KO knew very early we didn’t have it - something was missing

[SwampD]

Maddening.

Add it to the pile.

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

When Comrie was finally healthy again, the players (aka Okposo) lobbied for management to keep UPL up in Buffalo rather than return him to the Amerks thus birthing the "3 headed monster."

Source for this assertion?

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Source for this assertion?

Don't recall and can't find the notes.  Thought it was Adams himself, might've been Okposo.

[Doohicksie]

Eh, even then, I'm not sure keeping UPL with the team necessarily birthed in the monster; it was the failure to waive Comrie to send him down right away (or simply move Levi down).

One flaw I see in Adams is that he makes a promise to a player, he stands by it for too long, even when the situation changes.  If you recall, there was worry that Levi would walk into free agency at the end of his college career.  I think Adams promised him he'd go right to the NHL to get him to sign with the Sabres.  At the end of last season that didn't look like a bad commitment, but it became apparent pretty quickly this season.  I think Kevyn felt he'd made a commitment to Levi and when Levi struggled early this season Kevyn hesitated too long to send him down.

Hearing what Levi has said about his time in Rochester, I think things would have been fine if Kevyn had moved him down earlier.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

This where I’m at. However, I do think he has earned the right to correct it and learn from it, which know us not  a popular sentiment. 

In what way has Adams earned the right?   The "only missed by one point" season was Granato's coaching effort almost overcoming Adams poor effort with the roster.  

I do agree to giving him more time ONLY because this team still looks like a $hit show from the outside and all the change gets amplified when you lose.  Plus he hired a new coach so he should be tied to him for awhile. 

Adams still looks to be a mile over his head as a GM, but who else are they going to get?  The owner has huge trust issues with bringing in experienced and strong hockey leaders and he is not respected in the league.  

Adams coaching search sure raised a few eyebrows.  He said one thing and he did another.  He knows Lindy, they live in Clarence, Lindy helped give him a start, Lindy is a true Sabre, Lindy has credibility, Lindy is proven, ya da, ya da, ya da.  

He may have talked to a few candidates, but he never had serious interviews with any of the top candidates - Toronto is doing that now and actually bringing guys like McLellan and Berube into the building to talk, and taking more than 3 days to do this.  

Adams did the easiest thing he could do in hiring Lindy.  You could have made that hire happen.

Lindy could work out, and he might be enough to get whatever growth is needed to make them a playoff team.   But Adams is still there because his time as a GM is not up yet, I do not see anything earned. 

His ascent to become an NHL GM still looks like a puzzling and desperate move, made by a billionaire couple worried about the family fortune in the face of a global pandemic. 

He has not proven or earned anything other than his ability to be Pegula's trusted yes man.   His timer now moves on to season 5.  

Edited May 14 by Pimlach

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

In what way has Adams earned the right?   The "only missed by one point" season was Granato's coaching effort almost overcoming Adams poor effort with the roster.  

I do agree to giving him more time ONLY because this team still looks like a $hit show from the outside and all the change gets amplified when you lose.  Plus he hired a new coach so he should be tied to him for awhile. 

Adams still looks to be a mile over his head as a GM, but who else are they going to get?  The owner has huge trust issues with bringing in experienced and strong hockey leaders and he is not respected in the league.  

Adams coaching search sure raised a few eyebrows.  He said one thing and he did another.  He knows Lindy, they live in Clarence, Lindy helped give him a start, Lindy is a true Sabre, Lindy has credibility, Lindy is proven, ya da, ya da, ya da.  

He may have talked to a few candidates, but he never had serious interviews with any of the top candidates - Toronto is doing that now and actually bringing guys like McLellan and Berube into the building to talk, and taking more than 3 days to do this.  

Adams did the easiest thing he could do in hiring Lindy.  You could have made that hire happen.

Lindy could work out, and he might be enough to get whatever growth is needed to make them a playoff team.   But Adams is still there because his time as a GM is not up yet, I do not see anything earned. 

His ascent to become an NHL GM still looks like a puzzling and desperate move, made by a billionaire couple worried about the family fortune in the face of a global pandemic. 

He has not proven or earned anything other than his ability to be Pegula's trusted yes man.   His timer now moves onto season 5.  

The last paragraph is wrong and the others make assumptions disguised as absolute truths.

He convinced TPEGS to build/rebuild the analytics, scouting and front office staff. He has kept him at arms length by keeping him informed. Yes, he has made mistakes and I have blasted him for it. Ullmark and the assumption that progress was linear have been my biggest beefs. This year is obviously crucial and there won’t be a sixth without playoffs next April.

[Pimlach]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Except it was the previous season.  When Comrie was finally healthy again, the players (aka Okposo) lobbied for management to keep UPL up in Buffalo rather than return him to the Amerks thus birthing the "3 headed monster."  Absolutely would believe that management asked for Okposo's input on moves and how the season was progressing as Adams has stated repeatedly that he does solicit opinions and has "honest conversations" with everybody in the organization.

And, with that said, no, the roster deficiencies were NOT on Okposo or any of the other players.  They fell in large degree on Adams and to a far lesser degree on Granato.

To the bolded:   When Adams is having all of these  "honest conversations with everybody in the organization" he is in fact getting opinions, and this technique is actually a method of soliciting them.  

We should all have learned by now not to take Adams comments to the press at full face value.  

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, tom webster said:

The last paragraph is wrong and the others make assumptions disguised as absolute truths.

He convinced TPEGS to build/rebuild the analytics, scouting and front office staff. He has kept him at arms length by keeping him informed. Yes, he has made mistakes and I have blasted him for it. Ullmark and the assumption that progress was linear have been my biggest beefs. This year is obviously crucial and there won’t be a sixth without playoffs next April.

I think my last paragraph is 100% correct. He has not earned anything.  He is there because of time and the new coach.   Those are the things keeping him in the job right now.   Being loyal and following Pegula's demands are another factor in his favor.   As we know, Boterill eventually refused to do that 

Yes, he brought in some good analytics guys and he seems to have drafted some decent prospects while dealing away Eichel, Reinhart, Risto, Montour.  The loss of Linus and the subsequent handling of goaltending for 3 straight years has been a big problem.    

I made not one assumption either, it all there in the reality of what happened.  

[MISabresFan]

Hopefully there is some type of Hieracrchy.  Gm is responsible for "x".  Head coach is responsible for "y".  Assitant Coaches "z".  Captain is responsible for "C".

Creating an organizational structure brings accountability.  We are having issues with the locker room.  The team isn't doing well on the powerplay.  Why do we start off slow.   

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Adams and Granato are to blame. They did nothing, nothing. 

 

[triumph_communes]

Ullmark isn’t even playing in the playoffs. He just had a good defense in front of him, he’s nothing to moan about. 

[JustOneParade]

I tend to look at this issue in two question form.

1. Since the tank commenced, who have been the good captains on this team?

2. What other captains in the league, because of their leadership qualities, would have made a difference in the Sabres season? (Exclude the 80-120 point producing C's because that certainly would have made a difference).

If the answer to those questions is no one then the problem is NOT the guy wearing the C.

Edited May 14 by JustOneParade
delete extra spaces

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Okposo's observation that there was something amiss with the Sabres as early as October, November is one that any of us could have made (and, indeed, did make). 

What rankles me anew is how this same player, Okposo, led (or at least approved (which, as captain, is leading)) the no-salute policy when the fans were chanting "fire Donny" in mid-December.

Those fans (just a segment of them, btw) were reacting to the same sh1t that Okposo says he perceived in October/November. But his response to the  fans' chants of unrest was still "yeah, f**k them fans."

He seems like a nice guy. Please never come back. Not even for a Bills game or wings at Elmo's.

It’s pretty much like in that Big Bang Theory episode (or, see also: real life) where they are sitting around making fun of phantom menace and Penny chimes in and Raj says “we can make fun of it. You can’t”. 

WE aren’t really part of this. WE don’t really know what we’re talking about.

It was just another sad indicator of the disconnect between this regime/its players and the fan base (and probably why hiring Lindy was so important) 

They have no interest in claiming actual Sabres identity. Maybe we don’t have one. But if we don’t, our identity is definitely failure to make the playoffs for 13 years: which is the exact identity Adams goes out of his way to distance himself from, like with Seravali recently

Even the long form plan they took was with full knowledge of and I’d argue disregard for the position the fans are in, of no playoffs: there was zero urgency to claim that and fix that: they are doing their own thing 

it’s been hard for me. I see the crest, but since Adams took over the team has been unfamiliar. And they’ve done it by choice 

for the record, I get WHY. It is difficult though. Ideally you’d think there’d be a middle ground - we haven’t seen it but Ruff is a sign it might be now here 

Edited May 14 by Thorny

[dudacek]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

Adams knew about the issues.  He said as much in his post season presser.

I said it then, Adams was complicit in the Sabres missing the playoffs this season.  He knew the issues and did not react to them in any demonstrable way.

I don’t blame KO for chasing an opportunity at all.  He saw KA sit on his hands as this team struggled to rise up.  No help for Quinn’s injury.  No offseason boost to the bottom 6.  And no help from the GM when the team needed a shakeup badly.

Adams is more than complicit, he is fully responsible. He built it, watched it flounder and failed to quickly react.

Some context is necessary here: GMs can't and don't work on a game-to-game basis, the system doesn't allow it: proof of his failure happened in real time, over a 2-month span. By the time he and those around him were convinced their judgement was wrong, the season was already lost.

@Thorny nailed this yesterday. He was done in by his own stubbornness and trust in his process.

 

 

 

Edited May 14 by dudacek

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Ullmark isn’t even playing in the playoffs. He just had a good defense in front of him, he’s nothing to moan about. 

He's a very competent NHL goalie and if the Sabres had managed to keep him, there would have been no Comrie, UPL could have had a smoother development and Levi could have spent more time seasoning in Rochester.  If we eventually ended up with three legit goalies we could have traded one to fill a need elsewhere on the team.  I think if the Sabres had retained Ullmark they would have made the playoffs the last two seasons.

But yeah, sure, nothing to moan about.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

This where I’m at. However, I do think he has earned the right to correct it and learn from it, which know us not  a popular sentiment. 

Absolutely. One mulligan is fair

its all about playoffs in ‘25 now 

[dudacek]

I'm going to add that Adams has not wavered in his trust in the process.

He views last year as a stumble, not proof of failure.

He's told us what he's going to do: target areas of improvement: Ruff, Appert, Byram, (and, promised at least) harder-to-play-against style, middle and/or bottom 6 forward additions, and better PP, while maintaining his faith in the core he's built.

He's climbed his hill and planted his flag. Next season is win or die.

Edited May 14 by dudacek

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Adams is more than complicit, he is fully responsible. He built it, watched it flounder and failed to quickly react.

Some context it necessary here: GMs can't and don't work on a game-to-game basis, the system doesn't allow it: proof of his failure happened in real time, over a 2-month span. By the time he and those around him were convinced their judgement was wrong, the season was already lost.

@Thorny nailed this yesterday. He was done in by his own stubbornness and trust in his process.

 

 

 

And some of the plan was downright bizarre.  Pretty sure Patrick Kane was the plan's replacement for the injured Quinn even though both were on the same timeline more or less to become available.  The Sabres being so futile the 1st 2-3 months of the season is a big part of why Kane chose Detroit over Buffalo.  

But, had Adams made a move to actually replace Quinn, the team might've been good enough to cause Kane to sign up and then he'd've been essentially bringing in 3 "middle 6" or maybe even 2nd line W's that the team ended up as it all played out not having on day 1.

Wonder if that "top 9" winger that Adams is planning on chasing is still Patrick Kane and bringing in Ruff is part of making that a reality?

[SwampD]

26 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Ullmark isn’t even playing in the playoffs. He just had a good defense in front of him, he’s nothing to moan about. 

And they’re down 3-1.

[Jorcus]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Begs to question who is the culprit or culprits.

I doubt its Cozens or Thompson for as much as their seasons started rocky; Cozens was over playing the puck and Thompson always starts a bit slow but got injured when he started to get grooving.

Dahlin isn't the issue because he's shown a million times that he's willing to block shots, throw and receive hits, etc. 

 

Its very unusual as a whole; perhaps the pressure of the drought is getting to them and when the injuries started they just lost their oomph

 

There were a number of issues for the slow start but to my eye Thompson was not right from the get go. It was more than his slow start issues. What I saw was that he was not skating very well. I wondered if this all went back to the back injury he took later in the year before. He seemed slow and stiff. For some reason he was overhandling the puck and giving it up often. I never heard a reporter ask why he was playing on the first PK unit. Then he gets his hand broke blocking a shot on the PK. Tuch was also having issues in the first part of the season and the Sabres schedule was a bit front end loaded. By December Tuch looked like he needed some time off. 

By the last third of the season those two players started coming around. Thompson was skating better, not great but better, Tuch found his rhythm. and they started to play a bit better. Not well enough but not as bad. You have to think KO was aware this was never going to go well in NOV/DEC without those two guys in top form. 

The Sabres waived the white flag on the playoffs when they traded KO. Not that he was that important but with no NHL return it was a give away. The Casey trade was more impactful in the short run against the Sabres but at least least there was a return for better or worse. 

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Begs to question who is the culprit or culprits.

I doubt its Cozens or Thompson for as much as their seasons started rocky; Cozens was over playing the puck and Thompson always starts a bit slow but got injured when he started to get grooving.

Dahlin isn't the issue because he's shown a million times that he's willing to block shots, throw and receive hits, etc. 

 

Its very unusual as a whole; perhaps the pressure of the drought is getting to them and when the injuries started they just lost their oomph

 

There were a number of issues for the slow start but to my eye Thompson was not right from the get go. It was more than his slow start issues. What I saw was that he was not skating very well. I wondered if this all went back to the back injury he took later in the year before. He seemed slow and stiff. For some reason he was overhandling the puck and giving it up often. I never heard a reporter ask why he was playing on the first PK unit. Then he gets his hand broke blocking a shot on the PK. Tuch was also having issues in the first part of the season and the Sabres schedule was a bit front end loaded. By December Tuch looked like he needed some time off. 

By the last third of the season those two players started coming around. Thompson was skating better, not great but better, Tuch found his rhythm. and they started to play a bit better. Not well enough but not as bad. You have to think KO was aware this was never going to go well in NOV/DEC without those two guys in top form. 

The Sabres waived the white flag on the playoffs when they traded KO. Not that he was that important but with no NHL return it was a give away. The Casey trade was more impactful in the short run against the Sabres but at least least there was a return for better or worse. 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm going to add that Adams has not wavered in his trust in the process.

He views last year as a stumble, not proof of failure.

He's told us what he's going to do: target areas of improvement: Ruff, Appert, Byram, (and, promised at least) harder-to-play-against style, middle and/or bottom 6 forward additions, and better PP, while maintaining his faith in the core he's built.

He's climbed his hill and planted his flag. Next season is win or die.

Live look at Kevyn Adams as fans watch on from a helicopter 

Or is THIS a live look? 

We’ll have to wait until next season to find out 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm going to add that Adams has not wavered in his trust in the process.

He views last year as a stumble, not proof of failure.

He's told us what he's going to do: target areas of improvement: Ruff, Appert, Byram, (and, promised at least) harder-to-play-against style, middle and/or bottom 6 forward additions, and better PP, while maintaining his faith in the core he's built.

He's climbed his hill and planted his flag. Next season is win or die.

He 100% is a believer in the vision he has for making this work.  And he COULD be right.

It's just that there is soooooo much variability in when (or even IF) kids will develop that even if he IS right, he could still be wrong.  Which is where their inability to convert just one more regulation loss from a year ago into a win is such a tragic event.  People would've been fine with the step back this year (not happy about it, but ok with it), if they'd've made the playoffs last year.  It wouldn't've adjusted Adams trajectory nor urgency but it would've placated the fanbase.

And, even though 93 points would've been good enough either of the last 2 years, it still isn't actually GOOD.  But it would've been good enough.

Personally, have faith that the skaters on this team can be good enough.  Not fully convinced the coaching will be, considering how much of it wasn't good enough last year and is being brought back anyway.  The wildcard in it all is will the GT be good enough?  If it is, can't see none of the 5 good teams in the east taking a step back while at least 3 other teams besides the Sabres actually become "good"; so they'll be good enough to make the playoffs.  If it isn't, maybe the rest of it will be good enough to get them in, but not nearly as certain.  Would REALLY like to see Adams hedge his bet some; but he hasn't done it once in the previous 3 years.  Don't expect to see him start doing it now.  Which also raises the angst level of this off-season.

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And some of the plan was downright bizarre.  Pretty sure Patrick Kane was the plan's replacement for the injured Quinn even though both were on the same timeline more or less to become available.  The Sabres being so futile the 1st 2-3 months of the season is a big part of why Kane chose Detroit over Buffalo.  

But, had Adams made a move to actually replace Quinn, the team might've been good enough to cause Kane to sign up and then he'd've been essentially bringing in 3 "middle 6" or maybe even 2nd line W's that the team ended up as it all played out not having on day 1.

Wonder if that "top 9" winger that Adams is planning on chasing is still Patrick Kane and bringing in Ruff is part of making that a reality?

Kane being the replacement seems less absurd if you think about how Adams was probably, in his mind, debating whether it was worth making a move sooner to replace Quinn to finish second in the Atlantic rather than third. 

He *can’t* be so utterly nonchalant about playoffs to the extent he’d pass on a replacement (YES he could have done something) if he thought we’d be hit-miss on WC2. I just can’t believe he would be. Adams definitely thought we’d be better off keeping whatever trade asset dry in the case the injury ended up more less irrelevant to our high powered offence to use on a deadline deal for a superfluous but beneficial add

a costly mistake 

@DarthEbriate his overconfidence was his weakness 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Kane being the replacement seems less absurd if you think about how Adams was probably, in his mind, debating whether it was worth making a move sooner to replace Quinn to finish second in the Atlantic rather than third. 

He *can’t* be so utterly nonchalant about playoffs to the extent he’d pass on a replacement (YES he could have done something) if he thought we’d be hit-miss on WC2. I just can’t believe he would be. Adams definitely thought we’d be better off keeping whatever trade asset dry in the case the injury ended up more less irrelevant to our high powered offence to use on a deadline deal for a superfluous but beneficial add

a costly mistake 

That could very well be correct.  He and the rest of the organization clearly expected to have a really strong October regardless of the personnel simply because that's what they got the 2 previous years even though they were regularly playing teams that looked better than them on paper (and actually were better than them).   So, just being down one middle six W wasn't expected to tank the start of the year.

But they totally didn't factor in (nor did yours truly) just how badly treating the preseason as a look at the kids they might be bringing up as injury replacements in January or February rather than preparing to go from day 1 would slow up that fast start they expected.

And had they had the October they'd expected, then there's a very good chance Kane is a Sabre by the end of December.

Hopefully, that was a lesson learned - you can't take ANYTHING for granted, because the other guy certainly isn't going to do so.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

Ullmark isn’t even playing in the playoffs. He just had a good defense in front of him, he’s nothing to moan about. 

So your saying he didn't win a Vezina Trophy?