NHL Playoffs (First Round) discussion

[oddoublee]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nah, I'm still hoping Ruff can turn Cozens into a solid NHLer. Cozens needs to get taken back to the compete level he had when he arrived. The workhorse has to get working and add some muscle. I think he can be fixed and if we add a good 2 way 2C I can see him thrive much like Coyle did in Boston on the third line behind Bergeron and Krejci. When that 2C (like Lindholm) ages out Cozens will maybe actually be ready to ascend. 

If you have a better idea on a 2C (one who might be obtainable) by all means name him. I just think you have to seize the opportunity if it presents itself. 

The reality is I doubt Lindholm would want to sign with Buffalo anyway, so it's moot, but one has to dream at this point. 

Lindholm is the ideal 2C this team could use. Strong 2 way player. Faceoffs in d zone. Scoring touch? 30 years old...all I hear is that means you can get 3 solid years out of him at minimum.

Only downside is, he will probably cost 8 million...9.5 for sabres...we probably can't afford him without moving moose and skinner

[SwampD]

8 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

The Panthers are everything I wish the Sabres were.  They are so fun to watch. It would be funny if in addition to ROR & Eichel, this year Reinhart gets a cup. 

I hope he and Okposo get the Cup. They’re my routing interest in these playoffs. Them or Vegas.

When I think of what a GD abomination the Tank was I still get so ***** mad. The very idea of it was just so ***** stupid.

[Doohicksie]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Huh? Sabres could? How?

1. Pressure the puck when the other team has it or when it's loose.
2. Play sound positional defense.
3. Counterstrike when the opportunity arises.
4. Crash the freakin' net.

I think Granato's system didn't do step 1 nearly enough, but when they did they looked very good.

1 hour ago, oddoublee said:

moose

You mean Samuelsson?

[LGR4GM]

48 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I hope he and Okposo get the Cup. They’re my routing interest in these playoffs. Them or Vegas.

When I think of what a GD abomination the Tank was I still get so ***** mad. The very idea of it was just so ***** stupid.

So in one sentence you are actively rooting for tank fruit #1, a player who put up 50g and is one of the best pp forwards in the league. Then in the final sentence you mention a team that took tank fruit #2 and won the cup last year. 

The tanked worked to perfection, the rebuild was utter trash and Kane and Bogo's nose candy loving ***** and GMTM's craptastic drafting are directly responsible. In fact the Sabres are one of the worst drafting teams from 2009-2017, when we took vaunted first round talents like... Armia, Kassian, Grigorenko, Pysyk, Nylander. In that time the only notable non first round picks taken are Foligno, Compher (traded), McNabb (traded), McCabe, Olofsson, and Hagel (didn't even f-ing sign him). It is why just now we are starting to see improvements, the 2018-2020 draft classes were better and are entering their lower primes. You got Cozens, Quinn, JJP, and Ryan Johnson from just 11 picks. In 2025 or 2026 we will see another jump depending on who we keep because of good drafting. 2021 already has Power, with Novikov making a push and Rosen at least looking like a 3rd liner or tradable asset. 2022 has Savoie, Östlund, and Kulich in it, all 3 are on track to be NHL guys and I would add in Komarov as a possible guy. What is interesting is these 2 Adams drafts, I think show some flaws which brings us to 2023... Benson, Strbak, Wahlberg all look like they have possible NHL futures which are your first 3 picks from that draft. Buffalo seems to have really figured out how to maximize the first 3 rounds (screw you Leinonen pick that should have been Warren) and if they are getting 2 useful NHL players per draft we are in good shape. 

Buffalo finally is getting to the log jam, where prospects have to fight their way up through the AHL until they are 21, 22, 23 as opposed to maybe spending their 20yr old season there and then BAM! NHL guaranteed. Benson might be the last of the "well we have a spot and here's a kid with skill so..." that we see for awhile. It is why I vehemently oppose Kulich or Östlund, or even Savoie being considered for the roster in 2024, you need to add vets that make that almost impossible. The good news is that the top 6 is solidified. JJP - Tage - Tuch and Skinner/Benson - Cozens - Quinn is basically set in stone and there isn't a prospect coming to overtake any of those wingers and ftr, I love Savoie. Now anyone else we draft has to overtake them, Skinner will be the first as Benson either this season or next will surpass him. 

Hate the tank, it is the low hanging fruit, but the idea of selling off assets to draft as high as possible has lots of merit around the league from Pittsburgh to even a team like Florida. The issue is selling the assets is easy, building is hard. One last thing, everyone seems to forget that in 2012 and 2013, the sabres were bad. It wasn't like we were a good and then had this stupid idea. In fact think about it, by 2014, we hadn't won a playoff series since 2007. I won't convince you the tank wasn't bad, but the tank was a symptom of a larger problem that existed for almost all of Regier's time and certainly all of dipshit GMTMs time. 

I will always disagree with the majority here about the tank because I believe the goal of the tank was to acquire elite talent that the team was incapable of drafting otherwise (a problem Detroit is having because of how the lottery played out). I believe the tank achieved that objective but unfortunately Murray and Botterill were unable to build a team after that. I could see an argument that that was a fault of the tank but I think it was more to do with Murray being terrible and Botterill just never really getting what he needed. I suppose it doesn't matter now. 

[oddoublee]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

1. Pressure the puck when the other team has it or when it's loose.
2. Play sound positional defense.
3. Counterstrike when the opportunity arises.
4. Crash the freakin' net.

I think Granato's system didn't do step 1 nearly enough, but when they did they looked very good.

You mean Samuelsson?

yes

[SwampD]

31 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So in one sentence you are actively rooting for tank fruit #1, a player who put up 50g and is one of the best pp forwards in the league. Then in the final sentence you mention a team that took tank fruit #2 and won the cup last year. 

The tanked worked to perfection, the rebuild was utter trash and Kane and Bogo's nose candy loving ***** and GMTM's craptastic drafting are directly responsible. In fact the Sabres are one of the worst drafting teams from 2009-2017, when we took vaunted first round talents like... Armia, Kassian, Grigorenko, Pysyk, Nylander. In that time the only notable non first round picks taken are Foligno, Compher (traded), McNabb (traded), McCabe, Olofsson, and Hagel (didn't even f-ing sign him). It is why just now we are starting to see improvements, the 2018-2020 draft classes were better and are entering their lower primes. You got Cozens, Quinn, JJP, and Ryan Johnson from just 11 picks. In 2025 or 2026 we will see another jump depending on who we keep because of good drafting. 2021 already has Power, with Novikov making a push and Rosen at least looking like a 3rd liner or tradable asset. 2022 has Savoie, Östlund, and Kulich in it, all 3 are on track to be NHL guys and I would add in Komarov as a possible guy. What is interesting is these 2 Adams drafts, I think show some flaws which brings us to 2023... Benson, Strbak, Wahlberg all look like they have possible NHL futures which are your first 3 picks from that draft. Buffalo seems to have really figured out how to maximize the first 3 rounds (screw you Leinonen pick that should have been Warren) and if they are getting 2 useful NHL players per draft we are in good shape. 

Buffalo finally is getting to the log jam, where prospects have to fight their way up through the AHL until they are 21, 22, 23 as opposed to maybe spending their 20yr old season there and then BAM! NHL guaranteed. Benson might be the last of the "well we have a spot and here's a kid with skill so..." that we see for awhile. It is why I vehemently oppose Kulich or Östlund, or even Savoie being considered for the roster in 2024, you need to add vets that make that almost impossible. The good news is that the top 6 is solidified. JJP - Tage - Tuch and Skinner/Benson - Cozens - Quinn is basically set in stone and there isn't a prospect coming to overtake any of those wingers and ftr, I love Savoie. Now anyone else we draft has to overtake them, Skinner will be the first as Benson either this season or next will surpass him. 

Hate the tank, it is the low hanging fruit, but the idea of selling off assets to draft as high as possible has lots of merit around the league from Pittsburgh to even a team like Florida. The issue is selling the assets is easy, building is hard. One last thing, everyone seems to forget that in 2012 and 2013, the sabres were bad. It wasn't like we were a good and then had this stupid idea. In fact think about it, by 2014, we hadn't won a playoff series since 2007. I won't convince you the tank wasn't bad, but the tank was a symptom of a larger problem that existed for almost all of Regier's time and certainly all of dipshit GMTMs time. 

I will always disagree with the majority here about the tank because I believe the goal of the tank was to acquire elite talent that the team was incapable of drafting otherwise (a problem Detroit is having because of how the lottery played out). I believe the tank achieved that objective but unfortunately Murray and Botterill were unable to build a team after that. I could see an argument that that was a fault of the tank but I think it was more to do with Murray being terrible and Botterill just never really getting what he needed. I suppose it doesn't matter now. 

Sure. Hope that helps you sleep at night.

[bob_sauve28]

Florida looks like such a rough tough talented team. I can't imagine our Sabres playing like that now. We are not small, but not tough like that at all.

[Archie Lee]

41 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So in one sentence you are actively rooting for tank fruit #1, a player who put up 50g and is one of the best pp forwards in the league. Then in the final sentence you mention a team that took tank fruit #2 and won the cup last year. 

The tanked worked to perfection, the rebuild was utter trash and Kane and Bogo's nose candy loving ***** and GMTM's craptastic drafting are directly responsible. In fact the Sabres are one of the worst drafting teams from 2009-2017, when we took vaunted first round talents like... Armia, Kassian, Grigorenko, Pysyk, Nylander. In that time the only notable non first round picks taken are Foligno, Compher (traded), McNabb (traded), McCabe, Olofsson, and Hagel (didn't even f-ing sign him). It is why just now we are starting to see improvements, the 2018-2020 draft classes were better and are entering their lower primes. You got Cozens, Quinn, JJP, and Ryan Johnson from just 11 picks. In 2025 or 2026 we will see another jump depending on who we keep because of good drafting. 2021 already has Power, with Novikov making a push and Rosen at least looking like a 3rd liner or tradable asset. 2022 has Savoie, Östlund, and Kulich in it, all 3 are on track to be NHL guys and I would add in Komarov as a possible guy. What is interesting is these 2 Adams drafts, I think show some flaws which brings us to 2023... Benson, Strbak, Wahlberg all look like they have possible NHL futures which are your first 3 picks from that draft. Buffalo seems to have really figured out how to maximize the first 3 rounds (screw you Leinonen pick that should have been Warren) and if they are getting 2 useful NHL players per draft we are in good shape. 

Buffalo finally is getting to the log jam, where prospects have to fight their way up through the AHL until they are 21, 22, 23 as opposed to maybe spending their 20yr old season there and then BAM! NHL guaranteed. Benson might be the last of the "well we have a spot and here's a kid with skill so..." that we see for awhile. It is why I vehemently oppose Kulich or Östlund, or even Savoie being considered for the roster in 2024, you need to add vets that make that almost impossible. The good news is that the top 6 is solidified. JJP - Tage - Tuch and Skinner/Benson - Cozens - Quinn is basically set in stone and there isn't a prospect coming to overtake any of those wingers and ftr, I love Savoie. Now anyone else we draft has to overtake them, Skinner will be the first as Benson either this season or next will surpass him. 

Hate the tank, it is the low hanging fruit, but the idea of selling off assets to draft as high as possible has lots of merit around the league from Pittsburgh to even a team like Florida. The issue is selling the assets is easy, building is hard. One last thing, everyone seems to forget that in 2012 and 2013, the sabres were bad. It wasn't like we were a good and then had this stupid idea. In fact think about it, by 2014, we hadn't won a playoff series since 2007. I won't convince you the tank wasn't bad, but the tank was a symptom of a larger problem that existed for almost all of Regier's time and certainly all of dipshit GMTMs time. 

I will always disagree with the majority here about the tank because I believe the goal of the tank was to acquire elite talent that the team was incapable of drafting otherwise (a problem Detroit is having because of how the lottery played out). I believe the tank achieved that objective but unfortunately Murray and Botterill were unable to build a team after that. I could see an argument that that was a fault of the tank but I think it was more to do with Murray being terrible and Botterill just never really getting what he needed. I suppose it doesn't matter now. 

You make many good points that I agree with. I would argue that there is a difference between “A” tank (the concept of tanking) and “THE” tank (the tank that we did). There was no appetite among any group associated with the Sabres (ownership, management, fans) to manage the tank in a way that we would now describe as proper (I don’t doubt you may have felt different at the time, but I would not say your view was representative of how fans felt in general). The expectation was that we would be terrible for 2 years, get a good player in 2014 and then McEichel in 2015 and then be back in the playoffs and on our way to contending within another year or two. There was never any intention, at least after Regier was fired, to manage the tank and rebuild “properly”.

In other words, I don’t think “THE” tank can be separated from the failed rebuild.

Note: you are, of course, free to separate them if you see it otherwise.  I’m not speaking for anyone but myself, but I don’t see what happened from June 2015 to June/July 2018 as being separate from “THE” tank. 

 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, oddoublee said:

yes

Around these parts we call him Mule or Muel (the spelling pulled out of his last name).

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Florida looks like such a rough tough talented team. I can't imagine our Sabres playing like that now. We are not small, but not tough like that at all.

Let's see how they play after a training camp under Ruff.

And it isn't necessarily rough/tough that the team needs.  It's simply dogging the puck.  You know, the thing that Benson does really well; Quinn too, when he puts his mind to it.  I think they have the size and speed to do that... they just need to do it.

Regardless of what Lindy's plans are, I hope he gives each player some direction on what he wants to see in their game at the end of the summer.  (more motor, more strength, etc.)

Edited April 30 by Doohickie

[SwampD]

15 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Around these parts we call him Mule or Muel (the spelling pulled out of his last name).

Let's see how they play after a training camp under Ruff.

And it isn't necessarily rough/tough that the team needs.  It's simply dogging the puck.  You know, the thing that Benson does really well; Quinn too, when he puts his mind to it.  I think they have the size and speed to do that... they just need to do it.

Regardless of what Lindy's plans are, I hope he gives each player some direction on what he wants to see in their game at the end of the summer.  (more motor, more strength, etc.)

I want to see a video of Lindy whacking Tage in the head a la Luke Adam. I think he needs it. Tage is my biggest question mark for next season.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

Sure. Hope that helps you sleep at night.

What a dick response. 

[Doohicksie]

I see Granato as a carrot guy.  He was always positive.  No stick though.  I think at the NHL level you need both the carrot and the stick at times and Lindy knows how to do that.  I hope.

[Getpucksdeep]

Is Matthews playing tonight? This series and Toronto's struggles are fantastic entertainment.  I don't want it to end.  And whoever wins will be my preferred Eastern Conference winner.

[bob_sauve28]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What a dick response. 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

What a dick response. 

 

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So in one sentence you are actively rooting for tank fruit #1, a player who put up 50g and is one of the best pp forwards in the league. Then in the final sentence you mention a team that took tank fruit #2 and won the cup last year. 

The tanked worked to perfection, the rebuild was utter trash and Kane and Bogo's nose candy loving ***** and GMTM's craptastic drafting are directly responsible. In fact the Sabres are one of the worst drafting teams from 2009-2017, when we took vaunted first round talents like... Armia, Kassian, Grigorenko, Pysyk, Nylander. In that time the only notable non first round picks taken are Foligno, Compher (traded), McNabb (traded), McCabe, Olofsson, and Hagel (didn't even f-ing sign him). It is why just now we are starting to see improvements, the 2018-2020 draft classes were better and are entering their lower primes. You got Cozens, Quinn, JJP, and Ryan Johnson from just 11 picks. In 2025 or 2026 we will see another jump depending on who we keep because of good drafting. 2021 already has Power, with Novikov making a push and Rosen at least looking like a 3rd liner or tradable asset. 2022 has Savoie, Östlund, and Kulich in it, all 3 are on track to be NHL guys and I would add in Komarov as a possible guy. What is interesting is these 2 Adams drafts, I think show some flaws which brings us to 2023... Benson, Strbak, Wahlberg all look like they have possible NHL futures which are your first 3 picks from that draft. Buffalo seems to have really figured out how to maximize the first 3 rounds (screw you Leinonen pick that should have been Warren) and if they are getting 2 useful NHL players per draft we are in good shape. 

Buffalo finally is getting to the log jam, where prospects have to fight their way up through the AHL until they are 21, 22, 23 as opposed to maybe spending their 20yr old season there and then BAM! NHL guaranteed. Benson might be the last of the "well we have a spot and here's a kid with skill so..." that we see for awhile. It is why I vehemently oppose Kulich or Östlund, or even Savoie being considered for the roster in 2024, you need to add vets that make that almost impossible. The good news is that the top 6 is solidified. JJP - Tage - Tuch and Skinner/Benson - Cozens - Quinn is basically set in stone and there isn't a prospect coming to overtake any of those wingers and ftr, I love Savoie. Now anyone else we draft has to overtake them, Skinner will be the first as Benson either this season or next will surpass him. 

Hate the tank, it is the low hanging fruit, but the idea of selling off assets to draft as high as possible has lots of merit around the league from Pittsburgh to even a team like Florida. The issue is selling the assets is easy, building is hard. One last thing, everyone seems to forget that in 2012 and 2013, the sabres were bad. It wasn't like we were a good and then had this stupid idea. In fact think about it, by 2014, we hadn't won a playoff series since 2007. I won't convince you the tank wasn't bad, but the tank was a symptom of a larger problem that existed for almost all of Regier's time and certainly all of dipshit GMTMs time. 

I will always disagree with the majority here about the tank because I believe the goal of the tank was to acquire elite talent that the team was incapable of drafting otherwise (a problem Detroit is having because of how the lottery played out). I believe the tank achieved that objective but unfortunately Murray and Botterill were unable to build a team after that. I could see an argument that that was a fault of the tank but I think it was more to do with Murray being terrible and Botterill just never really getting what he needed. I suppose it doesn't matter now. 

Saying the tank worked to perfection is like saying that the attack on Pearl Harbor was an absolute success.

You then go on to say that we are finally getting to the log jam where prospects have to fight to get to the NHL club. Why didn’t we just start there?! The Tank was pointless, and it is ridiculous to think that it was a viable path to building a team. You keep saying that the tank was the only way we could acquire the top end talent we were incapable of getting otherwise. I’m calling BS as you, yourself, have had dissertations on this site about how there is talent available everywhere in the draft.

All the things you mention in your post about where we are now as positives have nothing to do with the Tank and came in spite of it, not because of it. It was ***** stupid from the get go and no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change my mind. I’m glad you can look back on it fondly.

 

[oddoublee]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Around these parts we call him Mule or Muel (the spelling pulled out of his last name).

Let's see how they play after a training camp under Ruff.

And it isn't necessarily rough/tough that the team needs.  It's simply dogging the puck.  You know, the thing that Benson does really well; Quinn too, when he puts his mind to it.  I think they have the size and speed to do that... they just need to do it.

Regardless of what Lindy's plans are, I hope he gives each player some direction on what he wants to see in their game at the end of the summer.  (more motor, more strength, etc.)

you will get moose and like it!

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, oddoublee said:

Lindholm is the ideal 2C this team could use. Strong 2 way player. Faceoffs in d zone. Scoring touch? 30 years old...all I hear is that means you can get 3 solid years out of him at minimum.

Only downside is, he will probably cost 8 million...9.5 for sabres...we probably can't afford him without moving moose and skinner

Skinner needs to be gone. We can afford him. Somebody might have to go at some point but that's a new reality I'm happy to deal with rather than discussing draft lotteries every year. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Doohickie said:

1. Pressure the puck when the other team has it or when it's loose.
2. Play sound positional defense.
3. Counterstrike when the opportunity arises.
4. Crash the freakin' net.

I think Granato's system didn't do step 1 nearly enough, but when they did they looked very good.

Okay so when you say the Sabres "can" you really mean you wish they would, because they don't do any of those 4 things (at least not regularly). 

Given the youth, size, and speed of this team I think they could be developed into a strong forecheck team like Florida, but only if these players respond and so far they've shown little willingness to do so (aside from Benson and a couple others at times). The current team has a long way to go to get to the 4 things you mention.

At this point we don't really know for sure if Granato was asking them to do these things and they just weren't, or weren't able, or if he didn't ask them to do these things and was just a bad coach. We really don't know. This is why I am happy with the return of Ruff. We know he will ask them to do these things and I am 100% sure that if they do not, and do not respond to Lindy, then they are a pile of garbage and you might as well burn the whole thing down.

I don't think that's the case. I think Ruff will fix them. Maybe not get them all the way, but right the ship and get it headed in the right direction.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, oddoublee said:

you will get moose and like it!

I'll meet you halfway:  Mousse.

[Doohicksie]

22 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

At this point we don't really know for sure if Granato was asking them to do these things and they just weren't, or weren't able, or if he didn't ask them to do these things and was just a bad coach. We really don't know. This is why I am happy with the return of Ruff. We know he will ask them to do these things and I am 100% sure that if they do not, and do not respond to Lindy, then they are a pile of garbage and you might as well burn the whole thing down.

They say you play the way you practice, and the general consensus on this forum is that Donny wasn't pushing them hard in practice, which means they weren't used to being pushed hard and didn't do it consistently in games.  I tend to agree that I hope Lindy can whip 'em into shape.

[oddoublee]

23 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I'll meet you halfway:  Mousse.

who am i kidding - i submit to the board. muel it is. 

[Weave]

2 hours ago, oddoublee said:

who am i kidding - i submit to the board. muel it is. 

[Brawndo]

Auston Matthews is out tonight for the Leafs 

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Auston Matthews is out tonight for the Leafs 

tummy ache. what can you do 🙂

 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

 

Saying the tank worked to perfection is like saying that the attack on Pearl Harbor was an absolute success.

You then go on to say that we are finally getting to the log jam where prospects have to fight to get to the NHL club. Why didn’t we just start there?! The Tank was pointless, and it is ridiculous to think that it was a viable path to building a team. You keep saying that the tank was the only way we could acquire the top end talent we were incapable of getting otherwise. I’m calling BS as you, yourself, have had dissertations on this site about how there is talent available everywhere in the draft.

All the things you mention in your post about where we are now as positives have nothing to do with the Tank and came in spite of it, not because of it. It was ***** stupid from the get go and no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change my mind. I’m glad you can look back on it fondly.

 

Blocking you. I don't deserve this type of response.