Way too early opening night line-up

[SabreFinn]

4 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

And get a coach 

Oh, right. An assistant coach as headcoach? Ellis? 🤣

[Crusader1969]

26 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So if we had removed Jeff skinner last season, we’d have been better?

a top goal scorer in the league last year and you are claiming him to be a sizeable! net negative. To the tune of almost single handedly turning franchises around for the worse, which we know players in the nhl don’t do (nor for the better).

something doesn’t jive. He either provided a ton of positive value last year or didn’t. There was a magical barrier stopping us from seizing one final point cause Jeff Skinner was here?

none of it makes sense 

last year? He played on the top line and was good.  This season, not so good and then dropped to the 3rd line where he has become invisible.

If the Sabres still needed a 1st line LW I would be ok with him but they dont need it and I think he has been passed by Benson on the depth chart for line 2.

So i will go back to my original post that you don't want Skinner on the 3rd line. You need to build a balanced team and he isn't a balanced player at all

last question, do you have any concern that the oldest forward on the team only plays offense? What kind of example does that set for the young players? 

 

8 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

Oh, right. An assistant coach as headcoach? Ellis? 🤣

OMG Please !!! lol

[Pimlach]

11 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Interesting that Skinner played approx 30% of his 5v5 time with Mitts  this season putting up  20 of his 33 even strength points during this time.  
 

seemed him and Mitts had good chemistry and may explain why skinners scoring has nose dived since around the time Mitts was traded 

It looked to me that Mitts was the one center that could work with anyone.  

Can we stop trading 25 year old players just entering their prime?   Meanwhile we have 21 year old Byram who is very similar to Power - still in his early development phase - he is a talent but not a savvy veteran defender that could help stabilize things.  

Byram might turn out to be very good, but the trade created a big hole for now that needs to be addressed, and we added a player that is very much like several others we already have.   

Diversity of skills is not something that Adams seems to be unaware of, or is just not too concerned with.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Pretty sure Rod did not coach Jeff.  He started after they traded him.  Possible he said I don’t want a floater on my team after looking at tape, but the Hurricanes made a lot of moves in an attempt to play a different style of hockey.  Laying their failure at the feet of Skinny is a bit much.  The guy can be a net negative, but his skill set is top three and last year on a poor defensive team was a +15.  
 

@Crusader1969 In answer to your question, placing Skinner on the third line with defensively responsible players who can play a two way game could yield a lot better results than we have seen in years.  In terms of LW, I think Quinn has the highest potential with goal scoring and plays a better defensive game.  Similarly JJP is ascending so I plug him on FL2.  The third line does not have to be a no skill/checking line.  Better match ups and opportunities of possession for Skinner if facing an Islanders “identity line”.  Plus, unless the cost to extricate Jeff is low (2nd round) I would rather use picks and prospects to acquire talent and not to hope “addition by subtraction” works.  Skinner is not Diggs. 

No, I just can't agree with this. I am not following football really but I think I would say yes, he is Diggs. Antonio Brown maybe to go back a bit to when I followed it more. I firmly believe his locker room presence is a problem and he has a negative influence on the youngsters coming in. You could maybe limit that if half your locker room was Foligno type work ethic veterans and pros but in a room filled with kids it's a huge problem. 

This has always been the problem with the Sabres imo. They tanked but they did not build the culture first. They went for the star power and the talent but without the culture and thus the (lack of) results. The idea now of building a culture collectively together is just dumbass imo. 

On the Skinner Carolina thing that's all chicken egg and doesn't really matter. Thing is they changed the culture and brought in a coach who knows how things need to be to win and part of that culture change involved getting rid of Skinner. If Adams is in fact trying to follow the Carolina model (as has been suggested in the past) he's getting it quite wrong. 

[SABRES 0311]

Watching the game now and at the end of the second period. I don’t know what the final score is but since you’ve all been waiting for my qualified analysis.

OP and Dahlin play well together. OP had a good game overall. If he continues into next season I’ll happily be proven wrong.

TNT is not a number one center right now IMO. He is quickly trendy that way though. He has quietly learned how to protect the puck with his body very well. Looks increasingly difficult for defenders to separate from the puck.

Peterka is a bonafide 1W. Good hands, good speed, good offensive IQ. Doesn’t seem to be a defensive liability. 

Rousek I expect will make the team next year. Nothing flashy about his game and could be a decent bottom six guy. Third liner?

When Benson learns how to finish he’s gonna be an offensive threat. No problem keeping him with Cozens. Two guys with tenacity and scoring capability.

Cozens, decent 2C, probably would make a really good 3C. He and Benson could hound a team’s first line in a defensive role with scoring potential. Maybe Rousek on the other wing?

Quinn is a 2W, no question. A veteran 2C would be good for his development and the team’s production. Slightly less refined than Peterka due to injuries/missed time. Good offensive IQ but not as confident.

Krebs is a lifetime 4C. Theoretically he, Girgs, and Greenway could bring the physical aspect with Krebs and Greenway capable of playing up as needed.

Tuch, flashes of brilliance mixed with big wide circles. Keep on the second line with Quinn and a vet 2C next year. 
 

Peterka Thompson TBD

Quinn TBD Tuch

Benson Cozens Rousek?

Greenway Kreb Girgs

Dahlin Power

Byram Muel

Clufton Johnson

Bryson???

UPL

Levi

The 1RW can be an average top six guy. Doesn’t have to break the bank. 

2C will cost. I bet they go with Cozens and find a 3C though. More cost effective I guess. TBH that’s probably the better scenario.

Whatever prospects survive the summer can challenge for bottom six roles. Lookout Krebs, Girgs, Rousek, and even Benson.

In total, find a top six RW and a 3C. As long as they are aren’t duds I’d be happy if they were the only moves.

Oh yeah, whole new coaching staff!

Edited April 10 by SABRES 0311

[LGR4GM]

On 4/8/2024 at 7:52 PM, Crusader1969 said:

Now that we are on to next year ( once again before the playoffs start), it's time to project the lineup for opening night 24/25

this is my best guess of what the lineup will look like, trying to be somewhat realist

Top 6 - pretty well write this in ink

JJP              Tage.         Tuch
Benson        Cozens    Quinn

Bottom 6

Greenway      Jenner   Savoie 
Girgs.           Kulich         Carrier

3rd line centre :

Option 1 - Jenner is going to be expensive but if anyone can pay the price it's the Sabres.   Krebs and a 1st round pick may entice the rebuilding bluejackets 

Option 2 Sean Monahan - a UFA who can play 2 way game and win faceoffs. 

4th Line 
UFA Carrier will bring the energy and physical play we all crave 

Will have to decide to play either ease Kulich in a 4th line role or keep him in Roch 1 more season   What I do know , the guy will be ready for whatever the Sabres ask 

if they prefer Kulich not playing on the 4th line, then they will dip once again in the UFA market for a guy like Colin Blackwell 

13th Skinner
14th  Robinson

Dahlin.     Byrum 
Power.    Samuelsson
Johnson    Clifton 

don't think we will see a top 4 RHD brought in   Just so few out there that fit the bill and the price of one will be too high

7 - UFA signing that many of us have never heard of 

UPL
Levi

Levi will take Amerks deep into the playoffs proving he is too good for the AHL   

Probably not enough change for a lot of you on the ice but I do predict a complete overhaul of the coaching staff 

Plus, Trading for Boone Jenner will be costly and use up a lot of their trade capital 

 

That isn't a playoffs team. 

[Flashsabre]

23 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Pretty sure Rod did not coach Jeff.  He started after they traded him.  Possible he said I don’t want a floater on my team after looking at tape, but the Hurricanes made a lot of moves in an attempt to play a different style of hockey.  Laying their failure at the feet of Skinny is a bit much.  The guy can be a net negative, but his skill set is top three and last year on a poor defensive team was a +15.  
 

@Crusader1969 In answer to your question, placing Skinner on the third line with defensively responsible players who can play a two way game could yield a lot better results than we have seen in years.  In terms of LW, I think Quinn has the highest potential with goal scoring and plays a better defensive game.  Similarly JJP is ascending so I plug him on FL2.  The third line does not have to be a no skill/checking line.  Better match ups and opportunities of possession for Skinner if facing an Islanders “identity line”.  Plus, unless the cost to extricate Jeff is low (2nd round) I would rather use picks and prospects to acquire talent and not to hope “addition by subtraction” works.  Skinner is not Diggs. 

Rod was the one that demanded Skinner be traded. After the trade he said that you can’t win with players like Skinner who only play the way he does.  He wasn’t wrong.

[LGR4GM]

There should be no rookie players in the opening night roster for the 2024 Sabres. Everyone stays in jrs or Rochester and those spots are filled by actual capable veteran players. So no Savoie, Kulich, Novikov, Rosen. 

[Drag0nDan]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There should be no rookie players in the opening night roster for the 2024 Sabres. Everyone stays in jrs or Rochester and those spots are filled by actual capable veteran players. So no Savoie, Kulich, Novikov, Rosen. 

I think I'm OK with one.  Ideally they... play their way onto the roster though.  

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There should be no rookie players in the opening night roster for the 2024 Sabres. Everyone stays in jrs or Rochester and those spots are filled by actual capable veteran players. So no Savoie, Kulich, Novikov, Rosen. 

Say Kulich is better than Krebs ?  Don't you want the best players to open the season ?

[Crusader1969]

12 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Watching the game now and at the end of the second period. I don’t know what the final score is but since you’ve all been waiting for my qualified analysis.

OP and Dahlin play well together. OP had a good game overall. If he continues into next season I’ll happily be proven wrong.

TNT is not a number one center right now IMO. He is quickly trendy that way though. He has quietly learned how to protect the puck with his body very well. Looks increasingly difficult for defenders to separate from the puck.

Peterka is a bonafide 1W. Good hands, good speed, good offensive IQ. Doesn’t seem to be a defensive liability. 

Rousek I expect will make the team next year. Nothing flashy about his game and could be a decent bottom six guy. Third liner?

When Benson learns how to finish he’s gonna be an offensive threat. No problem keeping him with Cozens. Two guys with tenacity and scoring capability.

Cozens, decent 2C, probably would make a really good 3C. He and Benson could hound a team’s first line in a defensive role with scoring potential. Maybe Rousek on the other wing?

Quinn is a 2W, no question. A veteran 2C would be good for his development and the team’s production. Slightly less refined than Peterka due to injuries/missed time. Good offensive IQ but not as confident.

Krebs is a lifetime 4C. Theoretically he, Girgs, and Greenway could bring the physical aspect with Krebs and Greenway capable of playing up as needed.

Tuch, flashes of brilliance mixed with big wide circles. Keep on the second line with Quinn and a vet 2C next year. 
 

Peterka Thompson TBD

Quinn TBD Tuch

Benson Cozens Rousek?

Greenway Kreb Girgs

Dahlin Power

Byram Muel

Clufton Johnson

Bryson???

UPL

Levi

The 1RW can be an average top six guy. Doesn’t have to break the bank. 

2C will cost. I bet they go with Cozens and find a 3C though. More cost effective I guess. TBH that’s probably the better scenario.

Whatever prospects survive the summer can challenge for bottom six roles. Lookout Krebs, Girgs, Rousek, and even Benson.

In total, find a top six RW and a 3C. As long as they are aren’t duds I’d be happy if they were the only moves.

Oh yeah, whole new coaching staff!

They are paying Cozens to be 2nd line centre.  If they wanted they could have kept Mitts but they traded him rather than pay. 
 

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

That isn't a playoffs team. 

Tell me who the coach is 

[mjd1001]

I think it was the March 7nd game against Vegas (a 7-2 win) that optimism for this team possibly making a run at the playoffs hit a peak.  They had just won their 5th in 6 games (wins over Carolina, Tampa, and Vegas of course), the only loss being a 1 goal loss to Florida in Florida, and they passed the .500 point percentage for the first time in a long time.

Since then, things haven't gone well.  Who exactly showed up and who didn't since then during the stretch to the playoffs, that obviously failed:

-Tage showed up. 11 goals, 20 points, +11 in 17 games (53 goal, 96 point, +53 pace projected over 82 games)

-Peterka, 9 goals in 18 games.

-Tuch, 18 points in 18 games.

Who didn't?

Cozens.  1 goal. 5 points.  -3. In 18 games.

I get it, he's 23.  But is risky to rely on Cozens as your #2 center next year.

[Crusader1969]

27 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I think it was the March 7nd game against Vegas (a 7-2 win) that optimism for this team possibly making a run at the playoffs hit a peak.  They had just won their 5th in 6 games (wins over Carolina, Tampa, and Vegas of course), the only loss being a 1 goal loss to Florida in Florida, and they passed the .500 point percentage for the first time in a long time.

Since then, things haven't gone well.  Who exactly showed up and who didn't since then during the stretch to the playoffs, that obviously failed:

-Tage showed up. 11 goals, 20 points, +11 in 17 games (53 goal, 96 point, +53 pace projected over 82 games)

-Peterka, 9 goals in 18 games.

-Tuch, 18 points in 18 games.

Who didn't?

Cozens.  1 goal. 5 points.  -3. In 18 games.

I get it, he's 23.  But is risky to rely on Cozens as your #2 center next year.

Tell me about Skinners numbers over that time ? 

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

I think I'm OK with one.  Ideally they... play their way onto the roster though.  

No, there should be no chance in hell that adams allows that possibility. Get veterans. 

6 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Say Kulich is better than Krebs ?  Don't you want the best players to open the season ?

I want Krebs replaced then by a better veteran. Trade if needed. 

[mjd1001]

13 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Tell me about Skinners numbers over that time ? 

4 goals and 2 assists over the same period of time for Skinner.  Not good at all, for sure someone in the category of not 'stepping up' when the team needed him. But Skinner's 4 goals in 18 games over that time (18 goal pace, 1.16 goals per 60) is actually a LOT more productive than Cozens ((5 goal pace, 0.26 goals per 60) or Krebs (5 goal pace, 0.30 goals per 60).

Either way, take that moment (March 3) where they were in the best position all year as far as making the playoffs (other than the start of the season), playing their very best all year....where the next month was going to be the most critical month of upcoming games for this team wanting to make the playoffs (again, since the beginning of the year), and Thompson, Tuch, Peterka, Dahlin....they really stepped up and produced in that critical stretch.    Skinner did not, but Krebs and Cousins REALLY did not. 1 goal in 18 games, hardly any assists, being overall minus player....they basically disappeared when the team need players to step up.

[mjd1001]

12 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No, there should be no chance in hell that adams allows that possibility. Get veterans. 

I want Krebs replaced then by a better veteran. Trade if needed. 

Agree.  I guess you can see if Krebs 'magically changes' over the offseason and becomes a guy who can produce 10-15 goals and 40 points next year.  I'm not thinking that can happen though, but it might?   But even if it does, I don't think you want to assume that will happen.  Bring in a veteran guy that has a history of at least decent production.  If Krebs transforms into something special, you can make room for him,but you need an additional legit center in here that isn't currently on the roster or in Rochester.

[inkman]

18 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Say Kulich is better than Krebs ?  Don't you want the best players to open the season ?

Kulich has primarily played wing in Rochester 

[Weave]

26 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

4 goals and 2 assists over the same period of time for Skinner.  Not good at all, for sure someone in the category of not 'stepping up' when the team needed him. But Skinner's 4 goals in 18 games over that time (18 goal pace, 1.16 goals per 60) is actually a LOT more productive than Cozens ((5 goal pace, 0.26 goals per 60) or Krebs (5 goal pace, 0.30 goals per 60).

Either way, take that moment (March 3) where they were in the best position all year as far as making the playoffs (other than the start of the season), playing their very best all year....where the next month was going to be the most critical month of upcoming games for this team wanting to make the playoffs (again, since the beginning of the year), and Thompson, Tuch, Peterka, Dahlin....they really stepped up and produced in that critical stretch.    Skinner did not, but Krebs and Cousins REALLY did not. 1 goal in 18 games, hardly any assists, being overall minus player....they basically disappeared when the team need players to step up.

Hmmm…… really young guys wilting under pressure.  Whoda thunk?

[mjd1001]

39 minutes ago, Weave said:

Hmmm…… really young guys wilting under pressure.  Whoda thunk?

I'd just expect a little more from Cozens, seeing how he had 30 last year, and he's been a full time player for 3+ years now.  Plus you do have numerous young players doing well in a variety of circumstances....Wyatt Johnson is playing a big role on Dallas fighting for the presidents trophy. Locan Cooley and Dylan Guenther aren't playing for anything at all in Arizona.  Lucas Raymond is in the middle of a playoff push just like the Sabres. Those are just 4 guys I found in looking at stats for 30 seconds.....all of them younger than Cozens, all of them putting in goals at (or close to) a goal every other game over the same year end stretch drive.  

I am very hard on Cozens, but after last year, and him getting paid $7m+, I really REALLY want more production from him.

[Pimlach]

16 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I think it was the March 7nd game against Vegas (a 7-2 win) that optimism for this team possibly making a run at the playoffs hit a peak.  They had just won their 5th in 6 games (wins over Carolina, Tampa, and Vegas of course), the only loss being a 1 goal loss to Florida in Florida, and they passed the .500 point percentage for the first time in a long time.

Since then, things haven't gone well.  Who exactly showed up and who didn't since then during the stretch to the playoffs, that obviously failed:

-Tage showed up. 11 goals, 20 points, +11 in 17 games (53 goal, 96 point, +53 pace projected over 82 games)

-Peterka, 9 goals in 18 games.

-Tuch, 18 points in 18 games.

Who didn't?

Cozens.  1 goal. 5 points.  -3. In 18 games.

I get it, he's 23.  But is risky to rely on Cozens as your #2 center next year.

Great data here!

I think Tage is going to remain a solid contributor whether you call him a 1C, or a 2C that plays 1C on this team. 

I think Tuch is what we see.  A 20-25 goal scorer, that can hit 30+ some years, and that can play anywhere on the top 9 as needed.  

Peterka is still learning and has earned top 6 this season.  Quinn is another that should be pushing for top 6. 

Cozens is clearly having some growing pains.  Thinking of the Trotz quote, we really need to help him.  

Sabres #1 need, without any doubt is a top center.  Add 2C/1C capable guy that easily forces Cozens to 3C.  Trade some of the precious kids to start winning now.  

I am not thrilled with Krebs as a 4C either.  He works hard but 4C is a were I want to see a shut down center, with some scoring touch, that wins draws, and helps on the PK.  

We need 2 veteran centers to improve for next year.  Bringing in kids from Rochester is not the answer if playoffs are a serious goal.  We are saturated with youth.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I'd just expect a little more from Cozens, seeing how he had 30 last year, and he's been a full time player for 3+ years now.  Plus you do have numerous young players doing well in a variety of circumstances....Wyatt Johnson is playing a big role on Dallas fighting for the presidents trophy. Locan Cooley and Dylan Guenther aren't playing for anything at all in Arizona.  Lucas Raymond is in the middle of a playoff push just like the Sabres. Those are just 4 guys I found in looking at stats for 30 seconds.....all of them younger than Cozens, all of them putting in goals at (or close to) a goal every other game over the same year end stretch drive.  

I am very hard on Cozens, but after last year, and him getting paid $7m+, I really REALLY want more production from him.

Well Cooley, Guenther and Raymond did not score 30 playing center for 2 rookies last year either.  This season has been rough for Cozens from the very start.  Our crappy roster construction forces the kid to be a leader, a fighter, and a protector.  

Cozens is falling victim to what Trotz described.   They threw a ton of money at a 22 year old and said, you are a core leader, go get'em Dylan.   They had similar expectations on Dahlin - he never had a mentor or was paired with someone that could help him get better and learn.  He did it on his own.  

Dahin and Cozens have been pushed fast.  Power too, for that matter.    Some players can handle it, some cannot.