Casey Mittelstadt traded for Bowen Byram

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

And/or that they don't have Nathan MacKinnon setting the pace or the tone?

Do people actually find it particularly revelatory the Avalanche practice and play faster than the Sabres?

Don't the Avalanche play faster than pretty much everybody?

Hasn't Granato been urging the team to play faster all season long?

This is not an endorsement of Granato, it's my attempt to point out that there is an equally plausible argument that Mitts' comment illustrates that the Sabres players are immature. That's been their story all season. Those are the cards the coach has been dealt.

Suddenly surrounded by talented, driven adults, maybe it's dawning on Casey that there really is another level.

Or let me put it this way, you add MacKinnon to the Sabres and Granato would suddenly become a much-better coach.

Lindy Ruff coached the Sabres to 82, 72 and 85-point seasons from 2002-05 — or basically 3 straight years of what we have watched this year.

And then Darcy gave him Chris Drury.

Excellent post, as always, but those early 2000's Sabres teams didn't have the the talent that this Sabres team does.

I'll also note that Tuch is 27 -- the same age as Drury was when he was traded to Buffalo.  And Tage is 26. 

I could be wrong but I really think someone like Torts or Laviolette would get much more out of this team than DG has.

 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, ... said:

I'm not talking about any of them, I am talking specifically about Granato.

They figured it out. He can't. He's not smart or creative enough. The only asset he would have left after those to tap into would be experience and he has none of that, either.

27 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

That is not correct... he is a technical teacher and developer... what he is learning on the fly is being a motivated hard nose bench coach... can he get there? He has had a few moments but I am not sure he has it in him to take it to the next level and I think that is what we see.

Each or both of you might be right about the particulars, but there is no arguing with the results.  Not even close to good enough.  And if there are no significant changes, it just seems inevitable that next year will be a repeat of this year.

FWIW, the vibe I get is that the team likes him, but generally treats him like substitute teacher -- i.e. nothing to get too concerned about.

[Doohicksie]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

12 hours ago, ... said:

This is what happens when you hire milquetoast people who have never played in the NHL.

Meatballs will never understand what it takes to compete at the NHL or even AHL level because he's never experienced it.

Jared Bednar

Jon Cooper

Barry Trotz

Not exactly the best argument I've seen for rejecting a coach.

...Scotty Bowman has entered the chat.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, ... said:

I'm not talking about any of them, I am talking specifically about Granato.

They figured it out. He can't. He's not smart or creative enough. The only asset he would have left after those to tap into would be experience and he has none of that, either.

Donny is smart and creative.   Looking at the list of successful coaches that never played in the NHL, they are all extremely demanding hard *****.  So far Donny is not.  

I for one think that DG looks to be maxed out as a coach for this team.  DG has to demand more and make them pay when they don't play right.  Most players want that and they thrive on the higher expectations.  He will be given another year so we are going to see.  

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Don't the Avalanche play faster than pretty much everybody?

This is not an endorsement of Granato, it's my attempt to point out that there is an equally plausible argument that Mitts' comment illustrates that the Sabres players are immature. That's been their story all season. Those are the cards the coach has been dealt.

Suddenly surrounded by talented, driven adults, maybe it's dawning on Casey that there really is another level.

“Equally plausible argument”…now we’re talkin’!

 

Edited March 21 by Thorny

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, ... said:

Those coaches have proved they get it.

Our coach has proved he does not and, because of his lack of experience, never will at this point.

Or are we happy to have the coach of the Sabres learn how to coach at the NHL level on the fly?  How much time should we give Meatballs?

 

If you're a parent, have you ever had people who have never had kids try and explain to you how to raise kids? People who have never had children will never understand what it's like to have children.

How is basically any other task different?

 

This is bad folk wisdom; unqualified advice.

Why learn from people who have never achieved any level of success in the task they're trying to teach? After a certain point in the "teaching", the teacher is just making guesses having never achieved beyond a certain level.

 

So what? He never played at the AHL or NHL level. He has no idea what his players are going through or what it takes as an individual to succeed at those levels.

The Sabres' record under him is PROOF of this. He can only get them so far.

 

Meatballs doesn't know what it takes to coach players at the NHL level to be successful because he has never done it himself and, unlike some other coaches who weren't players but were successful NHL coaches, isn't smart or creative enough to figure out what it takes.

Mitts' comments, and others like it, are coming from people who HAVE played NHL hockey and are super informative. Why discount the experience of real NHL players and the actual record when it comes to evaluating the ability of Meatballs? It's crazy to dismiss this input.

Congrats you managed to get an X from me and Hank at the same time, platinum achievement

its not unqualified advice I’m just quoting a common saying frivolously. It’s not that serious, believe me 

[...]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Congrats you managed to get an X from me and Hank at the same time, platinum achievement

[K-9]

3 hours ago, ... said:

If you're a parent, have you ever had people who have never had kids try and explain to you how to raise kids? People who have never had children will never understand what it's like to have children.

How is basically any other task different?

I’ve been a parent for years and you’re right; there’s no manual for the task. And as a parent, I will say that it is different from every other task in the world.

Does one have to have visited the moon to be able to teach others how to get there?

Edited March 21 by K-9

[Flashsabre]

Do I think Granato is a bad coach, no. Would I like to see a new staff for next year, yes.

The issue is not replacing Granato it is who would be replacing him.

The team needs a proven, vet NHL coaching staff that demands respect and have proven how to win at the NHL level.

Replacing Granato with Seth Appert isn’t a step forward. And looking at Pegula’s history as owner that is the type of move I would expect.

[...]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I’ve been a parent for years and you’re right; there’s no manual for the task. And as a parent, I will say that it is different from every other task in the world.

Does one nave to have visited the moon to be able to teach others how to get there?

This analogy is so Incongruous that it's reductio ad absurdume.

Now if you were to use reaching the top of Mount Everest as your analogy then it wouldn't be as ridiculous.

[Thorner]

38 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I’ve been a parent for years and you’re right; there’s no manual for the task. And as a parent, I will say that it is different from every other task in the world.

Does one have to have visited the moon to be able to teach others how to get there?

The moon only wants people who want to be there 

[North Buffalo]

Just now, Thorny said:

The moon only wants people who want to be there 

Did you confer with the Man?

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, ... said:

This analogy is so Incongruous that it's reductio ad absurdume.

Now if you were to use reaching the top of Mount Everest as your analogy then it wouldn't be as ridiculous.

Glad the absurdity wasn’t lost on you as your own ridiculous comparison to raising children wasn’t lost on me earlier. 

If the going to the moon comparison was too much for you, let’s dumb it down a bit. Please explain Scotty Bowman, Bill Belichick, Gregg Popovich, Vince Lombardi, etc.. I could go on ad nauseam (look ma, more pretentious use of Latin). 

Bottom line is you are simply wrong when saying one has to have experienced the lessen before he can teach it. 

Discipulus dimisit.
 

 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Glad the absurdity wasn’t lost on you as your own ridiculous comparison to raising children wasn’t lost on me earlier. 

If the going to the moon comparison was too much for you, let’s dumb it down a bit. Please explain Scotty Bowman, Bill Belichick, Gregg Popovich, Vince Lombardi, etc.. I could go on ad nauseam (look ma, more pretentious use of Latin). 

Bottom line is you are simply wrong when saying one has to have experienced the lessen before he can teach it. 

Discipulus dimisit.
 

 

I may be a lot of things but I’m not a duplicitous dipsh*t

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

...Scotty Bowman has entered the chat.

Why the eyeroll, @...?  Bowman didn't play above junior level and is the winningest coach in NHL history (and it's not even close).

[K-9]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I may be a lot of things but I’m not a duplicitous dipsh*t

You lost me here. 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

You lost me here. 

A deliberate misreading of your last line 

[...]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Why the eyeroll, @...?  Bowman didn't play above junior level and is the winningest coach in NHL history (and it's not even close).

I've answered these attempts to level the field several times already. I am speaking about Granato.

These other people figured it out by having the personal attributes that allowed them to figure it out. Granato is no match for Bowman's acumen. Not smart enough, not creative enough. Granato has shown absolutely no progress or aptitude as a NHL coach beyond what we have already seen.

[K-9]

15 minutes ago, ... said:

I've answered these attempts to level the field several times already. I am speaking about Granato.

These other people figured it out by having the personal attributes that allowed them to figure it out. Granato is no match for Bowman's acumen. Not smart enough, not creative enough. Granato has shown absolutely no progress or aptitude as a NHL coach beyond what we have already seen.

That Granato is not Bowman or any other championship coach is obvious. But that doesn’t make you correct about the argument you put forth that a coach needs to experience the grind of AHL or NHL playoff success as a player as a prerequisite for the job.

[ska-T Palmtown]

18 minutes ago, ... said:

I've answered these attempts to level the field several times already. I am speaking about Granato.

These other people figured it out by having the personal attributes that allowed them to figure it out. Granato is no match for Bowman's acumen. Not smart enough, not creative enough. Granato has shown absolutely no progress or aptitude as a NHL coach beyond what we have already seen.

I don't necessarily disagree that DM might not have what it takes to be a successful NHL coach - but the "he didn't play high level hockey" argument is a strange hill to die on when other posters have provided contradicting examples at a 2 or 3 to 1 rate.

As an aside:

Not to detract from "Bowman's acumen" - but other than his early success with the expansion Blues; he took over the defending SC champion Montreal team. With only slight hyperbole, I feel like I could lead a team with Henri Richard, Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson, and Ken Dryden to many victories. No cups were won in Buffalo while he was there. Again, in Pittsburgh took over a defending SC champion team. And coaching the early 1990's Pens to any kind of success probably required 5 active brain cells. 

Then he went to mid 1990's - early 2000's Detroit - lol. Osgood and eventually Hasek in net. Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Lidstrom, Fetisov, (a few other "ovs"), Shanahan, Holmstrom, Cheap-shot-Chelie, Luc Robitaille, Datsyuk ... yes, I can see how great of a hockey mind you must need to win with that group, lol.

[...]

29 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That Granato is not Bowman or any other championship coach is obvious. But that doesn’t make you correct about the argument you put forth that a coach needs to experience the grind of AHL or NHL playoff success as a player as a prerequisite for the job.

I said:

"This is what happens when you hire milquetoast people who have never played in the NHL.

Meatballs will never understand what it takes to compete at the NHL or even AHL level because he's never experienced it."

Are those other coaches "milquetoast people"?

No. I singled out Meatballs.

You're bent out of shape over your strawman. Ira faxit stultitiam.

[LTS]

54 minutes ago, ... said:

I've answered these attempts to level the field several times already. I am speaking about Granato.

These other people figured it out by having the personal attributes that allowed them to figure it out. Granato is no match for Bowman's acumen. Not smart enough, not creative enough. Granato has shown absolutely no progress or aptitude as a NHL coach beyond what we have already seen.

"They figured it out". Well, that's pretty obvious. However, it's not accurate to say Granato never will. In this thread there are others discussing the lack of a certain personality on the team or a lack of a certain skill within the player base.  That matters as well.

There's no one thing that is the problem here (other than the owner). 

It's often said that the best players actually make terrible coaches and I think that's been in evidence in many different sports.  So, experience playing isn't an indicator of being a great coach any more than lack of experience.

Bottom line no one "gets it" until they do.  So everyone is failure until they succeed.  Just because they have not yet does not mean they are incapable of doing so. And in some cases just because they never do doesn't mean they suck.  Dan Marino isn't considered a bad QB.  He never won the Superb Owl.

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said:

I don't necessarily disagree that DM might not have what it takes to be a successful NHL coach - but the "he didn't play high level hockey" argument is a strange hill to die on when other posters have provided contradicting examples at a 2 or 3 to 1 rate.

As an aside:

Not to detract from "Bowman's acumen" - but other than his early success with the expansion Blues; he took over the defending SC champion Montreal team. With only slight hyperbole, I feel like I could lead a team with Henri Richard, Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson, and Ken Dryden to many victories. No cups were won in Buffalo while he was there. Again, in Pittsburgh took over a defending SC champion team. And coaching the early 1990's Pens to any kind of success probably required 5 active brain cells. 

Then he went to mid 1990's - early 2000's Detroit - lol. Osgood and eventually Hasek in net. Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Lidstrom, Fetisov, (a few other "ovs"), Shanahan, Holmstrom, Cheap-shot-Chelie, Luc Robitaille, Datsyuk ... yes, I can see how great of a hockey mind you must need to win with that group, lol.

You raise a good point that is true in all team sports leagues: they are all players’ leagues. I’m not discounting the importance of great coaching, especially at key moments in the contest,  but it’s always been the players who make great coaches and not the other way around. I’ve had the good fortune to talk to several pro coaches in a few different sports over the decades and they’ve all said the same thing.

The greatest strategists and tacticians just can’t get it done without the talent to execute the plan. As the old saying goes, it’s about the Jimmies and Joes and not the Xs and Os.

[ska-T Palmtown]

11 minutes ago, ... said:

I said:

"This is what happens when you hire milquetoast people who have never played in the NHL.

Meatballs will never understand what it takes to compete at the NHL or even AHL level because he's never experienced it."

Are those other coaches "milquetoast people"?

No. I singled out Meatballs.

You're bent out of shape over your strawman. Ira faxit stultitiam.

I wanted to say "but you can't hire a milquetoast with NHL experience" ... then I remembered who coaches our vaunted PP. If that was your point all along, I formally withdraw my objection.

[Thorner]

Melba toast clears