Chris simon passed

[Buffalonill]

Just very sad news We all love fights But you can't deny what's happening. They should ban it completely I'm sorry 

 

 

[JoeSchmoe]

48 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

Just very sad news We all love fights But you can't deny what's happening. They should ban it completely I'm sorry 

 

 

I said in the NHL thread... Until I see football players going at the same rate as NHL enforcers, I'll be convinced it's primarily the drugs and alcohol and not the CTE.

NHL enforcers have historically been party boys and it sounds like Simon was no different. No question the CTE doesn't help and would be responsible for a lot of other long term health impacts, but we're seriously kidding ourselves if we think it's not the drugs and alcohol ultimately knocking these guys off.

[Buffalonill]

10 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I said in the NHL thread... Until I see football players going at the same rate as NHL enforcers, I'll be convinced it's primarily the drugs and alcohol and not the CTE.

NHL enforcers have historically been party boys and it sounds like Simon was no different. No question the CTE doesn't help and would be responsible for a lot of other long term health impacts, but we're seriously kidding ourselves if we think it's not the drugs and alcohol ultimately knocking these guys off.

I mean, football is a totally different sport. You use your head for everything 

Edited March 20 by Buffalonill

[Weave]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I said in the NHL thread... Until I see football players going at the same rate as NHL enforcers, I'll be convinced it's primarily the drugs and alcohol and not the CTE.

NHL enforcers have historically been party boys and it sounds like Simon was no different. No question the CTE doesn't help and would be responsible for a lot of other long term health impacts, but we're seriously kidding ourselves if we think it's not the drugs and alcohol ultimately knocking these guys off.

You are minimizing the idea that the concussions and eventual CTE are driving the drug and alcohol abuse.  This is something that a number of the players have commented on.

And I disagree that football is equivalent to an enforcer when it comes to CTE.  Those old school enforcers were likely receiving some level of brain injury with nearly every fight. 82 game season over 8-10 seasons. 100s of fights.

Edited March 20 by Weave

[ska-T Palmtown]

15 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I said in the NHL thread... Until I see football players going at the same rate as NHL enforcers, I'll be convinced it's primarily the drugs and alcohol and not the CTE.

NHL enforcers have historically been party boys and it sounds like Simon was no different. No question the CTE doesn't help and would be responsible for a lot of other long term health impacts, but we're seriously kidding ourselves if we think it's not the drugs and alcohol ultimately knocking these guys off.

Your premise is that NHL enforcers die at a higher rate and at a younger age than the average NFL player? I have not facts to refute your hunch, but that stat from Buffalonill sorta leads me to believe your hunch might not be as spot on as you think?

(And also what Weave said about using substances to cope)

(But also not the part where Weave disagrees with the CTE stat thingy) 🙂

[Getpucksdeep]

Sad. Too young.

Boxing and MMA?

Not dismissing, just curious about the data.  

[Cityo'Rasmii]

very sad

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

I mean, football is a totally different sport. You use your head for everything 

You're making my point for me. NHL enforcers and NFL players are both prone to CTE. It's just the NHL enforcers that seem to be dying young... Likely not because of CTE, but due to the drug and alcohol culture.

Probert

Belak

Rypien

Kordic

Boogaard

Ewen

now Simon

I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Montador wasn't an enforcer so I purposely left him off the list, but he also has CTE issues.

Edited March 20 by JoeSchmoe

[JoeSchmoe]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

You are minimizing the idea that the concussions and eventual CTE are driving the drug and alcohol abuse.  This is something that a number of the players have commented on.

I would argue the drug and alcohol culture precedes the CTE. The Bob Probert story documented this pretty well for him. Hockey players like their ❄️

On a personal note, I sometimes get some pretty good bouts of anxiety after tying one on 🍺. It can last for several days after the other hangover effects have cleared up.

[Buffalonill]

40 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

You're making my point for me. NHL enforcers and NFL players are both prone to CTE. It's just the NHL enforcers that seem to be dying young... Likely not because of CTE, but due to the drug and alcohol culture.

Probert

Belak

Rypien

Kordic

Boogaard

Ewen

now Simon

I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Montador wasn't an enforcer so I purposely left him off the list, but he also has CTE issues.

But CTE Led to those problems correct ? 

 

[JoeSchmoe]

16 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

But CTE Led to those problems correct ? 

 

I call BS on that. Hockey culture led to those problems. If we saw the same phenomenon in football, I'd say it was the CTE.

On a side note, I know a couple of hockey players that both had a cup of coffee in the NHL. They're some of the biggest drinkers I know. None of them have concussion issues though.

Edited March 21 by JoeSchmoe

[Archie Lee]

4 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I said in the NHL thread... Until I see football players going at the same rate as NHL enforcers, I'll be convinced it's primarily the drugs and alcohol and not the CTE.

NHL enforcers have historically been party boys and it sounds like Simon was no different. No question the CTE doesn't help and would be responsible for a lot of other long term health impacts, but we're seriously kidding ourselves if we think it's not the drugs and alcohol ultimately knocking these guys off.

Maybe the personality type that would gravitate to being an NHL enforcer is also prone to other reckless behaviour. Maybe.
 

There are a lot of stories out there that detail the stress and anxiety that some enforcers experienced when they knew that night after night they would be called on to fight. Andrew Peters has spoken about this on his podcast. Maybe that level of anxiety contributes to the need to self medicate and the slippery slope to substance abuse.
 

Maybe it was the concussions and CTE.

Or maybe a combination of these. Regardless, these guys were/are clearly exploited. It’s long past time to remove fighting from the game. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I call BS on that. Hockey culture led to those problems. If we saw the same phenomenon in football, I'd say it was the CTE.

On a side note, I know a couple of hockey players that both had a cup of coffee in the NHL. They're some of the biggest drinkers I know. None of them have concussion issues though.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say “if” we saw the same phenomenon in football. We do see lots of CTE in football. Maybe not across all positions, but you seem to equate the number of head shots that an NHL enforcer would take over a career to that of an average NFL player. Maybe this is true, but I don’t think you have evidence of this. It could be significantly more. 

[JoeSchmoe]

13 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I’m not sure what you mean when you say “if” we saw the same phenomenon in football. We do see lots of CTE in football. Maybe not across all positions, but you seem to equate the number of head shots that an NHL enforcer would take over a career to that of an average NFL player. Maybe this is true, but I don’t think you have evidence of this. It could be significantly more. 

I'm saying both NHL and NFL players have well documented CTE post career. If CTE was the cause of the struggles with hockey players, then we'd see the same in football.

Maybe you're thinking the level of CTE is different between the two sports... It's possible but still a stretch I think compared to the lifestyle. 

Anecdotal I know, but guys like John Scott (Mechanical Engineering Major) and George Parros (Princeton Economics Major) are doing very well post career.  Closer to home our very own Rob Ray has practically rewritten the English dictionary on his own throughout his illustrious broadcasting career.

[PerreaultForever]

It's BS. You list off a small group of dumbasses and make a claim that it proves it for everyone. Why not make a list of all the fighters who are just fine and not worse than anyone else? The ones who are even NHL executives now. Smart guys. The lawyers. The players agents. On and on it's a much much much longer list. 

To the self righteous ones out there, just remember you can get CTE from falling off a bandwagon too. Be careful. Wear your helmet 24/7. 

[sabrefanday1]

The pressures that those "enforcers" faced game after game, of knowing that they had to fight the other guy who was huge and dangerous, clearly was a big reason why they would rely on booze and/or drugs to keep them from completely falling apart from that pressure.  To say that taking numeruous punches to the head does not lead to eventual dangerous repercussions is absurd. I get that some of you defend fighting as "part of the game" to support your agenda but you should go out there and try taking on some guy that is 6'6" and two hundred and fifty pounds of muscle. Mind you I still find it amazing that Tie Domi, who took numerous nasty punches and laughed, is still seemingly "normal" whatever that is...    

Edited March 21 by sabrefanday1

[That Aud Smell]

Rest in peace.

I also think that the point being made above - really the question being asked - is a potentially interesting one.

Is the rate of suicide higher among old school NHL enforcers than among other professional athletes, especially NFL players and even more especially NFL players from bygone eras who played in the most CTE-inducing positions?

The adjacent point made above about how stressful it was to be an old school NHL enforcer seems like a compelling one. 

[#freejame]

CTE is an issue no doubt, just like head injuries are an issue with veteran suicides. But alcoholism and depression are, in my opinion, the more significant issues more than likely. Regardless, it’s all a cycle that inevitably perpetuates itself. 

[That Aud Smell]

I was surprised by this report regarding a 2016 study performed by the CDC:

Researchers from the CDC's National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) analyzed suicide death rate data on 3,439 retired NFL players. All the men played football for the NFL for at least five seasons between 1959 and 1988. The scientists compared the findings with the suicide death rate for men matched for race and age in the general population.

They found that the rate of suicide among the former NFL players was actually lower than the suicide rate in the general population. Between 1979 to 2013, there were 12 suicide deaths in the NFL group compared with 25 suicide deaths in the group of other men, according to the study published in the American Journal of Sports Medicine.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-findings-on-former-nfl-players-and-suicide-risk/

[That Aud Smell]

And many may recall that recent study done on NHL enforcers specifically. @JoeSchmoe has a point here.

+++

A study of former NHLers published last year showed enforcers lived significantly shorter lives than their peers.

Researchers at New York's Columbia University came to that conclusion after analyzing data from more than 6,000 players from 1967 through the spring of 2022.

The study found enforcers died on average a decade younger than comparable peers drafted at the same rank, similar height and weight, and at the same position.

The researchers did not find more deaths among the NHL enforcers than in the control group.

"However, being an enforcer was associated with dying approximately 10 years earlier and more frequently of suicide and drug overdose than matched controls," the study read.

...

The 2023 study found striking differences in causes of death between the enforcers and their fellow players.

Two neurodegenerative disorder deaths, two drug overdoses, three suicides and four vehicular crashes were attributed to the 331 players identified as enforcers/fighters, compared to just one car crash death among the age-matched control group.

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/simon-s-family-says-ex-enforcer-died-by-suicide-strongly-believes-cte-played-role-1.2092785#:~:text=Two neurodegenerative disorder deaths%2C two,the age-matched control group.

Edited March 21 by That Aud Smell

[Sabres Fan in NS]

A young man dies by suicide.

Does it really matter the underlying issues that lead to him taking his life?

Not to me.

We as a society need to do better.

RIP.

[JoeSchmoe]

3 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

A young man dies by suicide.

Does it really matter the underlying issues that lead to him taking his life?

Not to me.

We as a society need to do better.

RIP.

If we can accurately assess what the underlying issues are we can do better as a society to prevent future players from taking their own lives.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, JoeSchmoe said:

If we can accurately assess what the underlying issues are we can do better as a society to prevent future players from taking their own lives.

My comment was not player based.  More a general observation.  Sure, study player deaths.  We need to be better at recognizing issues that people are dealing with and helping them deal with them.

A good friend took his life at 18.  We were in High School - set to graduate in the spring.  None of us recognized the signs.  It shakes me to this day.  40+ years later.

[GoPuckYourself]

Chris simon had some of the best fights I've seen growing up. He was 1 of the few fighters who destroyed Bob Probert, Tie Domi and Derek Boogard. Rest in paradise! 

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

A young man dies by suicide.

Does it really matter the underlying issues that lead to him taking his life?

Not to me.

Respectfully - it matters a lot. 

"A young woman dies from cancer. Does it really matter the underlying issues that led to her incurable cancer?"

There are medical issues at play here, albeit tricky ones because they involve illness that is behavioral in nature.

It matters very much to know and understand if there are common underlying issues that led to this former enforcer's death. That knowledge and understanding may help prevent other deaths from similar causes.