veterans Yzerman brought in. We shall see if it lasts or has a lasting impact.

I disagree on the Kane thing though. We focus in on the "from Buffalo" thing but Detroit was closer to his Chicago area home and the logic to his decision might be simpler than we think. Detroit may have also offered him more money. It could be that simple and have nothing to do with the Buffalo perceptions. 

But we absolutely do need veterans and leaders, pros, and Adams definitely has to give Ruff the tools he needs. 

I am expecting a team that looks quite different next year. If it starts the season with the same basic lines and pairings and few if any additions I will start to think Ruff is just going through the motions to pad his retirement and all hope might be lost. 

 

The fact that Ruff signed for 2 years to work in Buffalo when he could have collected millions from NJ to do nothing is evidence the bold is not the case.

It will be interesting to watch over the next 5 years if the Wings were short-term gain for long-term pain, or we were.

The starting points were similar. The Copp, Chairot and Compher contracts were exactly the things Adams refused to do.

Edited May 16 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

The fact that Ruff signed for 2 years to work in Buffalo when he could have collected millions from NJ to do nothing is evidence the bold is not the case.

It will be interesting to watch over the next 5 years if the Wings were short-term gain for long-term pain, or we were.

The starting points were similar. The Copp, Chairot and Compher contracts were exactly the things Adams refused to do.

Yes indeed.  I sure hope Adams turns out correct in the long term view.  

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

The fact that Ruff signed for 2 years to work in Buffalo when he could have collected millions from NJ to do nothing is evidence the bold is not the case.

It will be interesting to watch over the next 5 years if the Wings were short-term gain for long-term pain, or we were.

The starting points were similar. The Copp, Chairot and Compher contracts were exactly the things Adams refused to do.

On Ruff, I certainly hope so. I imagine Lindy also has a big ego (that's not an insult, it's just saying he believes in himself) and he firmly believes he can be the guy to save Buffalo and thus become a legend and hero forever in the community. If Lindy succeeds this time I suspect he will have a place in this organization until he dies even if it's just honorary. 

As for Detroit, I'd be surprised if Yzerman stands pat with what he has so it'll be hard to compare everything. He will be making moves which may be good or bad who knows. Remains to be seen if Adams will make big moves or stand (relatively) pat. 

I personally do not think the current roster (plus prospects) gets us in the playoffs even with Ruff as coach. So for me, the ball is in Adams court. July will be here sooner than we think. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

On Ruff, I certainly hope so. I imagine Lindy also has a big ego (that's not an insult, it's just saying he believes in himself) and he firmly believes he can be the guy to save Buffalo and thus become a legend and hero forever in the community. If Lindy succeeds this time I suspect he will have a place in this organization until he dies even if it's just honorary. 

As for Detroit, I'd be surprised if Yzerman stands pat with what he has so it'll be hard to compare everything. He will be making moves which may be good or bad who knows. Remains to be seen if Adams will make big moves or stand (relatively) pat. 

I personally do not think the current roster (plus prospects) gets us in the playoffs even with Ruff as coach. So for me, the ball is in Adams court. July will be here sooner than we think. 

Right, but Detroit has done exactly what you wanted the Sabres to do: acquire veterans to teach and "block" and "win now" and "play the right way", and pick bigger 2-way guys instead smaller, skilled types.

The Wallinders and Kaspers and Velenos and Cossas and Edvissons and Berggrens have been playing in the minors or down the lineup while the Perrons and the Kanes and Sprongs and Petrys played in Detroit.

Over the past 2 years, each team has missed the playoffs by a single win, and the Sabres have outproduced the Wings by a measly 4 points.

Basically, there has been no meaningful short-term difference from either philosophy, so the difference will be measured in the long-term.

Will Detroit regret some of the long-term veteran contracts they've signed?

Will the Sabres regret the contracts they've given some unproven kids?

Will the prospects develop better being shielded and slow cooked, or force-fed NHL minutes?

I mean you're right, future moves might muddy the waters, but having the mirror image plan unfold at the same time in the same division will be fascinating.

Edited May 17 by dudacek

[Believer]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:18 AM, Pimlach said:

Okposo was overrated as a Captain and a leader

Okposo was a feckless Captain.

He should have turned in his C when the team turned its back on the fans for a couple weeks. If he wasn’t part of the boycott, and spoke out against it instead as you would expect a Captain to do, he sure had no respect in the locker room.

Feckless.

 

[Sabre The Cup]

On 5/15/2024 at 4:21 PM, JustOneParade said:

And what is your rationale for claiming Okposo was a fraud? Wins (or lack thereof)? You're going to lay that on him? Has he ever said anything publicly to give you the impression he was a fraud? Do you have some information about his interactions in the locker room? At practices? 

The character of the team. 

I swear, all these losing years are karma for the fans cheering losses during the tank. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Right, but Detroit has done exactly what you wanted the Sabres to do: acquire veterans to teach and "block" and "win now" and "play the right way", and pick bigger 2-way guys instead smaller, skilled types.

The Wallinders and Kaspers and Velenos and Cossas and Edvissons and Berggrens have been playing in the minors or down the lineup while the Perrons and the Kanes and Sprongs and Petrys played in Detroit.

Over the past 2 years, each team has missed the playoffs by a single win, and the Sabres have outproduced the Wings by a measly 4 points.

Basically, there has been no meaningful short-term difference from either philosophy, so the difference will be measured in the long-term.

Will Detroit regret some of the long-term veteran contracts they've signed?

Will the Sabres regret the contracts they've given some unproven kids?

Will the prospects develop better being shielded and slow cooked, or force-fed NHL minutes?

I mean you're right, future moves might muddy the waters, but having the mirror image plan unfold at the same time in the same division will be fascinating.

Okay, you can look at it that way, I'm okay with that. So we shall see. 

Not only did they do what I had advocated for the Sabres, they drafted the guy I wanted in Nate Danielson as well. If they pick Liam Greentree this year, which is a possibility I will be really pissed if those picks pan out in a few years. 

[Weave]

8 hours ago, Sabre The Cup said:

The character of the team. 

I swear, all these losing years are karma for the fans cheering losses during the tank. 

Too bad the rest of us get to suffer along side them. 🤮

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

I think we’ve already decided to do nothing this summer. It is going to be another year to develop prospects in Buffalo….

Kulich and Rosen are already locks on the 2024-25 roster. 
This is not what we need.

We need bigger, stronger, grittier players that win in the corners and go to the net without exception. We need forecheckers and backcheckers that win on the dot. We need players that make other players not want to play us.

Yes, of course you need talent too but talent without toughness does not win in the NHL…

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, B-U-F-F-A-L-O said:

I think we’ve already decided to do nothing this summer. It is going to be another year to develop prospects in Buffalo….

Kulich and Rosen are already locks on the 2024-25 roster. 
This is not what we need.

We need bigger, stronger, grittier players that win in the corners and go to the net without exception. We need forecheckers and backcheckers that win on the dot. We need players that make other players not want to play us.

Yes, of course you need talent too but talent without toughness does not win in the NHL…

Personally, don't believe either Kulich nor Rosen are locks to be on the roster out of the gate unless there is a major injury or 2 soon before or during TC.  Maybe 1 makes it out of camp even without injures; but if Adams is true to his word of adding at least 2 good F's that aren't currently on the roster; there isn't a space for either anywhere but the 4th line and neither provided the "identity" that Adams says he wants out of the bottom 6.

Injury call-ups mid season; sure.  Forcing management to keep them there after that call-up; maybe.  Out of the gate; not so much.