KO knew very early we didn’t have it - something was missing

[That Aud Smell]

16 minutes ago, Weave said:

I think that fully falls under my final point that organizationally, nearly the entire chain is not properly equipped to fulfill the tasks that are required for winning.

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, Weave said:

I think that fully falls under my final point that organizationally, nearly the entire chain is not properly equipped to fulfill the tasks that are required for winning.

I give you full credit 

Edited May 15 by Thorny

[Weave]

16 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

It’s like a triple positive.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

If you want to scapegoat someone then direct your attention to the GM who put this team together and hired the HC and kept him on longer than he should have. This roster was inadequate from a talent standpoint and from the way the team was constructed. Okposo as a player and captain was an inconsequential factor in this team's failure. It's obvious that Okposo had a low-key personality and not hard in your face challenging style of leadership. He is who he is. To expect him to be something he was not was unrealistic. 

I didn't scapegoat anybody. Stop making stuff up to make your points. 

If Okposo isn't that guy (and he isn't) then he shouldn't have been named captain just cause he was what? Likeable? Old? It was just one of many dumb things this franchise has done. He was a bad captain, simple as that. The lack of good veteran leadership on this team is a huge issue. Huge. imo the "plan" is dumb unless it has in fact just been a difference of opinion on timelines and Adams is set to shift things this off season. If they do not make moves and give Ruff what he will need to win it'll be goodbye Adams and get ready to start again. 

I do laugh in general at the "inadequate from a talent standpoint" argument that I see now and again which gets juxtaposed against the how great Quinn and Benson and Peterka and Thompson etc. are. We have more first round drafted players than ANY other NHL team. We have a ton of young talent. Compare them to Boston. They have Pasternak. Offensive superstar. An aging Marchand and who as high end offensive talent? DeBrusk maybe? That's about it. Zacha is middling. Coyle is a good 2 way forward but he's no offensive star. That's it. Way less "talent" than the Sabres, and yet..................................... 

 

Edited May 15 by PerreaultForever

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I think that fully falls under my final point that organizationally, nearly the entire chain is not properly equipped to fulfill the tasks that are required for winning.

Which of these key people do you see as being in over their heads?

• GM: Adams
• AGM: Karmanos
• Head scout: Forton
• Player development director: Mair
• Analytics director: Ventura
• Head coach: Ruff
• 1C: Thompson
• 2C: Cozens
• Power forward: Tuch
• Goal scorer: Skinner
• 1D: Dahlin
• 2D: Power
• Shutdown defender: Samuelsson
• Starter: UPL
• Captain: ???

I’d say only Karmanos and Lindy are proven fully in their position, although I would make arguments for Ventura and Dahlin. Some might add Skinner, but not me.

 

Edited May 15 by dudacek

[JustOneParade]

19 hours ago, Sabre The Cup said:

What happened to the heroic captain we were sold the last 3-4 years? 
 

It’s win/lead first and business second for the great ones. Like Josh Allen. 
 

Okposo is and always was a fraud. 

And what is your rationale for claiming Okposo was a fraud? Wins (or lack thereof)? You're going to lay that on him? Has he ever said anything publicly to give you the impression he was a fraud? Do you have some information about his interactions in the locker room? At practices? 

[PerreaultForever]

"In over their heads" to me is a strange way to look at it but maybe we aren't too far apart, we maybe just word things differently. To me it's a lack of continuity and veteran leadership. Adams plan is that this group (himself included I think) learn from their mistakes and eventually get it. How that is supposed to happen I have no idea. 

So you have a bad team, and you tank. You start there. You have absolutely nothing left because you stripped it all away to tank. That's your start and then you build with a hotshot superstar and his tandem bike partner. What else does Murray do? He gets a competitive 2 way center in ROR, a tough D man in Bogo, a big young goalie projected to be good in Lehner, a power forward in need of a new start in Evander Kane (as a side note it is funny to see Evander Kane mentioned as a player style we need in the playoff thread). All of that seems logical and are things we talk about now that they are gone. But it doesn't work. He traded away picks, drafted poorly and failed to fill out the roster. Most importantly coaching fails. So what do we do? We blame the players. We start again. 

JBot sees we have no D. He tries to get a whole bunch of them but none of it comes together under horrible rookie coaches. He signs another big shot forward. His drafting is better, but not great. Once again we blame the players AND the coaches. So Adams tears it down and starts again. Now we have so many young prospects we don't know what to do with them and finally a veteran coach, but still little to no veteran leadership. 

I know I've left things out but there's a lot and I've typed enough for now. The main point being that everything currently being advocated for has already been tried over the Pegula era except hiring a competent veteran coach. Now we have that. So, MAYBE, it can finally get going in the right direction. If this fails, I truly have no ideas other then to say it's the water. Ya'll be best to move. 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I didn't scapegoat anybody. Stop making stuff up to make your points. 

If Okposo isn't that guy (and he isn't) then he shouldn't have been named captain just cause he was what? Likeable? Old? It was just one of many dumb things this franchise has done. He was a bad captain, simple as that. The lack of good veteran leadership on this team is a huge issue. Huge. imo the "plan" is dumb unless it has in fact just been a difference of opinion on timelines and Adams is set to shift things this off season. If they do not make moves and give Ruff what he will need to win it'll be goodbye Adams and get ready to start again. 

I do laugh in general at the "inadequate from a talent standpoint" argument that I see now and again which gets juxtaposed against the how great Quinn and Benson and Peterka and Thompson etc. are. We have more first round drafted players than ANY other NHL team. We have a ton of young talent. Compare them to Boston. They have Pasternak. Offensive superstar. An aging Marchand and who as high end offensive talent? DeBrusk maybe? That's about it. Zacha is middling. Coyle is a good 2 way forward but he's no offensive star. That's it. Way less "talent" than the Sabres, and yet..................................... 

 

Given the roster available, Who would you have chosen for captain instead? And do you really think there would have been an on ice difference?

[Weave]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Which of these key people do you see as being in over their heads?

• GM: Adams
• AGM: Karmanos
• Head scout: Forton
• Player development director: Mair
• Analytics director: Ventura
• Head coach: Ruff
• 1C: Thompson
• 2C: Cozens
• Power forward: Tuch
• Goal scorer: Skinner
• 1D: Dahlin
• 2D: Power
• Shutdown defender: Samuelsson
• Starter: UPL
• Captain: ???

I’d say only Karmanos and Lindy are proven fully in their position, although I would make arguments for Ventura and Dahlin. Some might add Skinner, but not me.

 

I presume this is rhetorical?  I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to Forton.  Beyond that I have more questions than answers.

I wouldn’t try to argue against Dahlin, but I’m not smitten either.

I can’t shake the feeling Tage is a fraud, but I can’t exactly put my finger on why either.

Edited May 15 by Weave

[7+6=13]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Given the roster available, Who would you have chosen for captain instead? And do you really think there would have been an on ice difference?

Agreed, he was the captain because there wasn't a better option.  That wasn't his fault but also means that he wasn't good enough.

For what he was paid, he sure should have been more than a good guy.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I wouldn’t try to argue against Dahlin, but I’m not smitten either.

I can’t shake the feeling Tage is a fraud, but I can’t exactly put my finger on why either.

Interesting stuff here.

My lingering concern with Tage is that he won’t hold up. Tall fella. Very tall. UNNATURALLY TALL. Short stick. Torqued one timers. The back injury in 22-23? The slow start in 23-24. Idk, man.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

 

I can’t shake the feeling Tage is a fraud, but I can’t exactly put my finger on why either.

 

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

My lingering concern with Tage is that he won’t hold up. Tall fella. Very tall. UNNATURALLY TALL. Short stick. Torqued one timers. The back injury in 22-23? The slow start in 23-24. Idk, man.

I’d guess what you are concerned about Weave is akin to Aud’s point to which I do agree with. It’s not so much skill or passion with Tage as much as injury concerns.

Edited May 15 by thewookie1

[Weave]

44 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

 

I’d guess what you are concerned about Weave is akin to Aud’s point to which I do agree with. It’s not so much skill or passion with Tage as much as injury concerns.

Wrong on both accounts.

Like I said, I can’t put my finger on it, but he seems too gimmicky to be a 1C.  He’s not a one trick pony, but he sure isn’t a prototypical 1C either.  I have a gut feeling it won’t work out beyond a team with no expectations.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, 7+6=13 said:

Agreed, he was the captain because there wasn't a better option.  That wasn't his fault but also means that he wasn't good enough.

For what he was paid, he sure should have been more than a good guy.

2 seasons ago, there were no better options.  Last season, one of Dahlin or Tuch should've had the C and though few here would like this next call (and it would've made for a VERY awkward trade deadline) but Mittelstadt should've had the other A.  The team NEEDED to have the younger guys that were top pairing / top liner that others look to to take on that leadership role.

And, in a worst case, we would've found out that Dahlin and Tuch weren't capable in those roles and Adams could at this point be looking for more than just a 2/3W and a 3/4C and possibly shuffling the 4W's.  He could be looking to fill a leadership void.  

My 2 cents.  Ymmv.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Wrong on both accounts.

Like I said, I can’t put my finger on it, but he seems too gimmicky to be a 1C.  He’s not a one trick pony, but he sure isn’t a prototypical 1C either.  I have a gut feeling it won’t work out beyond a team with no expectations.

Certainly nothing textbook about him.

His decision-making can be so frustrating on the ice some times.

His off-ice demeanour continues to impress me though. This is the son of minor-league-tough-guy-for-hire-turned-coach. he’s a kid with a healthy mix of resolve and don’t-give-a*****-what-you-think, who thrives on being told he can’t or won’t. He doesn’t complain or make excuses, and he’s all business.

Only centres to have scored more goals over the last 3 years are named Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl and Point. That’s impressive.

Edited May 16 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

42 minutes ago, Taro T said:

2 seasons ago, there were no better options.  Last season, one of Dahlin or Tuch should've had the C and though few here would like this next call (and it would've made for a VERY awkward trade deadline) but Mittelstadt should've had the other A.  The team NEEDED to have the younger guys that were top pairing / top liner that others look to to take on that leadership role.

And, in a worst case, we would've found out that Dahlin and Tuch weren't capable in those roles and Adams could at this point be looking for more than just a 2/3W and a 3/4C and possibly shuffling the 4W's.  He could be looking to fill a leadership void.  

My 2 cents.  Ymmv.

Tuch proved to be immature. Imo

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Tuch proved to be immature. Imo

Not sure precisely what you mean by this?  Would be interested if you could elaborate.

He battled through some sort of injury that happened as camp opened / right before camp and was (along with Thompson and a few others) pretty bad the 1st 1/2 of the season.  He seemed to get healthy around January and he started looking like his old self about then.

His poor start was a significant part of the team's poor start; but as alluded above, not sure that it was part and parcel of immaturity.

[Big Guava]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:00 AM, triumph_communes said:

Dad energy leader and development to a fault coach. No surprise. Spilled milk, we got Ruff and he has bark 

Ruff is going to crack the whip but honestly the players need to be cracking the whip on each other, that's the only way it's going to work.

Can they do that? Remains to be seen. They have all the talent they need. They need the mentality and the attitude.

Edited May 16 by Big Guava

[triumph_communes]

2 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Ruff is going to crack the whip but honestly the players need to be cracking the whip on each other, that's the only way it's going to work.

Can they do that? Remains to be seen. They have all the talent they need. They need the mentality and the attitude.

Yes. Good leadership is contagious 

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Which of these key people do you see as being in over their heads?

• GM: Adams - Way far over his head
• AGM: Karmanos - Rochester has been good under his watch
• Head scout: Forton - Nothing wrong with our drafting
• Player development director: Mair - Hard to judge
• Analytics director: Ventura - Is he bad at his job or were the coaches bad at utilizing his information?
• Head coach: Ruff - I've always been a Lindy fan so.....
• 1C: Thompson - Likely better as a 2C
• 2C: Cozens - Needs to be a 3C or winger
• Power forward: Tuch - No issues with Tuch, he the team's top returning playmaker
• Goal scorer: Skinner - Streaky scorer in season and from season to season
• 1D: Dahlin - Legit No. 1 Defender
• 2D: Power - Color me un-impressed.  Not aggressive enough and not good enough in the D zone.
• Shutdown defender: Samuelsson - Assuming he's healthy?
• Starter: UPL - Earned the job, but I won't call him a proven starter yet.
• Captain: ???

I’d say only Karmanos and Lindy are proven fully in their position, although I would make arguments for Ventura and Dahlin. Some might add Skinner, but not me.

 

In over their heads - Adams, Thompson, and Cozens. (Pegula)

Not enough info - Mair & Ventura

Not proven yet but possible - UPL, Samuelsson, and Power

Qualified and good at their jobs - Karmanos, Forton, Ruff, Tuch, and Dahlin

Depends on the week and the season - Skinner - will likely be surpassed this coming season by JJP and Quinn. 

[LGR4GM]

54 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not sure precisely what you mean by this?  Would be interested if you could elaborate.

He battled through some sort of injury that happened as camp opened / right before camp and was (along with Thompson and a few others) pretty bad the 1st 1/2 of the season.  He seemed to get healthy around January and he started looking like his old self about then.

His poor start was a significant part of the team's poor start; but as alluded above, not sure that it was part and parcel of immaturity.

Dude was one of the clowns behind the "we won't salute because they booed our coach" trash, which is the exact sort immature shenanigans that a team in the depths of a struggle didn't need. It was a useless distraction that this team fed into and leaned into.

In fact Tuch even talked about it later in the season. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Given the roster available, Who would you have chosen for captain instead? And do you really think there would have been an on ice difference?

Tuch, and a small difference, but also a move in the right direction and a shift in tone. I think. 

[GoPuckYourself]

It's embarrassing that Kyle Okposo was our captain. 

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

Wrong on both accounts.

Like I said, I can’t put my finger on it, but he seems too gimmicky to be a 1C.  He’s not a one trick pony, but he sure isn’t a prototypical 1C either.  I have a gut feeling it won’t work out beyond a team with no expectations.

This continues to be an interesting take.

Otoh, wasn’t there a long stretch in 22-23 where he was tracking as a Lady Bynge candidate?

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

This continues to be an interesting take.

Otoh, wasn’t there a long stretch in 22-23 where he was tracking as a Lady Bynge candidate?

He's been pretty consistently 1 PM for every 2 games played over the past 4 years and it looks like he's had a major every year 🤷‍♂️