Casey Mittelstadt traded for Bowen Byram

[Rasmus_]

Isn't this a Byram thread?  He's looked smooth and looks like a win on the back end so far.

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Message board 101: there’s always something to complain or bitch about😃

No good players, Not enough good players to compete, Too many good players will mess up the cap and these imaginary windows will close.

Why do some posters think a conversation is complaining or bitching?   Isn't this what the board is for.  Should we all think alike? 

This is fans discussing and problem solving a problem they have no control over - that why fans are short for fanatic!  

As a life long Sabres fan since game 1, I am pleased to finally have enough talent in the system to actually be thinking about the Salary Cap.  

Edited March 13 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The potential issue we are discussing is not next year, it is the year after.  

All teams have to manage the Cap but the Sabres are the only team I know that paid a then 20 year old defenseman $8M/year after 87 NHL games.  How he develops in the next 2 years is going to continue to be a source of discussion.  Not so much because people don't like Power, everyone knows that most defenseman take time.  But more for the decision by Adams to lock him up so fast.   Depending on how much of the cap Adams will allocate to defense, Adams may have created less room to maneuver, not more.  

A few people on the board are talking about "Power hate".  Nothing I say comes from hate.   I am pointing out that things could get very interesting after next season with Byram, Peterka, UPL, and Quinn all looking for a payday.   Players that we cannot afford to keep will be traded before they can walk away.  We may be very surprised by who stays and who goes.  Wayne Gretzky got traded, any player can get traded.  

 

I don't put you in the category of hating Power. Where I have a nuanced disagreement with you is that I have a higher opinion of him as a player now and projecting his play in the future. I'll even go farther in projecting that from a talent/salary ratio: I believe that in locking him up sooner than he needed to the GM will in the end have gotten a better contract deal than if he waited to sign him to an extended deal. We shall see.  

 

4 hours ago, DHawerchuk10 said:

I'm curious as to why you think he is not soft.  My expectations for Power are fairly low when it comes to physical play, but he almost looks like he is allergic to touching other players.

To be clear, I don't expect Power to run guys through the boards.  But to be an even marginal defenseman in the NHL, you have to clear forwards from the front of the net, and use your body to position opponents off along the boards or in the slot (e.g. Tallinder or Smehlik).  Power struggles mightily with this, and has been caught numerous times "reaching" and being solely focused on the puck, when he should be playing the body.   What have you seen that would refute this?  And I'm asking this respectfully, because maybe I'm just missing something.  I admittedly come from a different age of hockey, where if you didn't play the body as a defenseman, it was heresy.  But I would even think in this modern age, you would still have to make some attempt, no?

I understand that this could all change, and this part of his game could develop, but ignoring this aspect of his current play would be unwise and could indicate a shortcoming.

Go back and read @LGR4GM draft report on Power. His style of play now matches the style of play he exhibited in college. In other words, the franchise knew how he played in college and knew what to expect after he was drafted. He's playing well now and will get a lot better. He's not a rampaging bull and will never be a knock him out bull. He's a horse that can move. What you buy is what you get. 

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Neither does Erik Karlsson.

I am not a fan of Erik Karlsson.  He has a ton of offensive talent, probably a HoF guy, but not my cup of tea. 

He had a 101 points last year, was a - 26, and that got him another Norris.  You can score and still be defensively responsible.  

 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The potential issue we are discussing is not next year, it is the year after.  

All teams have to manage the Cap but the Sabres are the only team I know that paid a then 20 year old defenseman $8M/year after 87 NHL games.  How he develops in the next 2 years is going to continue to be a source of discussion.  Not so much because people don't like Power, everyone knows that most defenseman take time.  But more for the decision by Adams to lock him up so fast.   Depending on how much of the cap Adams will allocate to defense, Adams may have created less room to maneuver, not more.  

A few people on the board are talking about "Power hate".  Nothing I say comes from hate.   I am pointing out that things could get very interesting after next season with Byram, Peterka, UPL, and Quinn all looking for a payday.   Players that we cannot afford to keep will be traded before they can walk away.  We may be very surprised by who stays and who goes.  Wayne Gretzky got traded, any player can get traded.  

 

Sanderson on Ottawa got a similar contract with similar results/time in the league

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's fine, and maybe it'll work out but I'm just thinking ahead. 

We will have a much clearer picture when we see what happens with UPL. That's the first cap/contract issue. 

I said long ago I figured Mitts would get traded simply because they had an idea of how much they'd pay a 3C, they saw him as a 3C but he saw himself as a 2C and that was a great divide so he had to go. 

Byram sees himself as a top pairing D. He is a top D guy for sure in terms of his offense. The issue for me is just Power and his contract. 30 million for 3 D is a LOT. I asked this earlier so for the capologists out there is there any team out there that has 30 million on their top 3 D? I don't think so. I could be wrong. 

SJ Sharks we’re very much akin to 30mil for 3 D in a comparison on percentage of cap. When they lost to St. L in the Conference Finals they had Vlasic, Burns and Karlsson all under contract. 

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Sanderson on Ottawa got a similar contract with similar results/time in the league

You are correct.  Thanks for the update.  He is 21 and got $8M over 8 years too. 
 

Only difference is Ottawa has no one on defense like Dahlin to pay.   Dahlin got $11M. 
 

Edited March 13 by Pimlach

[French Collection]

25 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Sanderson on Ottawa got a similar contract with similar results/time in the league

Their GM got fired.

[Thorner]

21 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 I will admit that Byram has played his tushy off since arriving in Buffalo.  His aggressive style is helping activate the entire D group.  His excellent play also makes you wonder about Power.  

Krebs stepping in for Casey is a joke.  Downgrading from Casey to Krebs has created a Grand Canyon size hole in the forward group.  Even with the bombardment in the 1st two periods tonight, most of the playmaking was creating by Byram and Dahlin.  3 of the 7 goals were by D again tonight.  2 of the forwards goals were unassisted after great plays by Tuch and JJP. 

 

With some supplementation from the outside to the forward ranks in a meaningful way this offseason I think this trade could end up a Whopper of a great deal for us 

Edited March 14 by Thorny

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Thorny said:

With some supplementation to the forward ranks in a meaningful way this offseason I think this trade could end up a Whopper of a great deal for us 

It could, but do you trust KA to get the forward bit right? If he really thinks internal growth is going to be enough, it won't.

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

With some supplementation form the outside to the forward ranks in a meaningful way this offseason …

[Thorner]

Just now, Dr. Who said:

It could, but do you trust KA to get the forward bit right? If he really thinks internal growth is going to be enough, it won't.

I like to believe he would. I have more faith somehow in his willingness to do so than the board appears to. I think the tide is shifting to more less expecting a Kulich/Savoie promotion and maybe a 4th liner or 2.

Granted, from what KA said that may be exactly the case. I suppose I’ll continue to think it’s possible because it would make so much sense: like you,  I doubt a run back much like we saw last offseason gets it done. We said it was criminal at the time so a redo would be pretty head-desk. It COULD work out, it just seems needlessly risky, unless there really isn’t any sort of urgent expectation to make the playoffs next year, at all. It could be that the organization just doesn’t feel that pressure 

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

There’s a large segment of the board that will laugh if you suggest KA take action of note, and there’s a large segment that laughs if you suggest he hasn’t already.
 

It’s a tightrope! 

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

With some supplementation from the outside to the forward ranks in a meaningful way this offseason I think this trade could end up a Whopper of a great deal for us 

Who are they going to bring in to elevate the forward group and where will that person play?  8 of the top 9 are under contract and for unknown reasons DG & KA think Krebs is a good hockey player.  They even think Girgensons is a "special" hockey player.  When they re-sign Z and Robinson, that leaves exactly one forward spot open in the top 12 for next year.  How is running back nearly the entire failing forward group "a meaningful" change?  

To make meaningful change you need to move on from Skinner and Krebs, find someone like Boone Jenner for the 3rd line center spot and bring in a playmaking wing (such as Zegras) to ignite the offense.  That ain't happening.  They won't move on from Skinner which means they won't have the money or a willingness to spend the assets to bring in any upgrades into the top 9.  It's depressing.  

Remember their mantra, build from within.  

[Doohicksie]

4 hours ago, ... said:

Think of the return we could get for Power alone, then consider if we packaged him with one of our many highly-regarded prospects and a Victor Olofsson (the latter mainly for our benefit).

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Who are they going to bring in to elevate the forward group and where will that person play?  8 of the top 9 are under contract and for unknown reasons DG & KA think Krebs is a good hockey player.  They even think Girgensons is a "special" hockey player.  When they re-sign Z and Robinson, that leaves exactly one forward spot open in the top 12 for next year.  How is running back nearly the entire failing forward group "a meaningful" change?  

To make meaningful change you need to move on from Skinner and Krebs, find someone like Boone Jenner for the 3rd line center spot and bring in a playmaking wing (such as Zegras) to ignite the offense.  That ain't happening.  They won't move on from Skinner which means they won't have the money or a willingness to spend the assets to bring in any upgrades into the top 9.  It's depressing.  

Remember their mantra, build from within.  

Right I mean if we have to have an argument by way of including all of those caveats and stipulations and assumptions you listed for what the GM WILL do, then yes, it would be tough to supplement given all of that.

But none of that HAS to be the case. We don’t have to resign Z or Robinson or play Krebs in the top 9.

The distinction here is im saying it reasonably CAN be done, not that it necessarily will be. But we have the fluidity to be able to attempt almost anything we want. 

He did TRADE Mittelstadt. I think it’s fair to credit KA for moving on from a significant complement in the aim of approving the team: at the very least, it showed me he can break from that expected rigidity

Pretty big for me. Proof is in the pudding there as it’s a hopeful move to make 

Edited March 14 by Thorny

[Broken Ankles]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's fine, and maybe it'll work out but I'm just thinking ahead. 

We will have a much clearer picture when we see what happens with UPL. That's the first cap/contract issue. 

I said long ago I figured Mitts would get traded simply because they had an idea of how much they'd pay a 3C, they saw him as a 3C but he saw himself as a 2C and that was a great divide so he had to go. 

Byram sees himself as a top pairing D. He is a top D guy for sure in terms of his offense. The issue for me is just Power and his contract. 30 million for 3 D is a LOT. I asked this earlier so for the capologists out there is there any team out there that has 30 million on their top 3 D? I don't think so. I could be wrong. 

  Nothing even close it now.  Agree with @thewookie1 that SJS were the closest, even though Karlsson was on his Ottawa deal and that was only $6.5M.  And look what happened after they came up short.   Retaining salary on Karlsson, retaining $2.7M on Burns, and waiting with bated breath to get out from under Vlasic.  

   This is a view of all D-men making $7M + AAV.   It’s only 26 players.  Only one team has multiple players and it’s Carolina with Burns who really only counts 5.6 million towards their Number because of the retention from San Jose.  
https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2024/caphit/all/defense?stats-season=2024&limits=caphit-7000000-14000000

  I did the math a few days back and the point is not only would that be the highest % of the cap for three defenders, they have 4 others with Mule, Johnson, Clifton and Joki (if he gets an offer).  That’s another $14M.  It’s 48% of a $91m cap 2025/26.  If they trade Matias and Joki and replace Jags, bridge UPL, tender Levi as backup, they would have $19m to sign/bridge Quinn and JJP and 6 other forwards.  Which if their draft picks graduate and are on ELC’s is plausible but is it smart?  

I’d love to see Kev’s whiteboard trying to piece this together.  

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This is a legit concern, but I'd counter that (i) the cap will almost certain rise quite a bit during the span of the 3 contracts (assuming BB gets a long-term deal) and (ii) I don't think any team has 3 dmen who produce as much offense as those 3 presumably/hopefully will.

That's true, the 3 dmen who  produce offense aspect is front and center. My additional question would be who provides the defense? Amusingly earlier on Byram's pairing was with EJ. Are we going to try to win 8-7 every night?

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's true, the 3 dmen who  produce offense aspect is front and center. My additional question would be who provides the defense? Amusingly earlier on Byram's pairing was with EJ. Are we going to try to win 8-7 every night?

Have you had an issue with Byram's defense? He looks pretty solid to me. Dahlin and him look real good together, hopefully we add an upgrade for Power in the summer. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

SJ Sharks we’re very much akin to 30mil for 3 D in a comparison on percentage of cap. When they lost to St. L in the Conference Finals they had Vlasic, Burns and Karlsson all under contract. 

Yup that would be true, but it was unsustainable wasn't it. Adding Karlsson has proven to be the kiss of death for teams. 

If Power grows into being a defensive force on the defensive side of things I would be fine with the big 3 on D but I have my doubts about 3 offensively minded D men with big salaries on the same team. I personally think 2 is more than enough and the other 4 need to be defenders. Preferrably big and physical.

It should be exciting while it lasts though. They do provide a lot of offensive skill. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

Have you had an issue with Byram's defense? He looks pretty solid to me. Dahlin and him look real good together, hopefully we add an upgrade for Power in the summer. 

Haven't seen enough of him here to know. But I do know that Colorado considered him a lesser Makar and he was considered an offensive D man and not a defensive one. He's not that big for one. I'm not sure what his height and weight is now but he looks lighter/thinner. I will have to see more to know how he handles net front pressure and how he actually defends. 

For one, he won't be used to how poorly most of our forwards back check and thus if he gets confused on whether or not to stay in front or follow down low his D might suffer. I mention this because I've noticed lately that Clifton has started to park in front more and not chase. Thus he has looked better on D. This was because in Boston he was used to following the man down low and forcing him outside or behind the net because he knew there'd be a forward coming back into the slot and/or taking away the trailer. In Buffalo the pass back was to an open man and he was getting killed on it looking out of place behind or to the side. This happens to all our D often. I haven't seen Byram enough to be able to add anything definitive on him yet. I saw very little Colorado over the last few years. If I remember correctly he wasn't great against Seattle in the playoffs but that's a bit vague on the memory. 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Haven't seen enough of him here to know. But I do know that Colorado considered him a lesser Makar and he was considered an offensive D man and not a defensive one. He's not that big for one. I'm not sure what his height and weight is now but he looks lighter/thinner. I will have to see more to know how he handles net front pressure and how he actually defends. 

For one, he won't be used to how poorly most of our forwards back check and thus if he gets confused on whether or not to stay in front or follow down low his D might suffer. I mention this because I've noticed lately that Clifton has started to park in front more and not chase. Thus he has looked better on D. This was because in Boston he was used to following the man down low and forcing him outside or behind the net because he knew there'd be a forward coming back into the slot and/or taking away the trailer. In Buffalo the pass back was to an open man and he was getting killed on it looking out of place behind or to the side. This happens to all our D often. I haven't seen Byram enough to be able to add anything definitive on him yet. I saw very little Colorado over the last few years. If I remember correctly he wasn't great against Seattle in the playoffs but that's a bit vague on the memory. 

Of course he's a lesser Makar.  EVERYBODY is a lesser Maker. No shame in that. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

32 minutes ago, Hank said:

Of course he's a lesser Makar.  EVERYBODY is a lesser Maker. No shame in that. 

 

okay okay, but you know what I mean. He's an offensive defenseman not a defensive defenseman. Where exactly he sits on that continuum idk yet. 

[triumph_communes]

If byram can get the kids to be prepared before games that this coach hasn’t been able to then the trade is going to look great. Again I still think coaching is the problem, but real leadership is what this team lacked with Okposo. Too much dad energy not enough winning attitude 

[Cascade Youth]

Byram is good.   

[Hank]

One of the things I find most encouraging about bringing in Byram is him being paired with Dahlin on the PP. I believe over the last two year we had one D and four F, I thought for sure he would go to PP2 behind Dahlin. To me, this signals a change in philosophy/strategy, it's encouraging to me to see Granato do that.