Sabres shopping Mittelstadt?

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Jeff Skinner has a full No Movement Clause.

And there is NFW Pegula is going to agree salary retention for three seasons 

[Weave]

23 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

And we collectively thought Golisano was too penny picking 

He still expected winning teams.  There is your difference.

[bob_sauve28]

 

[Buffalonill]

58 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Adams is definitely on a budget. Just look at the quality of the coaching staff.

this is buffalo  Plain and simple

 

[Doohicksie]

11 hours ago, Demoted said:

This team is just a farm team for other better teams.

I've been thinking the same.  The Montreal Expos of the NHL.

[Scottysabres]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I mostly (but not totally) disagree with that.

Thompson is having a down year compared to the last couple, but even now he is scoring at a 30 goal pace. Paying him $7m per year is about what a consisitent 30 goal scorer should get (maybe even more), but he has almost 3 seasons worth of games showing that is a floor, with a ceiling higher than that. I have no problem with his contract. Thompson also my not be 'good' in the defensive zone, but he isn't someone that causes problems (like Cozens) so I don't hold that against him.

Cozens, as many now on this board I RIGHT NOW do not like his contract. He has one year of scoring 30 (due to a high shooting percentage that year) and every other year (including this year), over 160 games played, shows he is more like a 8% shooting percentage guy, NOT a 15% guy like last year.  Even if you figure he might be a 10% guy, that translates to 18-22 goals per year for him. Add that to the fact he is BAD in his own zone (not for lack of effort, but for simple hockey sense), and if he doesn't put up 30 goals per year for you, it is a bad contract.

Power?  I have posted many times on here last year that I thought he was "OK" last year but not as good as everyone thought. This year him playing, at times bad, doesn't surprise me. But, I do think that most D-men don't hit their stride, until they have 3000-400 games played. Power I think is not good now, but I think he WILL be good, it is just going to take another year or two.

It is why I posted with the full disclaimer, "as of now". I also stated this could change, but until it does, if it does, my opinion stands for myself.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Interesting. 

I do not think Cozens struggled because he is lazy with the big contract.  Just the opposite, I think he struggled because of age, maturity, and his own high expectations due to the contract.  Add in injuries, his own and his line mate (Quinn).  Hw was a head case for awhile but he seems to be playing a lot better and I think he will be a very good 2 way 2C. 

Mitts is the 3C right now and one of the better 2 way forwards that we have.  In fact, he can play the 1C role and be effective and he is also pretty damm good at LW.

So trading Mitts to get a goalie or a top 4 RHD is going to create a big hole at 3C.  My fear is that Adams opens that position to either Savioe/Kulich/Rosen, none of them will be as good of an all around player next year as Mitts is right now.  All three need time., as Mitts did.  

That leads me to Krebs.  He is not doing the things right that show me he can move up to being a 2 way 3C, he is just ok as a 4C.  

So for all the depth in the center pipeline there will be a big whole to fill if they trade Mitts.  Someone has to step up - Krebs/Savioe/Kulich/Rosen/Östlund  - or Adams has to shop around for a veteran to bring in.  

Adams has a whole bunch of work to do.  

I don't disagree with any of this. I don't think Cozens slacked off on purpose this year but I do think he worked extra hard for the contract and maybe relaxed a little too much after getting it. Mitts today was garbage (St. Louis game if you read this late). As I said there, almost like he heard the 32 Thoughts talk and decided well, no reason to work my ass off here any more. In general I think this team has too much of a fun and relaxed room and lacks a work ethic and accountability. Players here do give effort for contracts and then relax (and drop off often) when they get them. I think a Torts type coach could make Cozens into a superstar. Not so sure with Mitts. 

Totally agree that if he was traded for a top 4 D we'd have a 3C hole to fill and we have to do that in a trade or free agency as well, but a more defensive style player would be the ideal choice. Definitely not Savoie/Kulich/Rosen/Östlund.

Krebs imo is irrelevant. 

[Mango]

5 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

 

Here is a crazy truth that is coming true. 

Sorting by every teams starting goaltender/25+ games played this year, UPL is 14th in S% and 6th in shutouts on a team that literally refuses to play defense. Plus he has thrown down a crazy .937 in his lasy 10. UPL's numbers would be much higher on Boston or Colorado.

The Sabres may be on the market for a goaltender, but it isn't a starter with UPL playing at a top half level. His contract won't be as cheap as we thought it would be. 

We are starting to run into a problem where not getting value out of Cozens, Power, Skinner could cost us UPL, Mitts,  and one of Peterka/Quinn. The crazy part is that everybody's current game in the latter group is better than the formers. 

[Gatorman0519]

Mitts will go to a contender and put up 90 points two seasons from now. 

[Ctaeth]

 

[kas23]

5 minutes ago, Ctaeth said:

 

Buffalo should be listening to other teams for any player not named Benson or Dahlin. KA wouldn’t be doing his job if he wasn’t. 

[Mango]

Just now, kas23 said:

Buffalo should be listening to other teams for any player not named Benson or Dahlin. KA wouldn’t be doing his job if he wasn’t. 

I will take this one further, Adams should listen to anybody's offer for anybody. And that goes for every single GM in the league. Wasn't it rumored that McDavid could be had with the right offer? And he is the best player in the world. 

Every player has a trade value. Every.One. 

The disconnect and problem I have with that tweet is that we are not that far removed from Mitts telling the world the Sabres had yet to reach out to his team about an extension. 

Both these things can't be true at the same time. I believe Mitts on this one. You aren't just casually answering the phone about trading a guy you refuse to offer a new contract to.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, Brawndo said:

And there is NFW Pegula is going to agree salary retention for three seasons 

What happened to drill a well?  

[French Collection]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

What happened to drill a well?  

I wish he’d go back to that being his primary interest.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I'm calling BS.

Petie and Rivet are clowns that love controversy.  If there is not enough around they will just create some by spewing out nonsense.

I mean reallly, they would not say it if it were not true, eh.  They obviously have highly placed sources whom will never be named.  Mostly because they don't have any sources atoll.  Nevermind sources with actual names.

[FrenchConnection44]

23 hours ago, inkman said:

It’s not that they can’t afford the players(fit under cap whatever), it appears they are choosing not to.  If this report is to be believed.  I’m leery of Adams understanding of how to work the cap at all tho.  

You are judging Tage based on his on ice celebrations with teammates?  

Not judging. Questioning. But not just that, it was given as an example of a general, non enthusiastic demeanor I see this year. 

[Mango]

On 2/10/2024 at 10:18 AM, Pimlach said:

I get your point. 

My view as of today is, Tage is the 1C and he is locked up.  Cozens got paid, so I call him the 2C, there is no plan to move him that we know of today.  In fact, Adams was trumpeting Cozens in his recent interview. 

That leaves Casey as 3C.  Now, the reality is Casey has proven he can plug into 1C and be effective.  He has improved his all around game tremendously.  He can slide to LW and be effective.   He could be a 2C on many teams, including this one.  Physically, he has a stout build and he works hard at both ends of the ice.  Skills wise he has very good hands and passing skills.   I think that today he is better than Cozens - but Cozens plays with Peterka and Quinn and they were our best line until the injury to Quinn.  

So in summary, I called him 3C because Adams already locked up 2 centers. 

Yup.  Maybe he might entertain Toronto, Detroit, Ottawa or Montreal to stay close to home?  Then he will haunt us the rest of his career.  

 

This is over complicating the depth chart. I think we all know what Kevyn Adams wants Mitts to be and how he would like the depth chart to fall based on contracts. 

But the fact of the matter is Casey leads all centers in average ice time and leads the team in points. And on top of that, more often than not whatever line he is centering tends to be the best Sabres line on the ice on any given night. 

If you want to call Tage the 1C because he is Tage or whatever, go ahead. I won't argue. But based on actual hockey Casey is not that 3rd center on this team. And frankly the continued insinuated that Mitts is the 3C and Cozens is the 2C is part of the problem with this team. Guys aren't in roles based on merit. They are in roles based on contracts and expectations. 

Adams needs to do (just about) whatever it takes to extend Mitts.

 

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

This is over complicating the depth chart. I think we all know what Kevyn Adams wants Mitts to be and how he would like the depth chart to fall based on contracts. 

But the fact of the matter is Casey leads all centers in average ice time and leads the team in points. And on top of that, more often than not whatever line he is centering tends to be the best Sabres line on the ice on any given night. 

If you want to call Tage the 1C because he is Tage or whatever, go ahead. I won't argue. But based on actual hockey Casey is not that 3rd center on this team. And frankly the continued insinuated that Mitts is the 3C and Cozens is the 2C is part of the problem with this team. Guys aren't in roles based on merit. They are in roles based on contracts and expectations. 

Adams needs to do (just about) whatever it takes to extend Mitts.

 

I sure hope I am not overcomplicating anything.  1C, 2C, 3C naming convention does not matter - ice time does.  I certainly get that. 

DG is trying to make 3 balanced lines - which is why he moved Tuch of off the Tage line. In yesterday's Blues game Tage and Cozens had 20 mins TOI, Casey had 19 mins.  No real difference. 

Tage and Cozens are having down years and have both have had some nagging injuries and issues, Casey has been healthy this season.  Can that help explain why Casey has the better scoring stats and more TOI?  

I still think Tage can be a steady 35-40 goal scorer. 

I still think that Cozens is going to be the best all around player of the three. 

I still think that Casey is a very good player, and if they can fit him into their salary plan then maybe they should.  If they can't, they better at least get a veteran in their prime for him, not more prospects and picks. 

Adams does not need to do whatever it takes to extend Mitts.  I think the "wants to be here" mantra should go away.  He got rid of Eichel, Risto, Reinhart and Montour, because he had too.  He should be done with that malarkey and he should stop talking about it like being on this team is not already a privilege.  Now he is in danger of creating a country club of good buddies that do not hold each other accountable - but they all get along.    This puts all the leadership on the coach, and any coach will eventually lose their team when the players are not the leaders.  This just happened in St Louis so they fired a Cup winner. 

Adams needs to do whatever it takes to IMPROVE THE TEAM, not whatever it takes to keep a player that gets along and wants to be here.  Bring in players that are leaders and that wont stand for the inconsistent and lethargic play that this group is known for. 

Darcy acquired Drury, Briere, Grier, Teppo, (and others) to add to his talented but young home grown base.   That is what we need to do again and if trading a good player and a few pet prospects is required then Adams better be up to the task. 

 

 

[inkman]

16 hours ago, kas23 said:

Buffalo should be listening to other teams for any player not named Benson or Dahlin. KA wouldn’t be doing his job if he wasn’t. 

I’d take offers for those two as well.  No one is above this. 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Tage and Cozens are having down years and have both have had some nagging injuries and issues, Casey has been healthy this season.  Can that help explain why Casey has the better scoring stats and more TOI?  

If I am not mistaken, Cozens only notable injuries are getting punched in the face in November and then a UBI a couple weeks ago. The Cozens injury stuff is way over played. His ice time is low because he skates around aimlessly in his own end and is directly responsible for a number of goals against. If this behavior is because of getting beat up he should take the year off and protect his brain. (Seriously)

 

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I still think that Cozens is going to be the best all around player of the three. 

I still think that Casey is a very good player, and if they can fit him into their salary plan then maybe they should.  If they can't, they better at least get a veteran in their prime for him, not more prospects and picks. 

At what cost and when? Next year? 3 years? 5 years? 

Like heading into this offseason we hoped an UPL extension would be bottom of the barrel, and based on his play it may be a little bit more than that. What if we can get Mitts for $6M and UPL's deal cost us an extra $1M per year. Going into next year I would rather have both of Mitts/UPL than 1 Dylan Cozens. 
 

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I still think that Casey is a very good player, and if they can fit him into their salary plan then maybe they should.  If they can't, they better at least get a veteran in their prime for him, not more prospects and picks. 

Adams needs to do whatever it takes to IMPROVE THE TEAM, not whatever it takes to keep a player that gets along and wants to be here.  Bring in players that are leaders and that wont stand for the inconsistent and lethargic play that this group is known for. 

99.99% of the league has a price. If the Sabres can outright win a trade for any player on the roster they should move them. That is true for almost every player on every franchise. 

Release and trade away lesser players for better players that make the team better. This is the general description of every GM in every sport. It drives me bonkers. Every fan of every team would be OK with trading any player on their roster for an upgraded player. 

We aren't having a legitimate discussion on who should and shouldn't be on this team if the fall back is "if trading him makes us better we should do it". It was rumored McDavid was on the block this year. 
 

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Adams does not need to do whatever it takes to extend Mitts.  I think the "wants to be here" mantra should go away.  He got rid of Eichel, Risto, Reinhart and Montour, because he had too.  He should be done with that malarkey and he should stop talking about it like being on this team is not already a privilege.  

Adams needs to do whatever it takes to IMPROVE THE TEAM, not whatever it takes to keep a player that gets along and wants to be here.  Bring in players that are leaders and that wont stand for the inconsistent and lethargic play that this group is known for. 

 I specifically said "just about" anything. I think once Mitts get to the $7M mark you have to start to ask some questions. But I don't think he signs anywhere for above that asking price.

I also did not mention anything about the "wants to be here". That isn't a reason to keep Mitts. The reason to keep Mitts is because he is easily the best or tied for the best center on the roster. And the only center who has any semblance of a 200 foot game. Casey is a legimitely talented C in the league right now.

I agree with the the take on Adams continuing to parrot it. But it is a pretty small part of why I value Casey on this team.

 

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

If I am not mistaken, Cozens only notable injuries are getting punched in the face in November and then a UBI a couple weeks ago. The Cozens injury stuff is way over played. His ice time is low because he skates around aimlessly in his own end and is directly responsible for a number of goals against. If this behavior is because of getting beat up he should take the year off and protect his brain. (Seriously)

 

At what cost and when? Next year? 3 years? 5 years? 

Like heading into this offseason we hoped an UPL extension would be bottom of the barrel, and based on his play it may be a little bit more than that. What if we can get Mitts for $6M and UPL's deal cost us an extra $1M per year. Going into next year I would rather have both of Mitts/UPL than 1 Dylan Cozens. 
 

99.99% of the league has a price. If the Sabres can outright win a trade for any player on the roster they should move them. That is true for almost every player on every franchise. 

Release and trade away lesser players for better players that make the team better. This is the general description of every GM in every sport. It drives me bonkers. Every fan of every team would be OK with trading any player on their roster for an upgraded player. 

We aren't having a legitimate discussion on who should and shouldn't be on this team if the fall back is "if trading him makes us better we should do it". It was rumored McDavid was on the block this year. 
 

 I specifically said "just about" anything. I think once Mitts get to the $7M mark you have to start to ask some questions. But I don't think he signs anywhere for above that asking price.

I also did not mention anything about the "wants to be here". That isn't a reason to keep Mitts. The reason to keep Mitts is because he is easily the best or tied for the best center on the roster. And the only center who has any semblance of a 200 foot game. Casey is a legimitely talented C in the league right now.

I agree with the the take on Adams continuing to parrot it. But it is a pretty small part of why I value Casey on this team.

 

Sounds like you want to keep the same team and wait for it all to gel.  I don't think that will work.  

You are worried about trading Mitts and then you talk about anybody can be traded, even McDavid.  I don't follow your point, because you are on both sides.  You make a trade to improve your team.  To do that you usually have to give up something of value.  You don't have to "win the trade", that term drives me bonkers.  Winning the trade is for the fans, and  is often a function of the time you evaluate the trade. 

On UPL - I never wanted him to play at a lower level so we can sign him cheaper.  I want him to develop into a solid #1 so we can win more games.  Not following why you bring this into the discussion but if UPL becomes a solid #1 and we can't keep him because we have 3 centers making $7M, plus Skinner, plus Dahlin, plus Power, then what?   Look for another goalie?  

As for Cozens, he had several injuries this season, including the broken face.   He has some maturing to do and he has to handle pressure better.  Still, he brings a quality that I like and that few on this team ever display - he cares and he shows it.   He had a bad year, but his more recent games have been much better, especially with Quinn back.   I think you would prefer to keep Casey over Cozens because this year Casey is our best center. 

Their stats are close.   

                Age   Seasons   Games    G    Pts       PPG

Cozens     23          4          249      58    148     0.594

Mitts          25         6          328      60    181      0.551

Mitts has 2 more season under his belt and is now a vet just entering his prime.  If Cozens has the same growth in his play as Mitts had in ages 24 and 25 what would you think?   

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Sounds like you want to keep the same team and wait for it all to gel.  I don't think that will work.  

You are worried about trading Mitts and then you talk about anybody can be traded, even McDavid.  I don't follow your point, because you are on both sides.  You make a trade to improve your team.  To do that you usually have to give up something of value.  You don't have to "win the trade", that term drives me bonkers.  Winning the trade is for the fans, and  is often a function of the time you evaluate the trade. 

On UPL - I never wanted him to play at a lower level so we can sign him cheaper.  I want him to develop into a solid #1 so we can win more games.  Not following why you bring this into the discussion but if UPL becomes a solid #1 and we can't keep him because we have 3 centers making $7M, plus Skinner, plus Dahlin, plus Power, then what?   Look for another goalie?  

As for Cozens, he had several injuries this season, including the broken face.   He has some maturing to do and he has to handle pressure better.  Still, he brings a quality that I like and that few on this team ever display - he cares and he shows it.   He had a bad year, but his more recent games have been much better, especially with Quinn back.   I think you would prefer to keep Casey over Cozens because this year Casey is our best center. 

Their stats are close.   

                Age   Seasons   Games    G    Pts       PPG

Cozens     23          4          249      58    148     0.594

Mitts          25         6          328      60    181      0.551

Mitts has 2 more season under his belt and is now a vet just entering his prime.  If Cozens has the same growth in his play as Mitts had in ages 24 and 25 what would you think?   

 

To the bold, I think this might have more to do with it than we realize. As incompetent as Adams has been in some areas he may be actively trying to improve the work ethic and attitude of the team and when he has to choose, will choose the guy he sees as more committed to the game, and that would be Cozens. 

My own view on Cozens is he needs a tougher team around him to allow him to play bigger. I do believe Hathaway pasting him has made him a little skittish. 

[Mango]

39 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Sounds like you want to keep the same team and wait for it all to gel.  I don't think that will work.  

You are worried about trading Mitts and then you talk about anybody can be traded, even McDavid.  I don't follow your point, because you are on both sides.  You make a trade to improve your team.  To do that you usually have to give up something of value.  You don't have to "win the trade", that term drives me bonkers.  Winning the trade is for the fans, and  is often a function of the time you evaluate the trade. 

On UPL - I never wanted him to play at a lower level so we can sign him cheaper.  I want him to develop into a solid #1 so we can win more games.  Not following why you bring this into the discussion but if UPL becomes a solid #1 and we can't keep him because we have 3 centers making $7M, plus Skinner, plus Dahlin, plus Power, then what?   Look for another goalie?  

As for Cozens, he had several injuries this season, including the broken face.   He has some maturing to do and he has to handle pressure better.  Still, he brings a quality that I like and that few on this team ever display - he cares and he shows it.   He had a bad year, but his more recent games have been much better, especially with Quinn back.   I think you would prefer to keep Casey over Cozens because this year Casey is our best center. 

Their stats are close.   

                Age   Seasons   Games    G    Pts       PPG

Cozens     23          4          249      58    148     0.594

Mitts          25         6          328      60    181      0.551

Mitts has 2 more season under his belt and is now a vet just entering his prime.  If Cozens has the same growth in his play as Mitts had in ages 24 and 25 what would you think?   

 

That isn't what I am saying at all. I am all for making any trade you know you are going to win. Everybody fan of every sports team is. 

Like if I were an Edmonton fan I would be against trading McDavid. But if the return on McDavid was Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Makar from the Av's I would have a listen. So in general I would be against trading McDavid. But if that is the return then yes in that specific scenario I am for it. 

The inverse is I Skinner. I like Skinner. He is a nice piece. Funny dude. But he is over paid and we need more guys with a 200 foot game and some grit. My operating window for moving Skinner is a lot bigger. I am pro moving him to free up some cash. But if the return was 37 year old Tim Kennedy I would be pretty upset. 

You have to understand that nuance right? 

I don't really care where Casey and Dylan started. Just like I hate when a rookie QB throws a million INT's and we have to hear about Peyton Manning. Developing takes time. I get that. The Sabres have a lot of developing players. Some of them are costing us a lot of money and some of them have arrived and need extensions (Peterka/Mitts) I am in a spot where I am ready to move on from guys taking up space who have not arrived in order to keep guys that are producing a real life NHL level. 

Mitts was a clunky boneheaded young player. Cozens looks like he has no idea where he is supposed to be sometimes. He could certainly turn out to be a better NHL player than Mitts, but I am fairly confident that it will not be next year and likely not the year after that. If it happens I think it will be 3 years away. For me, it needs to definitively be next year. We aren't talking about a 32 year old center vs. a 20 year old. These are two pretty young centers. At $7M per year I don't have the patience for the "But he, they, we are young" for some of these guys anymore. 

We cannot continue to be 2, 3, 4 years away. That cannot be the plan. 

Edited February 11 by Mango

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

That isn't what I am saying at all. I am all for making any trade you know you are going to win. Everybody fan of every sports team is. 

Like if I were an Edmonton fan I would be against trading McDavid. But if the return on McDavid was Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Makar from the Av's I would have a listen. So in general I would be against trading McDavid. But if that is the return then yes in that specific scenario I am for it. 

The inverse is I Skinner. I like Skinner. He is a nice piece. Funny dude. But he is over paid and we need more guys with a 200 foot game and some grit. My operating window for moving Skinner is a lot bigger. I am pro moving him to free up some cash. But if the return was 37 year old Tim Kennedy I would be pretty upset. 

You have to understand that nuance right? 

I don't really care where Casey and Dylan started. Just like I hate when a rookie QB throws a million INT's and we have to hear about Peyton Manning. Developing takes time. I get that. The Sabres have a lot of developing players. Some of them are costing us a lot of money and some of them have arrived and need extensions (Peterka/Mitts) I am in a spot where I am ready to move on from guys taking up space who have not arrived in order to keep guys that are producing a real life NHL level. 

Mitts was a clunky boneheaded young player. Cozens looks like he has no idea where he is supposed to be sometimes. He could certainly turn out to be a better NHL player than Mitts, but I am fairly confident that it will not be next year and likely not the year after that. If it happens I think it will be 3 years away. For me, it needs to definitively be next year. We aren't talking about a 32 year old center vs. a 20 year old. These are two pretty young centers. At $7M per year I don't have the patience for the "But he, they, we are young" for some of these guys anymore. 

We cannot continue to be 2, 3, 4 years away. That cannot be the plan. 

I get what you’re saying.  I want to win now.   Right now.  That why trades needs to be made.  The current roster won’t cut it.  
 

Reminder, Cozens is locked up at $7M until 2029-30.  He has a 31 goal, 68 point season already.  This year Mitts  is playing better.  We already rehashed Cozens problems.  He better pass Mitts in the next year or two, or Adams and Co will have to be called in question.  

[Warriorspikes51]

we already overpaid Power and Samuelsson and ESPECIALLY Cozens.

Please stop. This "core" has proven NOTHING