Kevyn and Don, should we really expect more after four years?

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

There is a give and take. The give and take is an argument about pulling the plug now and firing Adams, or acknowledging that while we failed this year, it would be in our best interest to give Adams another go. I fall down on the same side you do, in fact, in this regard

But that’s not the framing. I’m sorry if it doesn’t matter to you but it does to me. Suggesting it might be unreasonable to have expected more to this point is below the belt type jargon 

I believe in people’s perception being their reality so obviously “unreasonable” was a poor choice of words given the response it generated. I in no way meant to insult anyone or belittle their feelings.

If it makes anyone feel better I decided to attend my first game in a month tonight so it feels like punishment is being served.

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I believe in people’s perception being their reality so obviously “unreasonable” was a poor choice of words given the response it generated. I in no way meant to insult anyone or belittle their feelings.

If it makes anyone feel better I decided to attend my first game in a month tonight so it feels like punishment is being served.

I’ve been known to lose the forest from the trees in getting caught up in the specifics of the wording, certain turns of phrase are admittedly triggers for me. Like I said I even agree we should give them another shot. It’s just definitively not “unreasonable” to have expected more. Dollars to donuts playoffs were the rightful expectation but even if that wasn’t one’s personal expectation, to say it was “unreasonable” to expect that is just a bridge too far. I wouldn’t even say it’s unreasonable to NOT expect playoffs this year, if that’s one’s own personal timeline. 

[tom webster]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I’ve been known to lose the forest from the trees in getting caught up in the specifics of the wording, certain turns of phrase are admittedly triggers for me. Like I said I even agree we should give them another shot. It’s just definitively not “unreasonable” to have expected more. Dollars to donuts playoffs were the rightful expectation but even if that wasn’t one’s personal expectation, to say it was “unreasonable” to expect that is just a bridge too far. I wouldn’t even say it’s unreasonable to NOT expect playoffs this year, if that’s one’s own personal timeline. 

It’s funny, I was going to use “forest for the trees” earlier but images of a young Linda Ronstadt clouded my brain. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Wrong on player evaluation again 

Good catch on the Levi prediction Thorny. My arrogance has earned me a big piece of humble pie. Well played sir! 

[steveoath]

Granato needs to go. 

[Cascade Youth]

Granato may or may not be a good coach but keeping him is indefensible.  It’s flipping the bird to the fans.

[Eli Cash]

Not pulling UPL after the third goal last night is when I gave up on Granato.  UPL has been a revelation this year.  He deserved better, and the team clearly needed a shakeup.

There are only 30 of these jobs.  GMKA should be able to find the right one for this team.  Right?!?!  Or is it TP that finds the coach?  If that’s the case, this team is officially screwed.

[Archie Lee]

I think Adams missed a moment. Somewhere, and likely at multiple points, between the end of the 21-22 season (Eichel trade, strong finish) and this past off-season, Adams needed to commit to winning now. That doesn’t mean he needed to do anything reckless or trade the farm or irrationally fire someone after one bad game. It just means he needed to act like a normal NHL GM and make moves that showed the clear intent to be a playoff team. Unfortunately, he didn’t do that and that window has been slammed shut.  We seem further away now than we did two years ago.  The “people who want to be here” vibes are gone and whatever improvements he did make to the culture are teetering.
 

Make no mistake, the top 9 forwards you saw last night are the top 9 forwards. The D are the D (Sammy or RJ will replace Bryson) and the goalies are the goalies. Also, the coaches are the coaches. I would like to think Adams understands he needs to make moves, but he has always signaled his intent. He said it himself, he tried to get a 4th line centre at the deadline. Prepare to be underwhelmed. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

5-0 deficit in the 1st period to Ottawa.  I say we should expect more.  Both KA and DG need to go.  This team has regressed this season despite vast improvements from UPL, Joki and JJP, and the addition of Clifton.  

This team was unprepared for the start of the season and comes out slow most nights.  The PP has remained awful for the entire campaign. The slow starts and PP are on the coaching staff and they need to go.   The lack of goaltending since Ullmark left and the failed 3 headed goalie monster that was terrible (all 3 goalies) to start the season is on the GM, and he should lose his job because of it.  For all the "great" drafting, we still don't have what we really need and that is toughness, playmaking and good in zone defensemen.  

The sad part is who wants to work for Pegula?  

[Buffalonill]

Team is hopeless and Usually your hopeful for the future but this Franchise is doomed

[MISabresFan]

It is obvious - we do expect more.  

[Crusader1969]

2 weeks ago, I thought Don was safe and would get to come back next season but no longer. 

Losing to Detroit, the 3rd period vs Edmonton  and now last nights debacle has convinced me and hopefully KA that he must be fired. I would actually fire him today to make a real statement to the team.  

 

 

[GoPuckYourself]

Unfortunately we know how this will play out, they'll just name Seth Appert HC (Granato 2.0) and it will be rinse/repeat.

[Buffalonill]

3 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Unfortunately we know how this will play out, they'll just name Seth Appert HC (Granato 2.0) and it will be rinse/repeat.

Yeah good luck getting people to renew their tickets

[sabrefanday1]

Strange that we all kinda agreed that last year if the team had had competent goaltending they woul dhave been in the playoffs easily as they lost manyt games last year from sheer poor goaltending. This year, they have had good goaltending from UPL for the most part (certainly from the beginning of the new year) and yet they are worse then they were last season. I woul dhave thought they would have a  significantly better record yet they have regressed badly. No excuse for that.

  Many clamoured for better defense, but where has that got us? I preferred last year's team that was at least exciting win or lose. This year they are just boring. I am so ready to see a new coach and the team bringing in some grit an deven a fighter if need be to bring some kind of life an denergy to the ice. They sure could have used that last night. I was tired of the fighting but at this point if it lifts the team and brings some energy then so be it...    

[DarthEbriate]

TL;DR? Don't be surprised if UPL gets a low-ball $2.75M bridge offer and then walks as a UFA or is traded… only to have a solid NHL career elsewhere with a real starter's salary. 

 

EEE has been the mandate in the GM Sheevyn era. Courtesy of Spotrac, here are the total cap hits of the Sabres goalies in those seasons. This isn't the starter/backup tandem, this cap number is for the entire franchise. They're trying to do the equivalent of trying to win in the NFL with a rookie QB contract -- but not having invested the additional money elsewhere, like say a top-5 veteran defense (but that would require all the forwards [and coaching] to also be great at defense), etc.

20-21
CH 2.75, LU 2.6, DT .725, JJ (no cap hit retained, .03 salary), MH .7, SL* .7
Sheevyn inherits one year on Hutton's (post-eye injury) contract.
Combined Cap: $7.475M

21-22
CA .75, DT .725, MH .75, AD .75, UPL .778, MS .85 
Sheevyn doesn't extend or trade Ullmark and appears to have no plan whatsoever other than sign players to $750k contracts (Tokarski rues signing the year before). Retired Craig Anderson unretires, plays well... and earns another contract!
Combined Cap: $4.603M

22-23
BB 4.9, UPL .8375, DL .925, EC 1.8, CA 1.5, MS .85, MH .75
Bishop's actual salary paid this season was only $3.5. WeeeEEE!
Trivia: Who is the highest paid goalie in a single season of the GM Sheevyn era? Ben Bishop
Prospect note: There was no room in this goalie pool for Portillo (equivalent AHL numbers to Levi this season) to get a contract offer [and yes, the writing was on the wall who was the franchise's preferred rookie in DL].
Combined Cap: $11.525M to hit cap floor.  Non-LTIR: $6.6625M

23-24
EC 1.8, DL .925, UPL .8375, DC N/A, DT .775 
(Curious side notes: Michael Houser hasn't been signed to an NHL deal this season... yet! And Toker gets his $25k make up as an honorary 750.)
Combined Cap: $4.3375M

 

*SL=Stefanos Lekkas

Edited March 28 by DarthEbriate
hyphen fix

[Stoner]

This didn't age well.

Come on now. It's pro sports. Everyone knows how it works. You're hired to be fired. And you make a lot of money to ease the pain of the humiliation.

Fans want hope. Changing the regime is fun, good and healthy.

Terry should clean house again.

[SwampD]

That Ben Bishop trivia,… good lord.

If EEE has forced them to be operating with shackles on, then the very thing that may have doomed DG and KA, might actually save them this off-season.

If there has been an internal cap, and it gets lifted, I’m not sure how to feel about that.

Either way, it’s a big FU to the fans. Pegula sucks and needs to go.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

TL;DR? Don't be surprised if UPL gets a low-ball $2.75M bridge offer and then walks as a UFA or is traded… only to have a solid NHL career elsewhere with a real starter's salary. 

 

EEE has been the mandate in the GM Sheevyn era. Courtesy of Spotrac, here are the total cap hits of the Sabres goalies in those seasons. This isn't the starter/backup tandem, this cap number is for the entire franchise. They're trying to do the equivalent of trying to win in the NFL with a rookie QB contract -- but not having invested the additional money elsewhere, like say a top-5 veteran defense (but that would require all the forwards [and coaching] to also be great at defense), etc.

20-21
CH 2.75, LU 2.6, DT .725, JJ (no cap hit retained, .03 salary), MH .7, SL* .7
Sheevyn inherits one year on Hutton's (post-eye injury) contract.
Combined Cap: $7.475M

21-22
CA .75, DT .725, MH .75, AD .75, UPL .778, MS .85 
Sheevyn doesn't extend or trade Ullmark and appears to have no plan whatsoever other than sign players to $750k contracts (Tokarski rues signing the year before). Retired Craig Anderson unretires, plays well... and earns another contract!
Combined Cap: $4.603M

22-23
BB 4.9, UPL .8375, DL .925, EC 1.8, CA 1.5, MS .85, MH .75
Bishop's actual salary paid this season was only $3.5. WeeeEEE!
Trivia: Who is the highest paid goalie in a single season of the GM Sheevyn era? Ben Bishop
Prospect note: There was no room in this goalie pool for Portillo (equivalent AHL numbers to Levi this season) to get a contract offer [and yes, the writing was on the wall who was the franchise's preferred rookie in DL].
Combined Cap: $11.525M to hit cap floor.  Non-LTIR: $6.6625M

23-24
EC 1.8, DL .925, UPL .8375, DC N/A, DT .775 
(Curious side notes: Michael Houser hasn't been signed to an NHL deal this season... yet! And Toker gets his $25k make up as an honorary 750.)
Combined Cap: $4.3375M

 

*SL=Stefanos Lekkas

 

Well, next year even with a 4mil contract for UPL and 2 mil for a backup we'd be at 6M total which is effectively dead center. 

[DarthEbriate]

25 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Well, next year even with a 4mil contract for UPL and 2 mil for a backup we'd be at 6M total which is effectively dead center. 

But that's just it. There has been nothing to indicate that the Sabres have any desire to pay starter/backup comparable salaries.

 

With this GM (EEE), they don't spend anywhere near market. 

Contrast our spending with two teams that have been actively winding down and outright tanking the last 3 seasons to get Bedard/Celebrini. These goalies aren't their future, but they have proven NHL vets (Mrazek, for example) who can weather the storm and play consistently. And in some cases, they're retaining or buying out contracts for picks/assets.

None of these teams (BUF,SJS,CHI,DET) has paid a goalie $5M+ cap hit to skew the numbers.

SJS
21-22: $8.841M
22-23: $9.9M
23-24: $11.99M

CHI
21-22: $6.93M
22-23: $7.135M (while winning Bedard)
23-24: $6.57M (Still actively tanking. They've also had perfect goalie health this season: only 4 goalie contracts for the entire organization.)

Or Detroit, whose rise/track has been battling with the Sabres:

DET
21-22: $9.89M
22-23: $10.175M
23-24: $9.637M

[kas23]

Been thinking about this thread for days. I don’t buy the whole approach of comparing the Sabres to bottom dwellers. True, they all have losing in common. But there’s fundamental flaws in most of these teams. There are teams out there, no matter what they do, and they will still lose. Some say they are “cursed” or ownership or whatever. Who knows. But these are certainly not the teams we should use as a yardstick for progress. If an “educated” opinion believes they are, they prove they are likely part of the problem, not the solution. As such, their opinion should be ignored. 

[kas23]

6 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Well, next year even with a 4mil contract for UPL and 2 mil for a backup we'd be at 6M total which is effectively dead center. 

If you would UPL, would you resign with the Sabres? I’m prepared for Ulmark 2.0. 

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, kas23 said:

If you would UPL, would you resign with the Sabres? I’m prepared for Ulmark 2.0. 

He has a starters job.

Ullmark left due to his father's death pushing him to want to leave

UPL hopefully will have no such issue. 

[Buffalonill]

24 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

He has a starters job.

Ullmark left due to his father's death pushing him to want to leave

UPL hopefully will have no such issue. 

Is that really true ? I thought buffalo offered more then boston 

[inkman]

12 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

Yeah good luck getting people to renew their tickets

Good.  I hope no one goes to another game for their entire existence.