Ryan Johnson, how a coaching staff screwed up by wasting a good a player

[mjd1001]

42 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Pitchforks.

@Pimlach ain't the only one who's got them handy.

This regime will not survive a slow start.

Maybe, but I still don't see it. At least if you do get rid of Adams, he will be replaced with someone who is just like him, why? Pegula.  Pegula wants a 'yes man'. He wants someone that will let Terry be involved. Make Terry feel like he is being heard and has influence on the roster (he very well may have a LOT of influence).  He wants someone to shield him from tough questions from the fans and media. He wants someone to take the blame.  Pegula will convince himself he can eventually make it work with Adams (or a 'clone' of him) rather than bringing in a guy that won't do all of the above for him.

[Doohicksie]

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

You must agree with everything I say, always.  

The bold is going to be hard to do given the recent history of this franchise.   Let's hope they are talking and targeting roster additions together.  

Since he left Ruff has worked for Dallas, NYR, and NJD - he knows players and he is student of the game.   The big question is will they come here?

Laugh emoji response to the first part.  As for the second part, that's what I mean.  It's not that Lindy will make a request and Kevyn makes it happen, it's that Ruff knows the players he wants and will work with Kevyn to get those players, or players like them, to get to his desired roster.

[dudacek]

I don't see Lindy being fired for a slow start.

And if Adams is fired it won't be a hockey decision (regardless of whether it's justified for hockey reasons), it will be a business decision: the paying customer is telling Terry they can't tolerate the status quo and he gives them what they want.

Lindy being given a bigger say under those circumstances is kinda the way Pegula rolls.

It might be similar to the Botterill firing and the "Kevyn, please do what Ralph wants" aftermath.

Kinda depends on whether Terry is a fan of Karmanos, or Karmanos goes down with Adams.

That's why I am pulling so hard for Adams to get this right: firing him just brings us back to 2020, 2017, and 2014 all over again, and we know where that goes.

Rinse and repeat.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Pitchforks.

@Pimlach ain't the only one who's got them handy.

This regime will not survive a slow start.

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Sadly, they might survive a slow start because firing Lindy that quickly would really look bad.  Good luck getting a proven NHL coach after that. 

Firing Adams and promoting Karmanos is possible though.  

I would be shocked if either Lindy or KA is fired during the season.

If they are not better next season then I can see KA being canned but Lindy being retained.

 

[...]

We're already talking about firing Lindy? It's only been a few weeks!

 

[Crusader1969]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm saying that Adams has drafted multiple versions of the same guy (at any position) and that's the team we have. Lots of the same guy all over but he has not filled the holes with the complimentary pieces the team needs. Most of the people we have weren't drafted by Adams, I know that. But he hasn't traded  for what we need either. Byram was mentioned here by others and that's a perfect example. More of the same. 

can you give examples? seems to me that his drafting has been excellent so far in each draft.

[Crusader1969]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

?

What's your point? Pick out the few guys who are different and claim you've proven something? How many tough physical defensive defensemen does this team have? How many solid 2 way forwards? How many actual grinders? Go ahead, take your time. You want to argue let's argue. 

you are moving the goalposts from the original post where you said he keeps drafting the same type of player over and over

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think there is a single other player on the Sabres or in the system that is a version of Zach Benson. 

Yes, this is true. 

The problem is that Benson should NOT stand out like this. We shouldn't be noticing how different he is because the other guys should already be like that. If Benson was on Vegas or Boston or Dallas or Florida.........(insert winning playoff team you prefer) they'd just be saying "we like this kid and his effort, he fits in and plays the right way". He might not even be in some of their playoff lineups but they'd be quite happy with his progress and future role. 

He shouldn't be standing out but everything's relative. 

[dudacek]

28 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

you are moving the goalposts from the original post where you said he keeps drafting the same type of player over and over

I think maybe what he was trying to say is that Adams hasn’t drafted enough big, mean players with his first-round picks?

• Adams could have selected Dylan Holloway instead of Jack Quinn in 2020.
• Mason McTavish instead of Owen Power in 2021
• Zachary L’Heareux instead of Isak Rosen in 2021
• Lian Bichsel, Liam Ohgren and Maverick Lamoureux instead of Savoie, Östlund and Kulich in 2022
• And Colby Barlow instead of Zach Benson last year.

It’s not what he said, but it is fair comment.

[PerreaultForever]

43 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

can you give examples? seems to me that his drafting has been excellent so far in each draft.

His drafting is excellent when his draft picks are on the NHL roster, not before.

Given how high we draft and how many picks he has had it would take great skill to fail miserably. 

Peterka was a home run. No question. Quinn so far isn't any better than several of the picks around him. He's certainly not a steal and may not be the best pick at that time either. Benson looks like a steal. I've said before he was projected top 5, fell due to his size (I guess) and it was a good draft so he did well there. The rest? Some of them look good. Might be good. I'm not praising him or any of them until they play regularly as Sabres. 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes, this is true. 

The problem is that Benson should NOT stand out like this. We shouldn't be noticing how different he is because the other guys should already be like that. If Benson was on Vegas or Boston or Dallas or Florida.........(insert winning playoff team you prefer) they'd just be saying "we like this kid and his effort, he fits in and plays the right way". He might not even be in some of their playoff lineups but they'd be quite happy with his progress and future role. 

He shouldn't be standing out but everything's relative. 

Do you think Quinn and Peterka and Savoie and Östlund - the guys I assume you are saying we have too many of - are guys who don’t hustle and are afraid of getting their nose dirty?

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think maybe what he was trying to say is that Adams hasn’t drafted enough big, mean players with his first-round picks?

• Adams could have selected Dylan Holloway instead of Jack Quinn in 2020.
• Mason McTavish instead of Owen Power in 2021
• Zachary L’Heareux instead of Isak Rosen in 2021
• Lian Bichsel, Liam Ohgren and Maverick Lamoureux instead of Savoie, Östlund and Kulich in 2022
• And Colby Barlow instead of Zach Benson last year.

It’s not what he said, but it is fair comment.

This wasn't directed at me but yes, I liked Holloway more than Quinn. I wouldn't have drafted McTavish over Power (I did like Power as a pick) but I did think McTavish would be very good. I definitely liked L'Heareux over Rosen. Also wanted Lamoureux. There are others. Especially second rounders. Adams does seem to favour speed and scoring prowess over character and size/grit as a whole. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Do you think Quinn and Peterka and Savoie and Östlund - the guys I assume you are saying we have too many of - are guys who don’t hustle and are afraid of getting their nose dirty?

I think Savoie and Östlund are both too small and too slight yes. We will see if they get their noses dirty or not but Savoie was no Benson coming out of camp was he. I am still very undecided on Quinn. I like Peterka but I'd like him even more if he developed his mean side. 

[nfreeman]

FWIW, I think Quinn will be a real star if he can stay healthy.  I agree that he doesn't play with much of an edge but I don't think he'll get intimidated by edgy guys either.  In any case if -- and it's looking like a major if -- he can stay healthy I think he'll end up being one of the best players from that 2020 draft class.

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

. Adams does seem to favour speed and scoring prowess over character and size/grit as a whole. 

Not sure how you are defining character here?

I think of it as guys who show up and don’t quit: and from what I’ve seen that seems to be a defining trait of Quinn, Östlund, Savoie and Benson and one of the primary characteristics Adams seems to value.

Talent and character (as I define it) are what I see as the areas he leans toward first, with speed, size and truculence being secondary.

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think Savoie and Östlund are both too small and too slight yes. We will see if they get their noses dirty or not but Savoie was no Benson coming out of camp was he. I am still very undecided on Quinn. I like Peterka but I'd like him even more if he developed his mean side. 

I’m not sure what the bold is supposed to mean. There were 2 players in Savoie’s entire draft class who did what Benson did this year.

[IKnowPhysics]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

FWIW, I think Quinn will be a real star if he can stay healthy.  I agree that he doesn't play with much of an edge but I don't think he'll get intimidated by edgy guys either.  In any case if -- and it's looking like a major if -- he can stay healthy I think he'll end up being one of the best players from that 2020 draft class.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Over the last two seasons, including his rookie season, Quinn has the highest individual 5v5 G/60 and P/60 of the Sabre forwards behind Skinner/Thompson/Tuch.  His 19P in 27GP this season was a 57 point pace as a sophomore 22 year old.  He also has the highest individual points percentage of Sabre forwards (an insane 84.21% IPP, 7th among league forwards for >300minutes), which means he's contributing on basically everything that's scored when he's on.  He's a future star player.

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

FWIW, I think Quinn will be a real star if he can stay healthy.  I agree that he doesn't play with much of an edge but I don't think he'll get intimidated by edgy guys either.  In any case if -- and it's looking like a major if -- he can stay healthy I think he'll end up being one of the best players from that 2020 draft class.

The Quinn being behind Peterka thing is interesting.

On a per game basis, Jack was as good a goal scorer and a better playmaker.

[LGR4GM]

51 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Quinn so far isn't any better than several of the picks around him. He's certainly not a steal and may not be the best pick at that time either. 

The only player better than Jack Quinn but picked after him thus far in terms of points per game (ppg) is Seth Jarvis (#13). The 3 players directly after Quinn were picked 24th, 10th, and 18th. Quinn currently ranks 4th in his draft class in points per game (minimum 50games) and JJ Peterka is currently 10th in that class (which is great). While we could argue that Jarvis was a better pick, he also has over 100 games on Quinn at this point and plays on a better team. Quinn needs to overcome his injuries and stay healthy though, but at this stage, he's been excellent. 

[LGR4GM]

53 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This wasn't directed at me but yes, I liked Holloway more than Quinn. I wouldn't have drafted McTavish over Power (I did like Power as a pick) but I did think McTavish would be very good. I definitely liked L'Heareux over Rosen. Also wanted Lamoureux. There are others. Especially second rounders. Adams does seem to favour speed and scoring prowess over character and size/grit as a whole. 

Dylan Holloway has 0.202ppg compared to Quinn's 0.558 in almost the same amount of total games. In fact in the 27 games Quinn played this season, he produced the same # of goals and 1 more assist than Holloway has in his 89 game sample. 

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m not sure what the bold is supposed to mean. There were 2 players in Savoie’s entire draft class who did what Benson did this year.

In Savoie's entire draft class, only 5 players have hit the 50 game mark. 3 of them are defenders (Nemec, Korchinski, and Mintyukov) with the only forwards being Slafskovsky and Cooley. There isn't another forward at even 25 games I see. Savoie not being in the NHL should be seen as the rule not the exception. 

Quick shoutout to Matthew Poitras for hitting 33 games and being good. 

[PerreaultForever]

26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Not sure how you are defining character here?

I think of it as guys who show up and don’t quit: and from what I’ve seen that seems to be a defining trait of Quinn, Östlund, Savoie and Benson and one of the primary characteristics Adams seems to value.

Talent and character (as I define it) are what I see as the areas he leans toward first, with speed, size and truculence being secondary.

I’m not sure what the bold is supposed to mean. There were 2 players in Savoie’s entire draft class who did what Benson did this year.

I can't put non NHL guys into the same category as NHL guys the way you do. Until you show it and prove it at an NHL level they mean nothing to me. 

The statement you bolded was simple. Benson and Savoie were both in camp and one made the team and one didn't. 

[PerreaultForever]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The only player better than Jack Quinn but picked after him thus far in terms of points per game (ppg) is Seth Jarvis (#13). The 3 players directly after Quinn were picked 24th, 10th, and 18th. Quinn currently ranks 4th in his draft class in points per game (minimum 50games) and JJ Peterka is currently 10th in that class (which is great). While we could argue that Jarvis was a better pick, he also has over 100 games on Quinn at this point and plays on a better team. Quinn needs to overcome his injuries and stay healthy though, but at this stage, he's been excellent. 

So you define "better" simply as points per game? 

I don't. I look at the complete player and everything they bring. Not just goals and points. 

But I'm not saying Quinn was a bad pick. The issue was who Adams has picked and his draft success and all I was saying on Quinn was he was a high pick and not that hard to make but there's a bunch of guys around that pick that were/are also good picks. Jarvis is one of them. 

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

His drafting is excellent when his draft picks are on the NHL roster, not before.

Given how high we draft and how many picks he has had it would take great skill to fail miserably. 

Peterka was a home run. No question. Quinn so far isn't any better than several of the picks around him. He's certainly not a steal and may not be the best pick at that time either. Benson looks like a steal. I've said before he was projected top 5, fell due to his size (I guess) and it was a good draft so he did well there. The rest? Some of them look good. Might be good. I'm not praising him or any of them until they play regularly as Sabres. 

what the heck does this mean?  are you saying Savoie who just led the WHL in Pts/game isnt excellent

Or Kulich who has 51 goals in the AHL before the age of 20?? 

btw here is the list of goals by prospects under the age of 20 in the AHL

1) Kulich 51 G (119GP)

2) Nylander   32 (75GP)

3) Fiala     29  (70GP)

4) Peterka    28 (7gp)

how is this not excellent?

Edited April 30 by Crusader1969

[LGR4GM]

53 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So you define "better" simply as points per game? 

I don't. I look at the complete player and everything they bring. Not just goals and points. 

But I'm not saying Quinn was a bad pick. The issue was who Adams has picked and his draft success and all I was saying on Quinn was he was a high pick and not that hard to make but there's a bunch of guys around that pick that were/are also good picks. Jarvis is one of them. 

Looking at the complete player, I'd rank Quinn 4th in his draft class. There's nothing on the ice he can't do. 

[xzy89c1]

Should have spent year in Rochester. Nothing was shown by him in his callup to think he will be anything but league average defenseman. As we have Dahlin, Byrum and Power, there is no room for a non physical average defender. We need aggression and defense from the other three defenders. 

Still wish we would have taken draft pick instead of signing him. He does nothing above average and is deficient as defensive player and lacks physicality.