Question for our Canadian residents regarding player salaries and taxes.

[Hank]

A few weeks ago I heard John Scott talking about John Tavares going to court with the CRA over back taxes. I can't remember exactly what he said, but something to the effect of players being taxed at 35%, but 70M of the 77M for Tavares was a signing bonus which is only taxed at 15%, putting about an extra 15M in his pockets. Scott credited (blamed?) Prime Minister Trudeau with closing this loophole, and the CRA did a reassessment and is going after Tavares for the 15M. 

Is what Scott said accurate? If it is, will it make it harder for canadian teams to sign/keep players?

Edited March 27 by Hank

[PerreaultForever]

Can't say for sure about these specifics but they did close some tax loopholes a few years back. That started when the whole look at how much tax is being evaded using overseas Cayman Islands type things. The public was outraged at examples of rich guys paying less tax than ordinary people so they went after a ton of loopholes. Tavares may have been caught up in that so I guess his Leaf PJs ended up costing him. 

I have no sympathy for him. 

As for players not wanting to play in Canada that is already a thing for some and we all know how no tax states like Florida get an advantage but I doubt it affects much. Matthews, McDavid, lots of big name Canada signings. They can make money other ways up here due to the popularity. 

[oddoublee]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Can't say for sure about these specifics but they did close some tax loopholes a few years back. That started when the whole look at how much tax is being evaded using overseas Cayman Islands type things. The public was outraged at examples of rich guys paying less tax than ordinary people so they went after a ton of loopholes. Tavares may have been caught up in that so I guess his Leaf PJs ended up costing him. 

I have no sympathy for him. 

As for players not wanting to play in Canada that is already a thing for some and we all know how no tax states like Florida get an advantage but I doubt it affects much. Matthews, McDavid, lots of big name Canada signings. They can make money other ways up here due to the popularity. 

They are not paying less taxes than 'ordinary' people. They are paying a lower rate. But they are paying more actual taxes (money). 

Regarding Tavares - he has every right to be upset. He signed a contract based on current tax law - and the government not only changed the law (which they can do) - but then went retroactive. Dangerous precedent. 

Getting top tier players was already difficult for Canadian teams - this will make it even tougher...which I didn't think was possible. 

That said, the allure of playing for Toronto will never go away....

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, oddoublee said:

They are not paying less taxes than 'ordinary' people. They are paying a lower rate. But they are paying more actual taxes (money). 

Regarding Tavares - he has every right to be upset. He signed a contract based on current tax law - and the government not only changed the law (which they can do) - but then went retroactive. Dangerous precedent. 

Getting top tier players was already difficult for Canadian teams - this will make it even tougher...which I didn't think was possible. 

That said, the allure of playing for Toronto will never go away....

No that is totally incorrect. Some of them were in fact paying no tax or less tax than average people. Hiding money in foreign places. There were several prosecuted and loopholes closed. No doubt many are still getting away with it. 

Couldn't give a toss about Tavares. I'm sure he still has net more money than me and you together, even with the added tax. Boohoo. 

 

[MattPie]

The people that have benefited most from society can pay some extra for its upkeep.

[#freejame]

30 minutes ago, MattPie said:

The people that have benefited most from society can pay some extra for its upkeep.

Yeah but they don’t wanna so what are we gonna do 🤷‍♀️

[Big Guava]

Canadian taxes are ridonkculous...

Imagine taxes being so high that it is cheaper to pay to go on organized bus trips across the bridge to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and hit up the malls there to buy clothes, losing 1/3 of the value of your currency, if not more, and it is STILL cheaper than buying those items in Canada due to taxes being so high.

[oddoublee]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No that is totally incorrect. Some of them were in fact paying no tax or less tax than average people. Hiding money in foreign places. There were several prosecuted and loopholes closed. No doubt many are still getting away with it. 

Couldn't give a toss about Tavares. I'm sure he still has net more money than me and you together, even with the added tax. Boohoo. 

 

i am boohooing no one. but i will never begrudge a person to hold onto as much money as possible - we are all keen to do so no matter how much we make. regardless, this is a hockey forum and would hate for us to go further down the political side of things. 

 

[JoeSchmoe]

5 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Canadian taxes are ridonkculous...

Imagine taxes being so high that it is cheaper to pay to go on organized bus trips across the bridge to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and hit up the malls there to buy clothes, losing 1/3 of the value of your currency, if not more, and it is STILL cheaper than buying those items in Canada due to taxes being so high.

Most things aren't not cheaper anymore. Gas and booze still are... Not much else.

Inflation has been bad here in Canada, but it's been way worse south of the border. Now, everything is about the same in USD as it is in CAN, but you're paying close to a 1.40 premium on exchange. 

Last summer I was gassing up at a Stewart's Shops in a small town just outside the Adirondacks. They had a Help Wanted ad on the gas pump for an "Assistant Store Manager in Training. Salary $60-$80k / year." Seeing that was a real eye opener as to why prices have really skyrocketed down there. Places had to pay that kind of premium just to get people to work.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Big Guava said:

Canadian taxes are ridonkculous...

Imagine taxes being so high that it is cheaper to pay to go on organized bus trips across the bridge to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and hit up the malls there to buy clothes, losing 1/3 of the value of your currency, if not more, and it is STILL cheaper than buying those items in Canada due to taxes being so high.

and yet studies on happiness show that Canadians are happier than Americans and those Scandinavian countries with taxes much higher than even Canada are the happiest of all. There is something to be said for having various stesses of life removed by having strong public systems and safety nets in place. Taxes pay for that. 

Now every country is different and every piece of geography has it's own pressures and issues but just holding onto your precious dollars and not paying taxes isn't the be all and end all of life. You pay one way or you pay another. You have to compare the whole social picture rather than just looking at a number. No need to get political and if you like where you live best of all that's great, but that happiness measurement is a real thing and can't be dismissed.

The same thing holds for hockey players. There are quite a few Canadian players who prefer staying in Canada. Maybe Winnipeg is cold and isolated enough to have issues and maybe some don't want to speak French in Quebec but Toronto and Vancouver are certainly not going to have any issues, taxes and all.  Lots of players go back to where they came from, especially those Swedes, after they retire. Some still live there now and just stay in condos here while playing. Remember Hasek saying he wanted his son to grow up in the Czech Republic? There are a LOT of happiness related reasons for people to want to be places, and Tavares got to fill out his PJs so he should shut it. 

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

and yet studies on happiness show that Canadians are happier than Americans and those Scandinavian countries with taxes much higher than even Canada are the happiest of all. There is something to be said for having various stesses of life removed by having strong public systems and safety nets in place. Taxes pay for that. 

I agree with your second two paragraphs, everybody is different. I love winter, some don't. Some like paying extra for well funded public schools, some would rather save their $$$ and go the private route. Some like big city living with all the hustle and bustle, some like small towns.

I don't agree with the happiness studies though.

Quantifying happiness is nearly impossible, and the groups producing these studies nearly always have a socialist bent (including the UN). I'm sure if a right leaning think tank were to devise a similar study, the results would be completely different. Anecdotally, I have quite a few friends that moved to the US, and as a whole they're all happier there than those of us that are still in Canada. The spread seems to have been trending wider and wider over the last 8 years... I wonder why 😉

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I agree with your second two paragraphs, everybody is different. I love winter, some don't. Some like paying extra for well funded public schools, some would rather save their $$$ and go the private route. Some like big city living with all the hustle and bustle, some like small towns.

I don't agree with the happiness studies though.

Quantifying happiness is nearly impossible, and the groups producing these studies nearly always have a socialist bent (including the UN). I'm sure if a right leaning think tank were to devise a similar study, the results would be completely different. Anecdotally, I have quite a few friends that moved to the US, and as a whole they're all happier there than those of us that are still in Canada. The spread seems to have been trending wider and wider over the last 8 years... I wonder why 😉

I'm sure they exist and there is a reason we aren't shown the results. 😂

 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I agree with your second two paragraphs, everybody is different. I love winter, some don't. Some like paying extra for well funded public schools, some would rather save their $$$ and go the private route. Some like big city living with all the hustle and bustle, some like small towns.

I don't agree with the happiness studies though.

Quantifying happiness is nearly impossible, and the groups producing these studies nearly always have a socialist bent (including the UN). I'm sure if a right leaning think tank were to devise a similar study, the results would be completely different. Anecdotally, I have quite a few friends that moved to the US, and as a whole they're all happier there than those of us that are still in Canada. The spread seems to have been trending wider and wider over the last 8 years... I wonder why 😉

With the funding they have you really want to argue that right wing think tanks haven't already put everything out there that supports their view already out there?

You can quantify everything these days. Look at hockey analytics. Everything is quantified. If people are happy, they are happy. You need to consider why that is. 

[JoeSchmoe]

17 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

With the funding they have you really want to argue that right wing think tanks haven't already put everything out there that supports their view already out there?

You can quantify everything these days. Look at hockey analytics. Everything is quantified. If people are happy, they are happy. You need to consider why that is. 

I don't think right wing think tanks give a rats behind about carrying out an international "happiness" survey. And even if they did, as Swamp mentioned, you'd never hear about them since they don't fit the media agenda.

Among the 1st world countries with relatively comparable quality of life, you can crank out whatever result you want depending on the questions you ask and the weightings you give it. As I'm closer to the centre (admittedly slightly right), neither the left or right "happiness" surveys are worth the paper their printed on.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I don't think right wing think tanks give a rats behind about carrying out an international "happiness" survey. And even if they did, as Swamp mentioned, you'd never hear about them since they don't fit the media agenda.

Among the 1st world countries with relatively comparable quality of life, you can crank out whatever result you want depending on the questions you ask and the weightings you give it. As I'm closer to the centre (admittedly slightly right), neither the left or right "happiness" surveys are worth the paper their printed on.

Using  a phrase like "media agenda" plants you into the right wing conspiracy camp. Good luck with all that. When it comes to "agendas" just follow the money, not the rhetoric and propaganda. It'll get you closer to actual truth and facts. 

Right wing think tanks pump out tons of stuff like that all the time. Any study they can come up with to fuel their machine and their agenda gets funded and published and promoted heavily. They have done that for years. It was all laid out in 1973 by the Trilateral Commission but nobody reads that sort of thing do they. Anyway, it's part of their managing of democracy strategy but we are getting political so let's leave it there. Look into it if you want, if you don't want to don't. 

Happiness is a real thing though. Think about it objectively. If Americans were "happy" like those Swedes and Finns, how could a MAGA movement exist? It's based on returning to happy times for people who are unhappy now. The target of anger varies on the left or right but the unhappiness has to be there for the anger to continue. That's just simple logic. 

[triumph_communes]

Canada used to have some serious loopholes for taxes if you set it up with foreign addresses and accounts. 

[Big Guava]

17 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

and yet studies on happiness show that Canadians are happier than Americans and those Scandinavian countries with taxes much higher than even Canada are the happiest of all. There is something to be said for having various stesses of life removed by having strong public systems and safety nets in place. Taxes pay for that. 

Now every country is different and every piece of geography has it's own pressures and issues but just holding onto your precious dollars and not paying taxes isn't the be all and end all of life. You pay one way or you pay another. You have to compare the whole social picture rather than just looking at a number. No need to get political and if you like where you live best of all that's great, but that happiness measurement is a real thing and can't be dismissed.

The same thing holds for hockey players. There are quite a few Canadian players who prefer staying in Canada. Maybe Winnipeg is cold and isolated enough to have issues and maybe some don't want to speak French in Quebec but Toronto and Vancouver are certainly not going to have any issues, taxes and all.  Lots of players go back to where they came from, especially those Swedes, after they retire. Some still live there now and just stay in condos here while playing. Remember Hasek saying he wanted his son to grow up in the Czech Republic? There are a LOT of happiness related reasons for people to want to be places, and Tavares got to fill out his PJs so he should shut it. 

Yeah, it's so great that some who don't feel like waiting a year or two for procedures since they are so backed up pay to have it done in the US.

Tax dollars at work...back up the system so much that people have to pay crazy high taxes AND out of pocket in a different country for a medical procedure that should be free.

Cool on the happiness studies. What exactly does that mean? I am pretty happy and since I really am not interested in how much others are happy or not, since that's largely a choice they make, these don't mean much to me.

Edited March 29 by Big Guava

[JoeSchmoe]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Using  a phrase like "media agenda" plants you into the right wing conspiracy camp. Good luck with all that. When it comes to "agendas" just follow the money, not the rhetoric and propaganda. It'll get you closer to actual truth and facts. 

Right wing think tanks pump out tons of stuff like that all the time. Any study they can come up with to fuel their machine and their agenda gets funded and published and promoted heavily. They have done that for years. It was all laid out in 1973 by the Trilateral Commission but nobody reads that sort of thing do they. Anyway, it's part of their managing of democracy strategy but we are getting political so let's leave it there. Look into it if you want, if you don't want to don't. 

Happiness is a real thing though. Think about it objectively. If Americans were "happy" like those Swedes and Finns, how could a MAGA movement exist? It's based on returning to happy times for people who are unhappy now. The target of anger varies on the left or right but the unhappiness has to be there for the anger to continue. That's just simple logic. 

Yep... Them Swedes are all just sitting around eating meatballs on their Ikea furniture singing Kumbaya.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/far-right-party-making-inroads-in-sweden/

There's media agendas of all sorts, left and right. Here in Canada though, the media knows what side it's bread is buttered on and skews left given the massive subsidies ($600M worth!).

In any case, NHL players are all going to find a place they like left or right, hot or cold, tax or no tax. Me, I don't mind spending extra tax on a well funded school system and health care, but I'd like to see people be able to pay for services to reduce lineups in the public system.

I always think of Craig Rivet in these discussions. From Northern Ontario, played a long time on Montreal which is an amazing city, moves to the West Coast to the high-end Silicon Valley, but fell in love with Buffalo. Of the NHL cities, I'd want to live in, I'd rank Buffalo high since there's no traffic, I don't like clubbing, I like winter, and the suburbs are good and safe places to live. North Buffalo is nice too. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Big Guava said:

Yeah, it's so great that some who don't feel like waiting a year or two for procedures since they are so backed up pay to have it done in the US.

Tax dollars at work...back up the system so much that people have to pay crazy high taxes AND out of pocket in a different country for a medical procedure that should be free.

Cool on the happiness studies. What exactly does that mean? I am pretty happy and since I really am not interested in how much others are happy or not, since that's largely a choice they make, these don't mean much to me.

haha - you've eaten up that Fox News propaganda I see. Good luck with all that. 

Meanwhile, while I hit 65 this year the government's going to give me even more free money. I don't need it, but I will enjoy spending it. Worry free retirement gives me lots of time to waste on Sabrespace 🙂

Research a little deeper. Let's leave it there. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Yep... Them Swedes are all just sitting around eating meatballs on their Ikea furniture singing Kumbaya.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/far-right-party-making-inroads-in-sweden/

There's media agendas of all sorts, left and right. Here in Canada though, the media knows what side it's bread is buttered on and skews left given the massive subsidies ($600M worth!).

In any case, NHL players are all going to find a place they like left or right, hot or cold, tax or no tax. Me, I don't mind spending extra tax on a well funded school system and health care, but I'd like to see people be able to pay for services to reduce lineups in the public system.

I always think of Craig Rivet in these discussions. From Northern Ontario, played a long time on Montreal which is an amazing city, moves to the West Coast to the high-end Silicon Valley, but fell in love with Buffalo. Of the NHL cities, I'd want to live in, I'd rank Buffalo high since there's no traffic, I don't like clubbing, I like winter, and the suburbs are good and safe places to live. North Buffalo is nice too. 

I'm going to leave the rest as it's going to get too political but the city conversation is interesting. There are many factors that go in to that and different places are better for different people and their age and lifestyle. 

Now I grew up in Hamilton and used to spend a lot of time in Toronto, which was great at that age, and some time in Buffalo. It was good for that over the border underage night life. Back then Buffalo was similar to Hamilton and Toronto but a little dirtier and more run down in places. I imagine they are still pretty much the same so if you don't hate the snow (Buffalo gets so much more) it's not a bad city. 

If I had to live in the U.S. I'd either stay west (Seattle, Portland, etc) or move into that upper New England and New York State area. Both areas are closer to Canadian in terms of the people and the general attitudes. Southern U.S. ain't for me.

I've seen a few studies that name Raleigh as the best city in the U.S. but they usually factor in the cost of real estate and that is an issue that changes a lot of things. In Canada, for example, you can go live in Edmonton or in New Brunswick for dirt cheap but I wouldn't choose those places unless I had to. I live just outside Vancouver, and although it is expensive as hell, it is without a doubt the nicest city in North America IF you don't factor in that housing cost. It's expensive for a reason. 

I enjoyed my years in Nanaimo on the island where @bunomatic  lives and it was a good place to raise small children but it's a little cut off from the big city and so I like the short drive down the highway better but I can see the allure of that area for sure. It's just gorgeous there. 

idk I'm just rambling here (I have this high taxed worry free lifestyle :)) but city choices (or rural choices) are a really subjective thing so it would go back to happiness. If you hate snow you'd hate Buffalo. If you hate rain you'd hate Vancouver. If you like basically no snow and mild winters you'd love Vancouver. It's all subjective, but back to hockey, if you are rich, as players are, I doubt there'd be any Canadian hockey player who would hate being traded to Vancouver. 

[Big Guava]

26 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

haha - you've eaten up that Fox News propaganda I see. Good luck with all that. 

Meanwhile, while I hit 65 this year the government's going to give me even more free money. I don't need it, but I will enjoy spending it. Worry free retirement gives me lots of time to waste on Sabrespace 🙂

Research a little deeper. Let's leave it there. 

I live in the Buffalo area. Lest you forget many places are far closer to Canada than they are across town.

I don't need to read about Fox news propaganda, I live in the areas where you see it happening and talk to people that are from the area about it.

I also go to Canada fairly frequently.

So you are getting the equivalent of American Social Security except far less than what Americans get?

As of right now when I retire, if I only earn the same and never increase my income, which likely will happen, I will be getting roughly $4900 thru Social Security a month.

I believe the "research" I did says the max benefit in Canada is like $1365 a month? Which when adjusted to American Dollars is more like $1011 or so as of today?

Did I miss something?

Edited March 29 by Big Guava

[Weave]

2 hours ago, Big Guava said:

I live in the Buffalo area. Lest you forget many places are far closer to Canada than they are across town.

I don't need to read about Fox news propaganda, I live in the areas where you see it happening and talk to people that are from the area about it.

I also go to Canada fairly frequently.

So you are getting the equivalent of American Social Security except far less than what Americans get?

As of right now when I retire, if I only earn the same and never increase my income, which likely will happen, I will be getting roughly $4900 thru Social Security a month.

I believe the "research" I did says the max benefit in Canada is like $1365 a month? Which when adjusted to American Dollars is more like $1011 or so as of today?

Did I miss something?

39 yrs at $160k income? 
 

*golf clap*

 

[JoeSchmoe]

3 hours ago, Big Guava said:

I live in the Buffalo area. Lest you forget many places are far closer to Canada than they are across town.

I don't need to read about Fox news propaganda, I live in the areas where you see it happening and talk to people that are from the area about it.

I also go to Canada fairly frequently.

So you are getting the equivalent of American Social Security except far less than what Americans get?

As of right now when I retire, if I only earn the same and never increase my income, which likely will happen, I will be getting roughly $4900 thru Social Security a month.

I believe the "research" I did says the max benefit in Canada is like $1365 a month? Which when adjusted to American Dollars is more like $1011 or so as of today?

Did I miss something?

That's about right for the Canada Pension Plan. Plus as long as you're not a high earner you'll get about another $700 in Old Age Security. Above a certain income they'll claw that back. If you're poor, they'll top you up a bit. 

[Big Guava]

5 hours ago, Weave said:

39 yrs at $160k income? 
 

*golf clap*

 

Factors in my wife collecting on mine as well, so I guess it would be combined.

[JoeSchmoe]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

it is without a doubt the nicest city in North America IF you don't factor in that housing cost

I know a family that moved back to Niagara from Vancouver because of the weather. Too much rain in Vancouver. My daughter's friend's dad that moved to Seattle said that all the homes in their neighborhood have concrete play areas in their backyards due to marshy conditions. (Thay said, they are still happier in the US vs Canada).

I've never been to Vancouver, but based on the climate data I've looked at (7C highs in the winter and 22C highs in the summer) it doesn't do it for me as a place to live... Even without it being the most expensive place to live in Canada... and despite snowboarding being my favourite pastime. I'd rather live in a small town in the BC interior with a true winter and true summer and take my chances with forest fire smoke.  I know the Vancouver ocean is a big selling point but my understanding is it's too cold to swim in. Are there pockets anywhere that are shallow enough to warm up to be comfortable in the summer? The BC interior lakes are more appealing to me. 

On paper I think Penticton, Invermere, and Nelson would be more up my alley. Closer to home here in Southern Ontario, I'd like to move to an English speaking town in Quebec in the Eastern Townships and still be driving distance away from my kids (presuming they stay in Ontario). My favourite spot in the world though is the Adirondacks, and I'd gladly move to a small town like Long Lake or Speculator if immigration were a non issue.