Is the Sabres biggest issue upfront the lack of an elite forward?

[PerreaultForever]

37 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Tage would be on there if not for the poor 2023-24 season. 

Tage does not play like an elite forward. Tage plays like a sniper who needs another elite forward to drive the play and set him up for the snipe. 

He does represent what we have well though. Talented individuals, lack of team play, and inconsistent efforts. 

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Tage does not play like an elite forward. Tage plays like a sniper who needs another elite forward to drive the play and set him up for the snipe. 

He does represent what we have well though. Talented individuals, lack of team play, and inconsistent efforts. 

I’d still say he’s elite unless you want to say the same about Pasta in Boston. 

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I’d still say he’s elite unless you want to say the same about Pasta in Boston. 

Barring another injury, I think Tage gets at least 50 goals next year.

[PerreaultForever]

57 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I’d still say he’s elite unless you want to say the same about Pasta in Boston. 

Pasta is a sniper, sure, but there's a world of difference in their style of play as well. Contrary to what the casual Bruins viewer might think Pasta can drive the play and be a very good passer. He looks for Zacha almost as much as Zacha looks for him. The big difference though is Pasta will battle for the puck and go to heavy traffic areas. This is why he is elite like Crosby and McDavid and others. Tage isn't in that group imo. 

[oddoublee]

Thompson is the only player with the potential of the players you listed. And he showed he can't guarantee a multi year stretch of it.

Cozens...nope. at best a CONSISTENT 60 point producer. Not a bad thing...just not elite.

Skinner, Lord help us all.

JJ, like Cozens, good, but probably a peak 55-70 point season is what you'll see.

Quinn, we simply don't know.

Tuch, 60 point average season player most likely.

In our top 6, we do not have 2 players who can be counted on for a point per game.

This team is shallow offensively...which can work if you have an identity in other ways/areas.

If anyone can tell me of this magical identity we have that leads to success, I'm all ears

[Carmel Corn]

The Sabres lack an elite forward who can carry the puck thru the neutral zone with speed and into the offensive zone while maintaining control/possession.  Tage has shown no ability to do so this season.   Gotta say Jack Eichel was pretty good at doing this and the Sabres miss that kind of player.

[SabreFinn]

There are missing pieces, and there are more of them after trade deadline than before, which is a shame since they were playing their best hockey this season. It is a tough situation for the players, even if they got a exciting and skillful player in return I think GM pulled the rug from under there feet. But they would not have made playoff anyway, so he did what he had to do.

Some of you think our GM is really stupid. He might be a little stupid, but he ain't that stupid that he does make these trades without a plan how to fill the holes and try to improve the roster. I honestly do not think so. But we have to wait until offseason. I do not think he will try to do it with own prospects. I do not think we are going in to next season with five of six best defenders playing left. And not with Jeff Skinner on our first line. I think that he might pay a player 7m this summer also, but that player has to be better than Mitts, with higher ceiling and the player has to get Thompson going again.But I doubt he bring in veterans, it should have been done many years ago, now is too late, but the players he bring here need to be competitive. If he get muscles and grit I will be very surprised. And the coach will be fired if they are not on a playoff spot a week or two before Thanksgiving.

Predictions. Next year we are playing division finals against Toronto.

A boring spring is coming this year, but as someone mentioned already, there are still a lot of good hockey games out there.

 

[Xzy89c]

Thompson is proving to be a winger. He is not an elite anything except goal scorer when: healthy and center of power play. Cozens has a ways to go to to play as well as last year let alone be an elite center. 

Some of the guys listed are not elite centers

[Thorner]

23 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I’d still say he’s elite unless you want to say the same about Pasta in Boston. 

What? Their track records aren’t even close to comparable 

23 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Barring another injury, I think Tage gets at least 50 goals next year.

Maybe 70

22 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Pasta is a sniper, sure, but there's a world of difference in their style of play as well. Contrary to what the casual Bruins viewer might think Pasta can drive the play and be a very good passer. He looks for Zacha almost as much as Zacha looks for him. The big difference though is Pasta will battle for the puck and go to heavy traffic areas. This is why he is elite like Crosby and McDavid and others. Tage isn't in that group imo. 

Someone was arguing with me last year that Tage was Eric Lindros. We should be thankful the comp is merely now Pastrnak 

[kas23]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:22 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Tage isn’t close.  Last year was a career year and won’t be repeated. 

Maybe not, but I expect him to at least get back to his 21-22 level then. If he can’t, either he’s perennially injured or he needs a new coach. 

[Dryballs]

Before we can truly judge GM KA, we need to see if any of our high level prospects can play complement to our (very good/damn good) rostered forwards. The Sabres have some undeniable upper-level talent. 

Edited March 10 by Dryballs

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

What? Their track records aren’t even close to comparable 

Maybe 70

Someone was arguing with me last year that Tage was Eric Lindros. We should be thankful the comp is merely now Pastrnak 

and it's very wrong. 

Elite players have a much larger bag of tricks to draw from. Tage is a very predictable player. Elite players are also more consistent.

Today against Edmonton they showed that goal from the previous meeting where he stick handled around people and the goalie in front. If he did that a lot rather than just shoot all the time it would be a different conversation. They mentioned Mario Lemieux like and on that play he was, and his body says he could be at that elite level, but as is he lacks the creativity and probably the desire. 

He's good. At times he's very good. But he's not great. 

[thewookie1]

22 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

and it's very wrong. 

Elite players have a much larger bag of tricks to draw from. Tage is a very predictable player. Elite players are also more consistent.

Today against Edmonton they showed that goal from the previous meeting where he stick handled around people and the goalie in front. If he did that a lot rather than just shoot all the time it would be a different conversation. They mentioned Mario Lemieux like and on that play he was, and his body says he could be at that elite level, but as is he lacks the creativity and probably the desire. 

He's good. At times he's very good. But he's not great. 

Just last season he did that frequently; he literally looked like a lesser version of Lemieux until he got hurt last year so I'm not sure where this uncreative BS is coming from. The guy has plenty of desire; he's played through injuries both last season near the end and most of this year off and on.  

 He scored a plethora of goals like that EDM one from last year as well as his trademark shot. His biggest issue this year seems to me that his wrist may still have issues or his back potentially and that has made him have great difficulty doing his old rope-a-dope with his reach due to the lack of strength he can put on the puck at distance which would require usage of wrist and lower back muscles. 

He's a great/elite talent player whose merely good when banged up. That being said most players play worse when dealing with injury issues.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

Just last season he did that frequently; he literally looked like a lesser version of Lemieux until he got hurt last year so I'm not sure where this uncreative BS is coming from. The guy has plenty of desire; he's played through injuries both last season near the end and most of this year off and on.  

 He scored a plethora of goals like that EDM one from last year as well as his trademark shot. His biggest issue this year seems to me that his wrist may still have issues or his back potentially and that has made him have great difficulty doing his old rope-a-dope with his reach due to the lack of strength he can put on the puck at distance which would require usage of wrist and lower back muscles. 

He's a great/elite talent player whose merely good when banged up. That being said most players play worse when dealing with injury issues.

So your belief is simply that it's on the injuries and next year he will be healthy and a superstar? Correct? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:23 PM, thewookie1 said:

I’d still say he’s elite unless you want to say the same about Pasta in Boston.

LOL.  Pasta has been great since his 3rd season in Boston and has never even had a hint of an off year since.  The guy has 710 points in 658 games and while he has always been an elite goal scorer, he has become an elite playmaker.  

This season, without Bergeron, Pasta has 40 goals in 66 games, and has added 53 assists.  This follows his 113 point season last year.  Pasta in a top 10 forward in the NHL.  TNT isn't even in the same universe as a player.  Tage's 97point season was an aberration. 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

So your belief is simply that it's on the injuries and next year he will be healthy and a superstar? Correct? 

Yes; maybe not a super star but at least a star..

51 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL.  Pasta has been great since his 3rd season in Boston and has never even had a hint of an off year since.  The guy has 710 points in 658 games and while he has always been an elite goal scorer, he has become an elite playmaker.  

This season, without Bergeron, Pasta has 40 goals in 66 games, and has added 53 assists.  This follows his 113 point season last year.  Pasta in a top 10 forward in the NHL.  TNT isn't even in the same universe as a player.  Tage's 97point season was an aberration. 

I get it, you hate Thompson but to say it was an aberration after an injury filled year is asinine. 

 

Additionally my comment comparing Thompson to Pasta was in regards to 

On 3/8/2024 at 3:59 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Tage does not play like an elite forward. Tage plays like a sniper who needs another elite forward to drive the play and set him up for the snipe. 

 not in a direct 1 to 1 comparison. I was saying that you can't penalize Tage for being a sniper while Pasta gets kudos for it in the same vain. That description summed up Pasta until a couple years ago and he had the great advantage of playing with a skilled anthropomorphic rat and the part time owner of the Selke timeshare.

Also

On 3/8/2024 at 7:23 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Pasta is a sniper, sure, but there's a world of difference in their style of play as well. Contrary to what the casual Bruins viewer might think Pasta can drive the play and be a very good passer. He looks for Zacha almost as much as Zacha looks for him. The big difference though is Pasta will battle for the puck and go to heavy traffic areas. This is why he is elite like Crosby and McDavid and others. Tage isn't in that group imo. 

Pasta isn't in the Crosby/McDavid tier; so get that notion out of here altogether. He's an elite player but no generational superstar.

Tage would slot into the category below him in the "star" area. Also this notion that Tage doesn't battle for the puck is ridiculous and going into heavy traffic areas isn't a fair complaint because a man his size can't exactly skate into a mosh of players without being hooked or grabbed just by size alone. (Makes it rather difficult to grab the puck and get it out of there) Just because he doesn't bowl through players like prime Lindros doesn't make him soft or disinterested. Tage had plenty of assists the last two years and seemed perfectly capable of leading his line when healthy. 

This is what I have issue with, a player has a bad year in part due to injuries and he is effectively crucified for it whereas last year people proclaimed he was superior to Eichel. Make up your freaking minds. 

Edited March 10 by thewookie1

[PerreaultForever]

55 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Yes; maybe not a super star but at least a star..

I get it, you hate Thompson but to say it was an aberration after an injury filled year is asinine. 

 

Additionally my comment comparing Thompson to Pasta was in regards to 

 not in a direct 1 to 1 comparison. I was saying that you can't penalize Tage for being a sniper while Pasta gets kudos for it in the same vain. That description summed up Pasta until a couple years ago and he had the great advantage of playing with a skilled anthropomorphic rat and the part time owner of the Selke timeshare.

Also

Pasta isn't in the Crosby/McDavid tier; so get that notion out of here altogether. He's an elite player but no generational superstar.

Tage would slot into the category below him in the "star" area. Also this notion that Tage doesn't battle for the puck is ridiculous and going into heavy traffic areas isn't a fair complaint because a man his size can't exactly skate into a mosh of players without being hooked or grabbed just by size alone. (Makes it rather difficult to grab the puck and get it out of there) Just because he doesn't bowl through players like prime Lindros doesn't make him soft or disinterested. Tage had plenty of assists the last two years and seemed perfectly capable of leading his line when healthy. 

This is what I have issue with, a player has a bad year in part due to injuries and he is effectively crucified for it whereas last year people proclaimed he was superior to Eichel. Make up your freaking minds. 

You are exaggerating. I do not "hate" Thompson and I do not "crucify" him. I do however think he lacks the compete level that some of the true superstars have. With his body, he could be so much more than he is. 

If you are suggesting 3 tiers, as in Crosby top tier, Past second tier, Thompson third I have no argument with that, but I wouldn't make all 3 tiers elite. That's just a question of where you draw the line on a word. Doesn't actually mean all that much. 

[Second Line Center]

40 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You are exaggerating. I do not "hate" Thompson and I do not "crucify" him. I do however think he lacks the compete level that some of the true superstars have.

I think guys like him had to work so hard just to make it - he was almost a bust.  Now he’s a number 1C with a big contract - so Tage, we’re going to need you to now lead this group of kids to the playoffs and a Cup.

We got several of them to figure out how to be productive; figuring out how to win consistently is another thing.   

And I think that’s kind of how I see this team and why it’s more about the coaching.  Stop coddling them publicly or seeming to be so concerned with hurting feelings and get them to hate losing more then loving to win.  

The benching of Skinner and JPP today might just be a sign that the organization and DG are headed toward that now.  Guys need to feel uncomfortable and that’s ok.  So long as they know why they only played 7 minutes.  More importantly like today, we win the game.  Giving decisions like that made by DG credibility. 

Edited March 10 by Second Line Center

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

You are exaggerating. I do not "hate" Thompson and I do not "crucify" him. I do however think he lacks the compete level that some of the true superstars have. With his body, he could be so much more than he is. 

If you are suggesting 3 tiers, as in Crosby top tier, Past second tier, Thompson third I have no argument with that, but I wouldn't make all 3 tiers elite. That's just a question of where you draw the line on a word. Doesn't actually mean all that much. 

The hate comment was actually about Gfan 

Yes I was alluding to a 3 tier system

Generational Superstar - Legitimate dominant forces that change franchises with their mere existence 

SuperStar - Elite players whom consistently contribute and at times will dominate

Star - Elite Talents whom contribute at a less consistent level and can but occasionally dominate 

To me an elite player requires you to have the ability to take over a game. Tage and Dahlin have done so would land in the Star Rank for me personally; Dahlin is right on that cusp of superstar seeing as he did that for a good portion of last season until his injury at the All Star break derailed it. Tage is a star but no where near consistent enough to be a superstar. Star and Superstar are possible to migrate between but generational talents are pretty much an exclusive club with tickets given to a few but only cashed in on by the likes of McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, and perhaps Bedard will fully join it.

[Sidc3000]

On 3/8/2024 at 1:24 PM, Porous Five Hole said:

Why is Tage not considered elite? Because he’s been hurt all year?

The guy scored 47 last year which was sixth highest in the league. 

One season isn’t exactly proof

[mjd1001]

10 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Just last season he did that frequently; he literally looked like a lesser version of Lemieux until he got hurt last year so I'm not sure where this uncreative BS is coming from. The guy has plenty of desire; he's played through injuries both last season near the end and most of this year off and on.  

 He scored a plethora of goals like that EDM one from last year as well as his trademark shot. His biggest issue this year seems to me that his wrist may still have issues or his back potentially and that has made him have great difficulty doing his old rope-a-dope with his reach due to the lack of strength he can put on the puck at distance which would require usage of wrist and lower back muscles. 

He's a great/elite talent player whose merely good when banged up. That being said most players play worse when dealing with injury issues.

I posted about a week ago showing his drop in production from his 'career' best year is almost the same percentage as the drop in production Matthews had last year (coming off his previous career) year due to a wrist injury.  I think Matthews goals dropped 33% the year he had the wrist injury, and when I posted it, Thompson was scoring 33% less also.  Now, I don't know the severity of each of their injuries, but what we do know is both had them, and both played through them.

Its for that reason, I really think if he gets 'healed up' in the offseason, there is a good chance he comes back next year and approaches or gets 50 goals.

Here is the math from my previous post if anyone wants to see if it has changed in the past couple weeks:

 

He has a wrist injury. Sometimes that injury can heal enough that you can play, but it can impact production big time from scorers.

Who else had a wrist injury that he played through? Look 1.5 hours north to Austin Matthews.

2 seasons before his wrist injury: 41 goals in 52 games (65 goal pace per 82)

1 season before his wrist injury:  60 goals in 73 games (67 goal per 82 pace).

Year he played through the wrist injury: 40 goals in 74 games (44 goal per 82 pace)

Year after his wrist injury: 53 goals in 58 games (75 goal pace)

So, a guy who is a big time scorer averaged 66 goals per 82 games without a wrist injury....the season he plays through a wrist injury his goal production drops 33% the season he has the injury....then when he gets a full year off his production goes back up to (and beyond) what it was before the injury.

Now Tage...

2 seasons before his wrist injury: 38 goals in 78 games (40 goal pace)

1 season before his wrist injury: 47 goals in 78 games (almost a 50 goal pace)

year of his wrist injury (this year) 18 goals in 50 games (30 goal pace)

With Tage, a guy who is a big time scorer averaged 45 goals per 82 games without a wrist injury...the season he plays through it his goal production drops 33% the season he has the injury...With a full season off to heal his wrist, AND in his prime at 27 years of age, is there a chance he exceeds is prior production? Maybe.

The naysayers will say no...but I like to bring this up as a possible positive.  Tage isn't Matthews, but the similarities in their injury, in how it impacts production at the same time and the same point...very similar.   Something to think about.

I looked into one other things....Matthews shooting percentage those 2 seasons before his wrist injury was 17.7. It went down to 12.2 the year of his injury (5.5 points lower).  He took about the same number of shots per game (4.4 vs 4.6), just his percentage was down.

Tage's shooting percentage the 2 years before his wrist injury this year was 15.5. It is down to 10.0 this year....(5.5 points lower). He has taken about the same number of shots per game (3.5 vs 3.6) but his percentage is just down.

Edited March 10 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

I think guys like him had to work so hard just to make it - he was almost a bust.  Now he’s a number 1C with a big contract - so Tage, we’re going to need you to now lead this group of kids to the playoffs and a Cup.

We got several of them to figure out how to be productive; figuring out how to win consistently is another thing.   

And I think that’s kind of how I see this team and why it’s more about the coaching.  Stop coddling them publicly or seeming to be so concerned with hurting feelings and get them to hate losing more then loving to win.  

The benching of Skinner and JPP today might just be a sign that the organization and DG are headed toward that now.  Guys need to feel uncomfortable and that’s ok.  So long as they know why they only played 7 minutes.  More importantly like today, we win the game.  Giving decisions like that made by DG credibility. 

This is true, but part of it comes from the organization's decision to "let them grow together" and not balance the team with solid veterans. This goes right back to two things imo. One, the tank. Stripped away any identity and culture the team had, even if it was less than perfect. Rebuilding from that was handled poorly. Two, naming Eichel captain instead of ROR. They chose talent over character and coddling Eichel and others led us down this rabbit hole. 

Not sure we can get out of it with a roster filled with players who as Shorsey would say "don't hate losing". 

[#freejame]

Star power is about marketing as much as it is skill:

Tier 1: Opposing teams buy jerseys, people pay money to see the player in person, cards and used memorabilia sells for significant amount, every hockey fan knows name

Tier 2: Hockey fans tune in to watch the player, appears in NHL marketing, among top 3 in team jersey sales, casual hockey fan knows name 

Tier 3: A team’s main draw, featured in team marketing and promotions, local market and above average NHL fans know the name  

Pasta is somewhere between a one and a two. Tage is somewhere between a two and a three.