The Only Way Anything Changes is a Sale

[sabremike]

Here's the thing: If Pegula wants to sell the team and Joe Billionaire wants to buy them the league will tell him you can provided you agree relocation is permanently off the table. There are lots of rich people so desperate to be pro sports owners (*cough*tomdundon) they would happily agree to those conditions.

[Scottysabres]

11 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Here's the thing: If Pegula wants to sell the team and Joe Billionaire wants to buy them the league will tell him you can provided you agree relocation is permanently off the table. There are lots of rich people so desperate to be pro sports owners (*cough*tomdundon) they would happily agree to those conditions.

If the team is sold, the team is gone imho.

The NHL is a business, there are much larger markets with far greater profit margins than the Western New York market, and the NHL is all about revenue, they don't give a hoot about loyalty to those that love the sport, they care about revenue generation. This is simple supply and demand economics. Supply a team in a market with greater demand then the WNY market. Pegula has 100% driven demand here in WNY of an NHL product right in to the ground, this is not even debatable. Did he do it intentionally? I don't think so. I believe he's honestly tried to create a winning product here.

I picture Pegula as Wiley Coyote, always trying to catch the Roadrunner but causing constant pain to himself as opposed to achieving the final goal.

[lowsabre]

In my dream world, Xerox would buy the Sabres (but in my dream world, Xerox would also still be a company on a upward trajectory, so...)

Edited February 11 by lowsabre
in a way, what we're like right now is kind of like what Xerox is facing

[lowsabre]

14 hours ago, rickshaw said:

Has there ever been talk of a fan revolt on a game day? In Europe, football fans that don’t like the direction of the club hold serious protests and often don’t go to the game or arrive late. Basically they care enough to let owners and management that the product or direction isn’t acceptable.

I mean at this point, why not revolt. Let Pegula know that enough is enough. The money has already been spent on the tickets yes, but actions speak volumes. It would be interesting seeing if this could be arranged and happen. 
 

 

Are there enough people to even care?

Europe is pretty interesting. I think in Germany for example, most soccer teams are fan owned cause they have a "50+1" rule in the league. So each team is kind of like heritage for the area.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

If the team is sold, the team is gone imho.

The NHL is a business, there are much larger markets with far greater profit margins than the Western New York market, and the NHL is all about revenue, they don't give a hoot about loyalty to those that love the sport, they care about revenue generation. This is simple supply and demand economics. Supply a team in a market with greater demand then the WNY market. Pegula has 100% driven demand here in WNY of an NHL product right in to the ground, this is not even debatable. Did he do it intentionally? I don't think so. I believe he's honestly tried to create a winning product here.

I picture Pegula as Wiley Coyote, always trying to catch the Roadrunner but causing constant pain to himself as opposed to achieving the final goal.

This is wrong.  The supply/demand theory is cute, but not factual in the way you are applying it to sports .  Not all of the people have the same need, or any need, for the NHL or any sport.   You seem to think demand and population are exactly the same.  Sell winter coats in Las Vegas versus Buffalo - then tell us which has more demand?  

The Atlanta franchise failures are proof.  The demand for hockey In Atlanta sucks, they failed miserably twice. 

Los Angeles football teams versus Green Bay or Buffalo?  Why does LA barely support a team?    There are other factors that you are missing.  

Buffalo is a great hockey market, it is a market that extends beyond WNY.  It is unique in that it extend into two countries.  It’s been a market for 50+ years.   I don’t think Pegula has completely killed it yet, the people care about holding  on to their teams and their identity.   

Buffalo has the potential to sell out every game.  All they need is a competitive team and a few star players.  Whenever they have  this, the tickets are scarce.  There is demand to sell out games and be a great TV market.  

What you also neglected is how much money people are willing to pay to watch them - wealth and disposable income.   That is the only factor that hurts Buffalo.   

Edited February 11 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, lowsabre said:

In my dream world, Xerox would buy the Sabres (but in my dream world, Xerox would also still be a company on a upward trajectory, so...)

Xerox?   Why not Pan Am, or Kodak, or Blockbuster, or Sears?   
 

smh

[hockey]

I blame Sabretooth - get rid of him.

Our mascot should be some badass sword master.

[Stoner]

51 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

This is wrong.  The supply/demand theory is cute, but not factual in the way you are applying it to sports .  Not all of the people have the same need, or any need, for the NHL or any sport.   You seem to think demand and population are exactly the same.  Sell winter coats in Las Vegas versus Buffalo - then tell us which has more demand?  

The Atlanta franchise failures are proof.  The demand for hockey In Atlanta sucks, they failed miserably twice. 

Los Angeles football teams versus Green Bay or Buffalo?  Why does LA barely support a team?    There are other factors that you are missing.  

Buffalo is a great hockey market, it is a market that extends beyond WNY.  It is unique in that it extend into THREE countries.  It’s been a market for 50+ years.   I don’t think Pegula has completely killed it yet, the people care about holding  on to their teams and their identity.   

Buffalo has the potential to sell out every game.  All they need is a competitive team and a few star players.  Whenever they have  this, the tickets are scarce.  There is demand to sell out games and be a great TV market.  

What you also neglected is how much money people are willing to pay to watch them - wealth and disposable income.   That is the only factor that hurts Buffalo.   

FIFY. You forgot northern PA.

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

This is wrong.  The supply/demand theory is cute, but not factual in the way you are applying it to sports .  Not all of the people have the same need, or any need, for the NHL or any sport.   You seem to think demand and population are exactly the same.  Sell winter coats in Las Vegas versus Buffalo - then tell us which has more demand?  

The Atlanta franchise failures are proof.  The demand for hockey In Atlanta sucks, they failed miserably twice. 

Los Angeles football teams versus Green Bay or Buffalo?  Why does LA barely support a team?    There are other factors that you are missing.  

Buffalo is a great hockey market, it is a market that extends beyond WNY.  It is unique in that it extend into two countries.  It’s been a market for 50+ years.   I don’t think Pegula has completely killed it yet, the people care about holding  on to their teams and their identity.   

Buffalo has the potential to sell out every game.  All they need is a competitive team and a few star players.  Whenever they have  this, the tickets are scarce.  There is demand to sell out games and be a great TV market.  

What you also neglected is how much money people are willing to pay to watch them - wealth and disposable income.   That is the only factor that hurts Buffalo.   

While you make valid points, I disagree.

There are reasons why the Sabres organization was highly considered movable during the NHL stewardship years. If not for Galisano, I do not believe the organization would not have stayed in Buffalo.

With the continued growth of population centers within the sphere of the regularly exposed to hockey areas, those populations quest for entertainment will, and has only grown, hockey amongst those entertainment values. 

You make it out as though the rest of the northern half of the Western Hemisphere has suffered the same fate as the post industrial WNY era, that's just not the case.

Edited February 11 by Scottysabres

[Pimlach]

22 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

FIFY. You forgot northern PA.

True, and central counties in NY.  

My point is a big population alone is not a sure way to get high demand for a product.  It helps, but there is more to it.  The LA football market for the NFL really lags.  Florida's baseball team (Miami) has terrible attendance. which is amazing considering their population and demographics.  There are other factors in play.  

To think that Buffalo cannot support an NHL team is wrong.  To say that Pegula is killing the fan base, which I think is @Scottysabresreal point, is not wrong.   But that does not mean that Buffalo can not support NHL, they have and they still can.   Look at the TV stats during the Stanley Cup payoffs, Buffalo's market is always one of the top.  

So, any Joe blow Billionaire from anywhere in North America can buy the Sabres and leave them in Buffalo.  All he has to do is hire good people to run it and get out of the way.  It would be easy to do a better job than Terry and Kim, given their history and track in the NHL.   

Thankfully Terry has done an excellent job with the Bills.  The Bills are the franchise with small margins for error and we could lose the NFL much easier than the Sabres.  

[Scottysabres]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

True, and central counties in NY.  

My point is a big population alone is not a sure way to get high demand for a product.  It helps, but there is more to it.  The LA football market for the NFL really lags.  Florida's baseball team (Miami) has terrible attendance. which is amazing considering their population and demographics.  There are other factors in play.  

To think that Buffalo cannot support an NHL team is wrong.  To say that Pegula is killing the fan base, which I think is @Scottysabresreal point, is not wrong.   But that does not mean that Buffalo can not support NHL, they have and they still can.   Look at the TV stats during the Stanley Cup payoffs, Buffalo's market is always one of the top.  

So, any Joe blow Billionaire from anywhere in North America can buy the Sabres and leave them in Buffalo.  All he has to do is hire good people to run it and get out of the way.  It would be easy to do a better job than Terry and Kim, given their history and track in the NHL.   

Thankfully Terry has done an excellent job with the Bills.  The Bills are the franchise with small margins for error and we could lose the NFL much easier than the Sabres.  

No, that is not my point, merely opining on the idea that it's plausible Terry is doing so intentionally.

No my real point is what I stated at the outset of my original comment, which was I am of the opinion that if Terry sold the Sabres, they would be moved, and I stand by opinion. WNY is running out of billionaires to fall back on is my view of the situation, then gave my reason for my opinion.

Agree, disagree, it's all a moot point as of now as I don't see Terry selling. But, anything can happen.

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

While you make valid points, I disagree.

There are reasons why the Sabres organization was highly considered movable during the NHL stewardship years. If not for Galisano, I do not believe the organization would not have stayed in Buffalo.

With the continued growth of population centers within the sphere of the regularly exposed to hockey areas, those populations quest for entertainment will, and has only grown, hockey amongst those entertainment values. 

You make it out as though the rest of the northern half of the Western Hemisphere has suffered the same fate as the post industrial WNY era, that's just not the case.

To the last sentence.  My main point is that it is not a simple supple/demand problem, it is more complex.  I think I supported that argument adequately.  It is not as simple as go to the largest cities and the population will take care of it.  Which is exactly why the NHL changed the expansion rules to allow teams like Vegas and Seattle to be competitive right out of the gate.  No more morbid Oakland Seals, Colorado Rockies, KC Scouts, Cleveland Barons, and Atlanta Flame/Thrashers.    Look at how many cup winning vets are on Seattle, it is quite a few.   Now put the exact Sabres roster, FO/GM, coaches all in Vegas for their start - most likely by the 5th year of dysfunction and losing no one cares and no one goes because Vegas has lots of ways to spend entertainment dollars.  

As for the first bold - I honestly do not know what "NHL stewardship years" even means?   I will say that Golisano saved the franchise and the NHL wanted a savior and did not want to see Buffalo out of their market.  I think the NHL still feels this way.  I think the Buffalo market could and should be a hockey hotbed once again, if they can ever be a serious competitor for the Cup.  

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

No, that is not my point, merely opining on the idea that it's plausible Terry is doing so intentionally.

No my real point is what I stated at the outset of my original comment, which was I am of the opinion that if Terry sold the Sabres, they would be moved, and I stand by opinion. WNY is running out of billionaires to fall back on is my view of the situation, then gave my reason for my opinion.

Agree, disagree, it's all a moot point as of now as I don't see Terry selling. But, anything can happen.

If I was buying an NHL hockey team I would want an new expansion team and to operate under the same rules that Vegas and Seattle got.  I suppose I could buy the Sabres and move them to the next new hockey nirvana (Houston/ Salt Lake/ Atlanta/ Boise/ Austin/ or where ever) if that was my only option.  I just don't think the league wants that.  

We can agree/disagree.   What I really want is Terry to sell to a local interest, and local means more than Buffalo proper, and I want them to be honest with the fan base and fix things.  

[Mango]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No idea if they are hockey fans but they could be.

David Thomson 41.8 billion

Tobi Lutke 9.8 billion

Mark Scheinberg 5.9 billion (tricky since he owns a gambling platform)

Peter Gilgan 3.7 billion

Carlo Fidani 3.2 billion

Barry Zekelman 2.78 billion

Mitchell Goldhar 2.7 billion

Bruce Flatt 2.6 billion

Hal Jackman 2.6 billion

Mark Leonard 2.5 billion

That's 10, but there are more and of course you could add in ownership groups with collective pools of money. All these guys live in Ontario (so they could be hockey fans and they don't own the Leafs, so maybe they'd rather have an Ontario team, but Buffalo could be the next best thing) (google says Pegula has 6.8 billion by the way of comparison and according to Forbes the Sabres are valued at the near bottom at .61 billion which might be viewed as a bargain)

So, far from impossible. 

 

You left out the Ryan Reynolds/Marcus McElhenney group. 

I am half joking. But also not. If the Sabres were for sale looking at regional interests make sense. The Remington Group who joined them is a developer in Ontario with HQ in Toronto. 

Not to mention that Reynolds and Co. only pulled out because they wanted a 30 day exclusivity window. If Terry sells the team I think it is behind closed doors. 

With the way both of these guys have treated Wrexham and the way Rob feels about Philly sports,  I have to believe these two would be one of the best shots at keeping the team here. 

 

[Norcal]

 

[Flashsabre]

Don’t forget Ontario billionaires that would be fine with keeping the team in Buffalo.

I have no doubt if Pegula decided to buy that there would be multiple suitors willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

[Flashsabre]

I still remember a couple years ago when Doug MaClean stated that he heard a couple friends of Torts were trying to buy the Sabres. Maclean is a pretty connected guy.

[Mango]

33 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Don’t forget Ontario billionaires that would be fine with keeping the team in Buffalo.

I have no doubt if Pegula decided to buy that there would be multiple suitors willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

Honestly, I think we are putting too much pressure on the market to keep the team in Buffalo and not enough on Terry. 

He bought this team from an owner who mandated that the next buyer keep the team in Buffalo. Pegula can and should do the same. He destroyed this fanbase/franchise, ran this thing into the ground, then took $1B from the locals to fund another sports venture. 

Terry Pegula owes it to Sabres fans, the city, and the state to make sure that any sale of this team includes the same or stronger no-movement language that he signed himself. 

The only reason this team leaves Buffalo is because Terry allows it to. The weight of that falls squarely on his shoulders, not the NHL's, not market conditions, nothing. 

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

I still remember a couple years ago when Doug MaClean stated that he heard a couple friends of Torts were trying to buy the Sabres. Maclean is a pretty connected guy.

 

Funny you mention that. This article came out today. 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nhl/sabres/buffalo-sabres-nhl-doug-maclean-kevyn-adams-columbus-blue-jackets/article_6b6eff34-c76c-11ee-97a9-eb4884dd06d4.html

A few interesting quotes that I fail to link together as anything other than "I won't bad mouth anybody. There are good players, but not the players they think they have. Organizationally they have no interest in doing anything different or hearing from anybody else."
 

Quote

“I look at them and I’m thinking, ‘Wow, there’s some great talent. I’m just not sure they’re as good as they think they are but there’s some good talent there,’” MacLean said. “I think Donnie (Granato) is a pretty good coach ... He’s a superb guy. I just think Buffalo is a team that is in a world of hurt. This will be 13 years in a row without making the playoffs.”

 

Quote

Reached by this corner Friday at his home in Delray Beach, Fla., MacLean said he didn’t feel comfortable going in depth on the Sabres’ season or their issues other than to say, “It disappoints me where they are because I thought they were trending pretty good last year.”

 

Quote

MacLean then reached out to former Sabres coach and current New Jersey bench boss Lindy Ruff, who served as his assistant on the ‘96 Florida team. He asked Ruff to call Adams, who was a Buffalo assistant under Ruff during the 2013-14 season.

“It was strictly Ron and I talking over a few weeks period on numerous occasions,” MacLean said. “Kevyn phoned me and we talked, and I never heard from them again. I sort of sensed on the call it wasn’t going to happen. That’s no knock on Kevyn. It’s just not the direction they were looking at the time.”

 

 

[PerreaultForever]

11 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Well us Buffalo people wouldnt

I get that. I think in my first post on this I said speaking selfishly or just for me (or something to that effect). 

I will reverse this though and give you something to ponder. If you'd moved away from the Buffalo area over 30 years ago, given this period of garbage, would you still be a Sabres fan or would you have moved on to a real team? 

It would be a LOT easier out here to just be a Canucks fan and I'm sure @bunomatic would agree with that. 

[Flashsabre]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Funny you mention that. This article came out today. 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nhl/sabres/buffalo-sabres-nhl-doug-maclean-kevyn-adams-columbus-blue-jackets/article_6b6eff34-c76c-11ee-97a9-eb4884dd06d4.html

A few interesting quotes that I fail to link together as anything other than "I won't bad mouth anybody. There are good players, but not the players they think they have. Organizationally they have no interest in doing anything different or hearing from anybody else."
 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that. A really interesting read. They are so desperate for a vet hockey guy like Maclean or Dudley but Pegula won’t have it. They are doomed until Pegula sells or has a change of philosophy 

[Goldseatsaud]

John Y Brown I don’t see Pegula doing that

[Doohicksie]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's reasonable but for myself I just don't know. If they became the Salt Lake City Sabres (for argument's sake) I think I could and would cheer for them but I can't be sure. 

I know.  I was a Buffalo Braves fan.  They moved to San Diego, then L.A., and I haven't followed the NBA since.  I grew up in Cheektowaga, I live in Fort Worth (Dallas media market) now.  I'm a fan of the Sabres because they are in my hometown.  If they left there my heart wouldn't be in it anymore and I'd probably stop watching the NHL altogether.

Edited February 11 by Doohickie

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Goldseatsaud said:

John Y Brown I don’t see Pegula doing that

Because of him, I would not go to KFC for decades.  I still resist going there even though it has nothing to do with him any more.

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I know.  I was a Buffalo Braves fan.  They moved to San Diego, then L.A., and I haven't followed the NBA since.  I grew up in Cheektowaga, I live in Fort Worth (Dallas media market) now.  I'm a fan of the Sabres because they are in my hometown.  If they left there my heart wouldn't be in it anymore and I'd probably stop watching the NHL altogether.

I lost interest in the NBA until I went to grad school and met a kindred sports spirit who is a Bucks fan, so I follow them a bit.  I went to college in Cleveland and my friends there are Cavaliers fans, so I was happy for them when Cleveland's drought ended.  If not for them, I doubt that I would care about the NBA given the rigging by officials starting with that infamous Sacramento Kings - Los Angeles Lakers Conference Finals.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:40 PM, Pimlach said:

Not if you get taxpayer money like the Bills did numerous times.  Terry knows how.  Everyone does. 
 

The market is big enough to sell out every game.  It did it before and it can do it again.  

At current NHL prices?