Do we have a single prospect that will be any good next year?

[Crusader1969]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:52 PM, Gatorman0519 said:

And they haven’t actually rescued anything.  We are devoid of top end talent. There are some ok guys, but we need a couple of elite guys. 

Hey maybe they should tank next year to get the #1 pick? 

[ska-T Chitown]

PSA:

Benson 👏can't👏play👏in👏AHL👏next👏year👏

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread ...

[Gatorman0519]

6 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Hey maybe they should tank next year to get the #1 pick? 

That might happen naturally the way things are going. 

[Richard Noggin]

On 3/22/2024 at 3:56 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Nobody's ready imo and I wouldn't be surprised if Benson steps backwards and has a rocky up and down road for a years much like Mitts had. Probably doesn't take quite a s long as Mitts did, but the discussion next year might be should he go to Rochester. 

Johnson would be the only maybe unless you add Levi who is also a maybe but not really ready either. Sabres will probably use him as UPL's back up though. 

The additions to the current line up will be Quinn and Samuelsson. 

Benson has shown the resilience, tenacity, and instincts to overcome his physical shortcomings (and the beating he's taken all year) enough to belong on the Sabres NHL roster. He goes to the front of the net more than his well-paid teammates.

On 3/23/2024 at 4:10 PM, kas23 said:

I’m a big Benson fan and still think he’s a prospect, despite playing in the NHL. He’s only 18 and has shown flashes of brilliance this year. Compared to anyone else, he’s going to be the prospect that takes the next big step. Dude has to put in a great offseason though. Needs to get bigger and stronger. 

Definitely needs to work hard in the weight room and the cafeteria, but he's already flashed more toughness and compete than many of the Sabres' other diminutive prospects. 

On 3/23/2024 at 4:20 PM, Buffalonill said:

I believe he will go bonkers next year and look totally different 

Possible, seeing as he still hasn't backed down at all even after a full season of grown men bullying him all over the ice. 

21 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

Think Byram has a thing or two to tell about eating also. What I 've heard MacKinnon is obsessed with eating also, watching and demanding everyone to eat right.

MacKinnon reminded me of Pavelski when I used to frequently wait on visiting athletes at Tempo: smug, joyless, intense dudes a good team needs but no one actually "likes." Do the Sabres have a guy like that? Maybe TNT if he cuts out the visible frustration and ramps up the on-ice arrogance?

[Sidc3000]

7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Benson has shown the resilience, tenacity, and instincts to overcome his physical shortcomings (and the beating he's taken all year) enough to belong on the Sabres NHL roster. He goes to the front of the net more than his well-paid teammates.

Definitely needs to work hard in the weight room and the cafeteria, but he's already flashed more toughness and compete than many of the Sabres' other diminutive prospects. 

Possible, seeing as he still hasn't backed down at all even after a full season of grown men bullying him all over the ice. 

MacKinnon reminded me of Pavelski when I used to frequently wait on visiting athletes at Tempo: smug, joyless, intense dudes a good team needs but no one actually "likes." Do the Sabres have a guy like that? Maybe TNT if he cuts out the visible frustration and ramps up the on-ice arrogance?

They would never allow TNT to get like McKinnon. Remember, everyone on the Sabres have to be liked by everyone else. It’s a prerequisite 😂

[PerreaultForever]

18 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Benson has shown the resilience, tenacity, and instincts to overcome his physical shortcomings (and the beating he's taken all year) enough to belong on the Sabres NHL roster. He goes to the front of the net more than his well-paid teammates.

Sure he has, but that's not what I was saying. Rookies have irregular development paths and when you rush them in they often have fall backs before putting it all together. Again, look at Mitts path as an example of a first rounder drafted roughly around the same level. Up, down, looked like a bust, got it together, came into his prime. It took years. 

Benson might have a quicker and more direct path but he could also easily take huge steps backwards first. It's just the way it is, and we rush our prospects as a "plan" and it's not a good "plan". 

[JohnC]

37 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure he has, but that's not what I was saying. Rookies have irregular development paths and when you rush them in they often have fall backs before putting it all together. Again, look at Mitts path as an example of a first rounder drafted roughly around the same level. Up, down, looked like a bust, got it together, came into his prime. It took years. 

Benson might have a quicker and more direct path but he could also easily take huge steps backwards first. It's just the way it is, and we rush our prospects as a "plan" and it's not a good "plan". 

Young players do have uneven rates of improvement. But what has been impressive about Benson is that for a player so young and not fully physically developed, he hasn't faded as the season grinded on. If the rules would have allowed it, he would have played in Rochester this year. Although he wasn't very productive offensively, for a young guy he played a very responsible two-way game. And what has been so impressive about him is his willingness to hover around the opposition's net and take the physical abuse that comes doing so. A lot of the bigger and more physically imposing players on our team can learn from watching him play. It's going to take more time---but he's going to be really good for us. 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure he has, but that's not what I was saying. Rookies have irregular development paths and when you rush them in they often have fall backs before putting it all together. Again, look at Mitts path as an example of a first rounder drafted roughly around the same level. Up, down, looked like a bust, got it together, came into his prime. It took years. 

Benson might have a quicker and more direct path but he could also easily take huge steps backwards first. It's just the way it is, and we rush our prospects as a "plan" and it's not a good "plan". 

Casey is a perfect example of how the whole “development” thing is bunk. As you said, all players have different development curves. Good players figure it out or grow into or whatever. The whole notion that you can ruin a player by putting him in bad situations has always been old school garbage to me.

[JoeSchmoe]

6 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Casey is a perfect example of how the whole “development” thing is bunk. As you said, all players have different development curves. Good players figure it out or grow into or whatever. The whole notion that you can ruin a player by putting him in bad situations has always been old school garbage to me.

As someone who really likes seeing old school bunk get disproven, it'd be cool if someone could do the research on this. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Young players do have uneven rates of improvement. But what has been impressive about Benson is that for a player so young and not fully physically developed, he hasn't faded as the season grinded on. If the rules would have allowed it, he would have played in Rochester this year. Although he wasn't very productive offensively, for a young guy he played a very responsible two-way game. And what has been so impressive about him is his willingness to hover around the opposition's net and take the physical abuse that comes doing so. A lot of the bigger and more physically imposing players on our team can learn from watching him play. It's going to take more time---but he's going to be really good for us. 

Oh I think he could be very good for sure. I'd say he's our top prospect right now, but I also think he has in fact faded quite a bit, and they've asked too much from him at this point. Look at how many dumbass stick penalties he takes as an example. We need to be putting him in and out of the line up accordingly and teaching good habits not letting him develop bad ones. 

I cannot stand the way the Sabres consistently just throw players out there and say learn by playing. It's a terrible development plan and there isn't another team in the league that does that. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

Casey is a perfect example of how the whole “development” thing is bunk. As you said, all players have different development curves. Good players figure it out or grow into or whatever. The whole notion that you can ruin a player by putting him in bad situations has always been old school garbage to me.

Oddly we conclude completely different things from thew same example. 

Development is not bunk. Sabres development plans however are. the results speak for themselves. 

[erickompositör72]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Benson might have a quicker and more direct path but he could also easily take huge steps backwards first. It's just the way it is, and we rush our prospects as a "plan" and it's not a good "plan". 

If you are implying that the Sabres development "plan" for Benson was to play him in the NHL, I completely disagree. I believe they gave him his handful of games, and he showed that he was one of the guys that belonged here. I believe Benson forced their hand, not the other way around.

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

If you are implying that the Sabres development "plan" for Benson was to play him in the NHL, I completely disagree. I believe they gave him his handful of games, and he showed that he was one of the guys that belonged here. I believe Benson forced their hand, not the other way around.

No the NHL vs. junior thing was obvious. What I'm saying is about the minutes he gets, whether he plays every game or not. The amount of playing vs. off ice development. He's been placed in too high of a role and he's just kind of thrown out there regardless of what happens on ice. We do that with too many of them but that's a whole long discussion and unlikely to go anywhere as it's KA and Granato who make that decision not us. 

They are idiots. 

[tom webster]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oddly we conclude completely different things from thew same example. 

Development is not bunk. Sabres development plans however are. the results speak for themselves. 

As I’ve stated before, there is no real way to prove the point unless you were able to create an alternate universe. Would player A turn out any different if he was drafted by another team? How can you ever know? 

[tom webster]

6 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

As someone who really likes seeing old school bunk get disproven, it'd be cool if someone could do the research on this. 

There really is no way to know. 
i believe that “development” or lack thereof, is just an excuse when someone doesn’t turn out like was expected. The player blames the team. The scout blames the team. The fan who was sure Luke Adam was the next Phil Esposito blames the team, etc.

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh I think he could be very good for sure. I'd say he's our top prospect right now, but I also think he has in fact faded quite a bit, and they've asked too much from him at this point. Look at how many dumbass stick penalties he takes as an example. We need to be putting him in and out of the line up accordingly and teaching good habits not letting him develop bad ones. 

I cannot stand the way the Sabres consistently just throw players out there and say learn by playing. It's a terrible development plan and there isn't another team in the league that does that. 

On this player we mostly agree. However, I don't see him fading as much as you do. From an offensive production standpoint, he hasn't been much of a factor. But his tenacity and responsible two-way play has been good. What no one can fairly say about him is that he is a liability on the ice. 

It is more likely than not that from a developmental standpoint playing in Rochester would have been better for him. But because of the quirk in the rules that wasn't possible. You may disagree but playing in the NHL is better for him than being relegated to the juniors and dazzling down there. As it turned out, he earned his roster spot in camp. 

As you note, he has taken a number of foolish stick penalties. But it should also be acknowledged that many of them are marginal calls that don't get called against veteran players.  This guy is going to be a good player for us for a long time. I'm confident that in hindsight playing this season in Buffalo will have benefited him and the team in the long run. 

[ska-T Chitown]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

On this player we mostly agree. However, I don't see him fading as much as you do. From an offensive production standpoint, he hasn't been much of a factor. But his tenacity and responsible two-way play has been good. What no one can fairly say about him is that he is a liability on the ice. 

It is more likely than not that from a developmental standpoint playing in Rochester would have been better for him. But because of the quirk in the rules that wasn't possible. You may disagree but playing in the NHL is better for him than being relegated to the juniors and dazzling down there. As it turned out, he earned his roster spot in camp. 

As you note, he has taken a number of foolish stick penalties. But it should also be acknowledged that many of them are marginal calls that don't get called against veteran players.  This guy is going to be a good player for us for a long time. I'm confident that in hindsight playing this season in Buffalo will have benefited him and the team in the long run. 

This is a commonly held sentiment. And although it is probably objectively correct, his 10-16-26 pace (0.38 ppg in 69 games - hehe, 69) is not terribly far off JJP's 12-20-32 (0.41 ppg in 71 games last year) and it seem to recall (again, memory is a bitch) people being far higher on JJP's offense last year. I am wondering if the conversation around ZB is different because he did not get that chance to "prove" he was ready by shredding the AHL like JJP did? He is also doing it as an 18 year old while JJP was 21.

Edited March 26 by ska-T Chitown

[mjd1001]

Benson is having an interesting year.....maybe tied to Jack Quinn more than I thought.

I think Benson's year this year is behind what both Quinn and Peterka did last year overall, but again, he is younger than they were so its to be expected (at least expected by me).  

From the end of December through the beginning of February, he went though a horrible stretch, just when the team was staring to play better around him (Dec 27 - Feb 10, he played 15 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, -6, not a single game where he was a 'plus', but he was still getting 14 minutes of ice time per game.

Since then, hes played 22 games, 5 goals and 4 assists, is a +3, and is getting about the same ice time.

Yeah, its easy to pick and choose stretches were players do well and others were they don't do well, but as a Rookie, I think the last 22 games he has shown an improvement. Not only in the stats, but to me I notice him more in a positive way the last month.

 

Going back to his 15 game stretch were he basically did zero offensively.....that is the EXACT time that Quinn came back.  In the 15 games where Benson had only 1 assist, Quinn had 3 goals and 7 assists in 14 games.  Now, Benson got the same ice time (a bit over 14 minutes) as usual when Quinn was in the lineup or out of the lineup, but once Quinn played, did Benson play with different linemates then entire time, or was his usage drastically different?

So I looked into all the games Quinn played, and this is Benson's production:

In games Jack Quinn played, Benson: 16 games, 0 goals, 4 assists, -3, 14:46 minutes per game

In games Quinn hasn't played, Benson:  55 games, 9 goals, 10 assists, +2, 14:34 minutes per game.

So, maybe its usage, but he got about the same ice time, yet he scored at a 13-14 goal pace with no Quinn in the lineup...and didn't score a goal in 16 straight games with him in the lineup.

One more interesting thing about Benson...From the beginning of the Season UNTIL Quinn came back he was getting about 1.5 minutes per game on the Power Play. When Quinn came back, Benson got MORE power play time (almost 2 minutes per game, but had zero goals in that time.)  Since Quinn got hurt again, the last 23 games Benson has been taken off the power play totally (8 seconds on average per game played.)

Edited March 26 by mjd1001

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, tom webster said:

As I’ve stated before, there is no real way to prove the point unless you were able to create an alternate universe. Would player A turn out any different if he was drafted by another team? How can you ever know? 

The issue with Benson that separates him from other prospects is the quirky age and junior rule that wouldn't allow him to play in the AHL this year. I believe most people would agree that if that AHL option was available to the organization, that is where he would have started off this season. I'm in the camp who believes that this youngster is going to be a good player for us for a long time. 

[JoeSchmoe]

Does anyone think that Savoie could have a better season next year at age 20 than Benson did at 18? Seems reasonable that he would, and could be a cause for optimism. Could he put up 35pts?

[matter2003]

Probably several. 

[French Collection]

20 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Does anyone think that Savoie could have a better season next year at age 20 than Benson did at 18? Seems reasonable that he would, and could be a cause for optimism. Could he put up 35pts?

He could.

He doesn’t have the same defensive game as Benson but he has way more speed. He will be 20 next winter so he should be a bit stronger than Benson right now.

[tom webster]

37 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The issue with Benson that separates him from other prospects is the quirky age and junior rule that wouldn't allow him to play in the AHL this year. I believe most people would agree that if that AHL option was available to the organization, that is where he would have started off this season. I'm in the camp who believes that this youngster is going to be a good player for us for a long time. 

Good teams, which usually get undo credit for player development, leave players in the minors three years because they have no room for them in their lineup.

I’m of the camp that doesn’t believe Benson should be in minors. NFL teams have realized that rookie QB’s can start immediately. In the NHL it’s a little different because of age but if they can handle the physical part of the game, slowly teams will realize that nothing is gained by playing in the AHL.

[JohnC]

Attached is a WGR link from the Sabres Live Show with Kris Baker talking about the prospects in the system. This is a 19 minute segment. 

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/sabres-live-340e9/episodes/kris-baker-talks-on-sabres-prospects-in-action-in-college-a156d

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Good teams, which usually get undo credit for player development, leave players in the minors three years because they have no room for them in their lineup.

I’m of the camp that doesn’t believe Benson should be in minors. NFL teams have realized that rookie QB’s can start immediately. In the NHL it’s a little different because of age but if they can handle the physical part of the game, slowly teams will realize that nothing is gained by playing in the AHL.

Under the current system which doesn't allow him to start off in Rochester I agree with you that he should be on the big club roster. Playing in the juniors would not have served much value for him from a developmental standpoint. This is just my opinion but I believe that if the Sabres had their preference they would have started him off in Rochester if that option was available to him.