Girgensons Is No Longer An NHL Level Player ?

[Doohicksie]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Krebs is getting 3C time.  They want to see him produce with Peterka and Benson.   Probably a good move at this juncture.  

Agree.  If the line produces, especially if Benson finds some scoring, it could bode well.  I understand giving Krebs the 4th line to give him NHL minutes without the pressure/expectation to score, but if he's of long term use to the team, he probably needs to be part of a productive 3rd line.

Edited February 21 by Doohickie

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Agree.  If the line produces, especially if Benson finds some scoring, it could bode well.  I understand giving Krebs the 4th line to give him NHL minutes without the pressure/expectation to score, but if he's of long term use to the team, he probably needs to be part of a productive 3rd line.

If Krebs is to remain a Sabre it will be as a 3C.  He has to show he is ahead of the next wave (Savoie, Rosen, Kulich, Östlund), this is his time to do it.  

He is not suited for 4C at this point in his career.   The 4C position needs a stronger defensive player, a better faceoff guy, and better PK skills.  That should be a shutdown line.  

[JoeSchmoe]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I wouldn't.  EJ has been worse than I hoped but I think Clifton is okay as a bottom 4 guy.  And I recognize bringing EJ in was probably more about the off-ice mentoring of our younger defensemen (Muel, Lil J, Power).  I don't have any problem with bringing EJ in.

Clifton is and will continue to be a serviceable defenseman.  He's not the best but he's okay in a bottom 4 role.

Clifton is 155 out of 182 in 5 on 5 expected goals % (min 500min played... EJ is 159). I find he's consis out of position on goals against and him and EJ always struggle to win pucks and clear the zone.

On the plus side he leads the team in hits... So depending on how important that is to you it can improve your impressions of him.

Anyhow, these two are by far our worst pairing and KA voluntarily brought them in. Given the cap room, he should have overpaid for someone or gone into the trade market with one of our all too many small F prospects.

[TageMVP]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Clifton is 155 out of 182 in 5 on 5 expected goals % (min 500min played... EJ is 159). I find he's consis out of position on goals against and him and EJ always struggle to win pucks and clear the zone.

On the plus side he leads the team in hits... So depending on how important that is to you it can improve your impressions of him.

Anyhow, these two are by far our worst pairing and KA voluntarily brought them in. Given the cap room, he should have overpaid for someone or gone into the trade market with one of our all too many small F prospects.

Well good thing Adams didn't sign Clifton to score 500 goals 

[JoeSchmoe]

41 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

Well good thing Adams didn't sign Clifton to score 500 goals 

This expected goals % is a ratio of expected goals for your team when you're on the ice vs expected goals against. 

Eye test wise, he's actually pretty good at generating chances. The numbers support that too. Conversely, the eye test shows he has a lot of brain farts that lead to a lot of high danger chances against. Him and EJ also tend to get hemmed in quite a bit which rack up the low and medium danger chances against.

[bob_sauve28]

Goal 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Goal 

 

[bob_sauve28]

7 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

 

Love it!! 

 

Reminds me of this 

 

 

[Pimlach]

Did Z score an AHL Level goal last night? 

[Cityo'Rasmii]

17 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Did Z score an AHL Level goal last night? 

Yes, an NHL lamplighter

Edited February 22 by Cityo'Rasmii

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Did Z score an AHL Level goal last night? 

its always easy to point out a stat like I am now after a win and after he scores..but for those who say he brings nothing offensively.....I have said BEFORE this discussion about Zemgus that the best way to evaluate bottom of the roster playrs (3rd and 4th liners) is goals per 60. They get less ice time, so goals per 60 es tells you how much they produce for every minute (or in this case 60 minutes they are on the ice.)

THIS year, he is now 6th on the entire team. Who is better? Just Quinn, Peterka, Thompson, Tuch, and Skinner. He is better than everyone else.  Historically for his career, he is 4th liner (should rank 10th-12th) on the team but he usually is higher.  He missed most of the year a few seasons before, but every other going back to the Covid year besides that he was ranked 8th (or tied for 8th) in goals per 60 on the team.  Not only does he rank higher than a typical 4th liner on this team, but he is consistently higher than an 'average' 4th liner around the league (this year, and pretty much every other year).

So yeah, he doesn't get assists as much. But he scores MORE than a typical 4th liner, he skates well, is a great forchecker, does his job (I'll say this again, on the 4th line is job is LESS to produce offense and MORE to keep the other team in their own zone while your top lines are getting rest), and hes a good (not great) penalty killer (even when he is on the ice PK when a goal is allowed, I RARELY see him as the one out of position).

I have been saying this before this thread even started...but I am totally at a loss for words why people want him gone so badly and think it will help the team by subtraction with him gone. It doesn't make sense on almost any level.

He's not carrying the team to victories, that is not what I'm saying here...so if he IS gone the team won't all of a sudden start losing a ton more games...but as a 4th liner, he is GOOD. The eye test shows it, the stats show it.

Edited February 22 by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

29 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

its always easy to point out a stat like I am now after a win and after he scores..but for those who say he brings nothing offensively.....I have said BEFORE this discussion about Zemgus that the best way to evaluate bottom of the roster playrs (3rd and 4th liners) is goals per 60. They get less ice time, so goals per 60 tells you how much they produce for every minute (or in this case 60 minutes they are on the ice.)

THIS year, he is now 6th on the entire team. Who is better? Just Quinn, Peterka, Thompson, Tuch, and Skinner. He is better than everyone else.  Historically for his career, he is 4th liner (should rank 10th-12th) on the team but he usually is higher.  He missed most of the year a few seasons before, but every other year besides that he was ranked 8th (or tied for 8th) in goals per 60.  Not only does he rank higher than a typical 4th liner on this team, but he is consistently higher than an 'average' 4th liner around the league (this year, and pretty much every other year).

So yeah, he doesn't get assists as much. But he scores MORE than a typical 4th liner, he skates well, is a great forchecker, does his job (I'll say this again, on the 4th line is job is LESS to produce offense and MORE to keep the other team in their own zone while your top lines are getting rest), and hes a good penalty killer (even when he is on the ice PK when a goal is allowed, I RARELY see him as the one out of position).

I have been saying this before this thread even started...but I am totally at a loss for words why people want him gone so badly and think it will help the team by subtraction with him gone. It doesn't make sens on almost any level.

He's not carrying the team to victories, that is not what I'm saying here...so if he IS gone the team won't all of a sudden start losing a ton more games...but as a 4th liner, he is GOOD. The eye test shows it, the stats show it.

Agree 100%

The announcer last night says the Sabres are being heavily scouted and Girgensons is a guy that is likely to be targeted by a playoff team looking for depth. 

So Z will likely be gone soon, and next year replaced by Rousek/Rosen/Savoie or some other smurf, as Adams was quoted last night as saying he is going to be bringing up his young players next year.   To which the 2nd announcer emphatically replied (twice) - "but you have to have a mix with some veterans".  

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Agree 100%

The announcer last night says the Sabres are being heavily scouted and Girgensons is a guy that is likely to be targeted by a playoff team looking for depth. 

So Z will likely be gone soon, and next year replaced by Rousek/Rosen/Savoie or some other smurf, as Adams was quoted last night as saying he is going to be bringing up his young players next year.   To which the 2nd announcer emphatically replied (twice) - "but you have to have a mix with some veterans".  

Replacing him with a young player to play his role as a fourth liner seems self-defeating to me. This team need needs some character veterans who provide some spine to this too often weak-kneed team. Okposo is at the end of his career; Girgs still has more hockey life in him. He still has some utility as a role player and character guy on this less than resolute team. 

[Weave]

47 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Agree 100%

The announcer last night says the Sabres are being heavily scouted and Girgensons is a guy that is likely to be targeted by a playoff team looking for depth. 

So Z will likely be gone soon, and next year replaced by Rousek/Rosen/Savoie or some other smurf, as Adams was quoted last night as saying he is going to be bringing up his young players next year.   To which the 2nd announcer emphatically replied (twice) - "but you have to have a mix with some veterans".  

I swear Adams is purposefully trying to lose the fanbase.

[mjd1001]

5 minutes ago, Weave said:

I swear Adams is purposefully trying to lose the fanbase.

As per this message board, this fan base is so divided I have no idea what he could do where you would not lose half the fan base.

-It seems like there are some people, just by this thread, who want Zemgus gone and wish it happened yesterday. Yet others (like myself) not only don't want him gone, but would be happy to see him here for another year.

-Coaching and GM....some (it seems like the majority at times) are seething that a coaching change hasn't been made yet. Yet others have said they think the issue is other than Granato and don't want him gone...and those posts have more than a few 'likes' to them.

Because of the lack of success of this franchise, opinions on what to do are so divided I have no idea what can, or 'can't' be done without alienating a good portion of the fanbase.  

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

As per this message board, this fan base is so divided I have no idea what he could do where you would not lose half the fan base.

-It seems like there are some people, just by this thread, who want Zemgus gone and wish it happened yesterday. Yet others (like myself) not only don't want him gone, but would be happy to see him here for another year.

-Coaching and GM....some (it seems like the majority at times) are seething that a coaching change hasn't been made yet. Yet others have said they think the issue is other than Granato and don't want him gone...and those posts have more than a few 'likes' to them.

Because of the lack of success of this franchise, opinions on what to do are so divided I have no idea what can, or 'can't' be done without alienating a good portion of the fanbase.  

I don't mind Zemgus being moved for the right return but he should eventually be replaced by a player that will do the heavy lifting typically asked of a player in a 4th line role.  I don't want to see Rosen, or some other fancy prospect, thrust into a 4th line role just to give Adams prospects a tryout.  It is time to start winning hockey games.  

They did this with Krebs.  Put him in a 4th line role and now they are looking at him at 3C, which actually makes some sense.   Krebs at least tried very hard in that role, even dropped the gloves a few times (which was silly), but how many games did we blow by not having a inexpensive but solid 4th line center that can shut down an opponent, win draws, and kill penalties?  

[Marvin]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Agree 100%

The announcer last night says the Sabres are being heavily scouted and Girgensons is a guy that is likely to be targeted by a playoff team looking for depth. 

So Z will likely be gone soon, and next year replaced by Rousek/Rosen/Savoie or some other smurf, as Adams was quoted last night as saying he is going to be bringing up his young players next year.   To which the 2nd announcer emphatically replied (twice) - "but you have to have a mix with some veterans".  

So, potentially, we would be getting younger yet again?🤬

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, Marvin said:

So, potentially, we would be getting younger yet again?🤬

It could happen, or close to the same ave age.    Get rid of EJ, Z, KO and it all depends on who replaces them.  

[JoeSchmoe]

I'm really glad Z scored last night to get us the W and that's definitely tempered my wish to send him down... At least a bit. 😉

I still have my biggest fear where we trade him for another team's cast-off that still has term. Picks- yes. Expiring contract- yes. An Anders Bjork part 2 is the last thing this team needs. KA seems to wait too long to give up on acquired veteran players, no matter how bad they are.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, Weave said:

I swear Adams is purposefully trying to lose the fanbase.

What if Girgs let the GM know that he would be willing to the point of desiring to be dealt to a playoff team for the sake of having a playoff experience in his career? Systemic losing is corrosive to a prideful player's psyche. The GM has to show some urgency to getting this team over the playoff hump this offseason. And it should be acknowledged that in itself is a low bar to shoot for. 

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

It could happen, or close to the same ave age.    Get rid of EJ, Z, KO and it all depends on who replaces them.  

He's got another year or two left. You can't replace EJ very easily 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I'm really glad Z scored last night to get us the W and that's definitely tempered my wish to send him down... At least a bit. 😉

I still have my biggest fear where we trade him for another team's cast-off that still has term. Picks- yes. Expiring contract- yes. An Anders Bjork part 2 is the last thing this team needs. KA seems to wait too long to give up on acquired veteran players, no matter how bad they are.

All the really huge problems on this team:  Terrible Ownership, experimental GMs, really bad coaches, players not wanting to be here, players complaining about the fans, no ownership for the drought, bad leadership in the locker room, Skinners contract, Powers Contract, Cozens Contract, will Mitts get a contract, the dark and dank Arena, terrible concessions, expensive beer, Matty Ellis, Dan Dunleavy, etc.

And you are obsessing about Anders Bjork?  

 

[#freejame]

The athletic ranked their top 50 trade candidates and neither KO nor Zemgus were listed. EJ was though.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

What if Girgs let the GM know that he would be willing to the point of desiring to be dealt to a playoff team for the sake of having a playoff experience in his career? Systemic losing is corrosive to a prideful player's psyche. The GM has to show some urgency to getting this team over the playoff hump this offseason. And it should be acknowledged that in itself is a low bar to shoot for. 

Girgs is on a 1 year deal.  He can be traded to a playoff team, fulfill that dream, and then sign with who ever he wants (including Buffalo).  His only problem is that he makes $2.5M per year and playoffs teams that want him may not be able to fit him in.  In that case the Sabres could retain some of his salary and ask for more in return.  

This kind of trade happens multiples times every season at the trade deadline.  

Edited February 22 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, #freejame said:

The athletic ranked their top 50 trade candidates and neither KO nor Zemgus were listed. EJ was though.  

That is probably because EJ plays defense, has a Cup,  and has a great reputation around the league. 

Between KO and Z, I think Z is better at his role than Kyle right now.   He makes a bit less and has more tread on the tires too.  

All 3 of these guys have contracts that may require the Sabres retaining $$.