How to retool the Sabres forward group?

[GASabresIUFAN]

The biggest disappointment about this season is the fall off of the offense.  We are scoring 2.98 g/gp vs 3.61 g/gp last season.  Much of the issue can be traced to the PP.  On the PP, our GF/gp dipped from .77 ppg/gp last season to .41 ppg/gp this year.

However this isn’t the only issue for the forward group.  We still need improved two way play from most of the forwards. I also think many of our guys get moved off rhe puck to easily.  Youth is part of that, but effort is more important. 

So how can KA fix the forward group?  Given the raw talent on most of our top 9 forwards, KA has nearly an impossible decision to move on from any of these guys. 

I honestly don’t see how KA can trade any of the top 3 centers, unless he has a firm plan to replace them.  Mitts needs to be re-signed, and has earned a new deal.  TNT between injuries and family issues has been distracted this season, but given his cheap contract, improvement on the PK and ability to score, I can see a reason to move him.  As to Cozens, he seems to be finding his game of late paired with the blossoming JJP scoring 9 pts in his last 7 games.  At only 22, I find it hard to believe that last season will be his most productive of his career.  

If we aren’t or can’t move a center, who can we replace on the wing?  Skinner’s contract isn’t tradable, even if he did’t have a NMC. (At least he score 30+ still).  Tuch is a local heart and soul guy on a cheap deal who is finding a place with Mitts and Greenway.  JJP is blossoming before our eyes and is on his ELC.  Greenway is one of few Sabres that plays a physical game, kills penalties but can also contribute in the top 9.  Benson is a kid who made the Sabres at 18.  He isn’t going anywhere.  Quinn is also blossoming (12 pts in 17 games - 58 pt pace) but has been limited by injuries this season.  Hard to argue that any of these guys should moved.  

However, someone needs to go.  More kids are pushing from below, we need a top 4 D, and we need to shake up the forward group sending a message that the lack of two-way play isn’t acceptable.  

In the short term, I don’t see KA moving on from any of the top 9 I listed above.  What I do see is him taking a fresh look at his 4th line.  I’d move on from Krebs.  He has no chance in Buffalo to play a top 9 center role once Mitts is re-signed and he isn’t a energy center.  It’s time to move on from KO and Z also.  What I’d like to see here, is KA acquire a former top 6 center who still has some game, can play up if necessary, but has the tools to be an effective Pker and energy center.  Someone like Sean Monahan for example.  I’d then like to see another Greenway-type player acquired.  

I have suggested in another thread to trade Quinn for a top 4 D and if that came to pass, I wouldn’t be too angry.  

 

 

Edited January 30 by GASabresIUFAN

[triumph_communes]

It’s a coaching issue 

[Drag0nDan]

I'd be open to buying out Skinner.  I'd include Krebs in any deal, he just looks like a 13th skater at this point.  If they don't move him, then he becomes the 13th skater here.  Thompson seemed to unlock a lot of his scoring ability at center, but his shot could shift him to wing if buffalo brought in a number 1 center.  

??? - Thompson - Tuch

JJP - Cozens - Quinn

Benson - Mitts - ???

Greenway - ??? - ???

[inkman]

15 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

I'd be open to buying out Skinner.  I'd include Krebs in any deal, he just looks like a 13th skater at this point.  If they don't move him, then he becomes the 13th skater here.  Thompson seemed to unlock a lot of his scoring ability at center, but his shot could shift him to wing if buffalo brought in a number 1 center.  

??? - Thompson - Tuch

JJP - Cozens - Quinn

Benson - Mitts - ???

Greenway - ??? - ???

The major reason Tage blew up was because he was moved to center.  

[Mango]

There are a lot of moving parts.

Just in terms of guys we should lock into place the next 3 years in particular order

Center
Mitts and Thompson

Wing
JJP, Quinn, Tuch, Benson, Greenway

I think Cozens is a bit of the key for who goes where and what we do after that. We don't have enough quality centers. His 23-24 season is a hype train running on fumes. He either needs to get it together or we need to try him on the wing. The issue with him on the wing is that he would be one of the highest paid RW in the league (11th). So if he isn't lights out there either his contract needs to go away. All this is wild speculation of his future, but it is an honest inventory of where he is today and where he needs to be tomorrow in order for this team to take a leap. 

I would quickly unload whatever I could from Skinners contract. 

Edit: This team could use an Adam Lowry clone or two. And in that scenario I like Robinson on this team. 

 

Edited January 29 by Mango

[Drag0nDan]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

The major reason Tage blew up was because he was moved to center.  

Yep, i agree with you.  But he's also never played much wing with a talented center either.  Here and there, but not enough to say definitively that he can't produce in that position.  

[French Collection]

I don’t want to move on from Quinn. His scoring pace may be 58 pts but this guy has some upside. He would be higher than that pace if he was on PP1, where I think he should be,replacing Skinner. 
Quinn has more elements to his game than Skinner and JJP plus he can PK.

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I don’t want to move on from Quinn. His scoring pace may be 58 pts but this guy has some upside. He would be higher than that pace if he was on PP1, where I think he should be,replacing Skinner. 
Quinn has more elements to his game than Skinner and JJP plus he can PK.

 

I would hope it is obvious to everybody in the org that JJP and Quinn are on pace to be our best wingers and maybe our best forwards on the roster. 

[Stoner]

Spoiler alert: KA has no intention of doing this.

Latest existential question: why do we do this to ourselves?

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

It’s a coaching issue 

It’s very rarely only one thing.

 

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Spoiler alert: KA has no intention of doing this.

Latest existential question: why do we do this to ourselves?

If you can’t win, you can at least be right.

- - - 

But GA’s post is pretty low-level stuff. Same old “top 9 is set” stuff. I get that KA doesn’t do anything, but he doesn’t really do NOTHING. A 4th line retool in the offseason with the rest likely untouched is hardly swinging for the fences 

[DarthEbriate]

7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Spoiler alert: KA has no intention of doing this.

Latest existential question: why do we do this to ourselves?

What else would I do? Go see a Star War?

 

... actually, that's not a bad idea.

[Stoner]

41 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I would hope it is obvious to everybody in the org that JJP and Quinn are on pace to be our best wingers and maybe our best forwards on the roster. 

Obvious about Quinn? Is he the Power of the forwards? Maybe the Sammy given that he also can't stay in the lineup? When's Quinn signing his monster deal?

Sabres hockey is Bizarro World.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

But GA’s post is pretty low-level stuff. Same old “top 9 is set” stuff. I get that KA doesn’t do anything, but he doesn’t really do NOTHING. A 4th line retool in the offseason with the rest likely untouched is hardly swinging for the fences 

Except that suggest trading Quinn for a top 4D.  If it were my team, I think I'd be more aggressive, but it's not, and KA doesn't have the guts of Yzerman to fix his roster issues.  

 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Except that suggest trading Quinn for a top 4D.  If it were my team, I think I'd be more aggressive, but it's not, and KA doesn't have the guts of Yzerman to fix his roster issues.  

 

Lol oh you mean the one-liner you slipped in at the end of the post with the verbiage “wouldn’t be too angry”, from a poster who generally speaks with conviction?

Nice try. 

You don’t believe it’s possible 

[thewookie1]

Honestly I'd just re-do the 4th Line, get a RHD and try again with a different coach. It isn't sexy or groundbreaking but certainly realistic and yet still potentially sound.

Skinner is a great player while simultaneously being an anchor of a contract due to his one trick pony skillset.

Thompson has had an off year but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt seeing as he's been injured all over the entire season.

Tuch is one of those heart and soul guys with a Buffalo connection so he's not going anywhere.

Quinn has been great this year, if only he could stay healthy for more than a 20 games.

Peterka has showed up big time this year; his issue seems to be consistency which tends to be fixed when Quinn and Cozens play with him.

Cozens has had an eventful season with terrible puck luck, a facial injury, and contractual pressures only increasing due to his unluckiness in shooting. He could be a center or wing in the future.

Mitts, I'd look to give him 3 years and 6mil or so per. He's grown into quite the player but I've got mixed feelings about 3 Centers at 7x7mil

Greenway is a solid player who can be a 3rd/4th liner.

Benson has been a great youngster on the wing with the sky being the limit on his potential. Likely will be the eventual replacement for Skinner in regards to being the small feisty guy. 

There's 9 forwards and honestly all of them have plenty of talent as well traits to help us.

We just need 3 more grizzled vets with skill sets that differ from our present bunch.

[Weave]

Wookie might be more risk averse than even Botteril was.

Nothing risked, nothing lost, low reward.  Talk about low event hockey.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

As much as I hate to say it - it's time for KO to retire and for Girgs to be traded. 

Krebs can compete with some up and comers in Rochester for 3 regular roster spots on the *4th* line.

Trade VO for a sold #4 on D and  if a *prospect* is needed to make it happen I would suggest Krebs at this point and maybe a 2nd rounder if the D coming has 3 years left on their contract.

[GASabresIUFAN]

59 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Lol oh you mean the one-liner you slipped in at the end of the post with the verbiage “wouldn’t be too angry”, from a poster who generally speaks with conviction?

Nice try. 

You don’t believe it’s possible 

It's possible, just not probable.  KA moves slower than a glacier.  He waits until the player has no value before moving on (see Asplund, Olofsson), and in some cases not even then.  

By the way, anyone wanting Z back needs to look at his stats.  Z has 4 points (all goals) in 31 games this season.  This is Jost-level production.  He needs to go.  We can find cheaper and better players at this point.  By comparison, Mr. Robinson has had only 16 games in our neighborhood and already has 6 pts (a 31 point pace over 82 games).  He also has had better production in the prior 2 years (51 pts vs 36 for Z). Robinson is also younger, faster, and the same physical size, but we are paying Z 2.5 and Robinson only 1.8.  

[mjd1001]

1.) pray for no injuries

2.) if someone is injured don't rush them back, or let themslelves rush back. No matter how bad the team needs them, don't let one of your stars back in the lineup when they get 'cleared to play 'but might only be 80%  Give them another week, take the heat from the fans and the media for doing it, but don't put them back until they are at least 95% back to normal.

3.) Move cozens to wing.

4.) get a GOOD 4th liner who is 6'5 or more with a large reach....so he can play on the PK and take up as much space out there as possible AND GET TAGE OFF OF THE PK!  Tuch too.  ANYONE that you rely on for goals even strength or on the PP, do not let them spend any time on the PK where they could get hurt or aren't getting rest. Their minutes should be focused on scoring.

5.) Bring in an experienced group of dev coahces and assistant coaches who can teach forwards how to play in their own zone, or put in a system where they need to be more responsible to do that.

[JohnC]

49 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

As much as I hate to say it - it's time for KO to retire and for Girgs to be traded. 

Krebs can compete with some up and comers in Rochester for 3 regular roster spots on the *4th* line.

Trade VO for a sold #4 on D and  if a *prospect* is needed to make it happen I would suggest Krebs at this point and maybe a 2nd rounder if the D coming has 3 years left on their contract.

I just don't see a VO bringing back a #4 defenseman. Unless you include a high-end prospect such as Kulich, it is unlikely to get back a #4 d-man. As I said in another post, I would prefer getting a Clifton caliber player in the offseason (free agent who cost us nothing) and move Ryan Johnson up as one of the support defenseman for either of the top two pairings. 

[Stoner]

Why do I suspect the average poster here spends more time thinking about improving the roster than Kevyn does?

[Carmel Corn]

6 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Why do I suspect the average poster here spends more time thinking about improving the roster than Kevyn does?

GMKA has already marked his job as "mission accomplished" for the season by picking up Robinson.  On to the draft to find the next high skill perimeter forward with no grit.

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I just don't see a VO bringing back a #4 defenseman. Unless you include a high-end prospect such as Kulich, it is unlikely to get back a #4 d-man. As I said in another post, I would prefer getting a Clifton caliber player in the offseason (free agent who cost us nothing) and move Ryan Johnson up as one of the support defenseman for either of the top two pairings. 

Love Johnson, and he'll likely be a fixture in the top 4 LT.  But, can we PLEASE stop projecting 2nd year D into major roles?  Let him be 1/2 of the 3rd pairing next year and look like an absolute stud rather than force him higher into the lineup than he's likely ready for.  

Plus, it would be really a nice change to give Power a partner that can help cover his young D-man mistakes rather than the other way round.  These kids have to cover for F mistakes often enough; cut them some slack.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

I have suggested in another thread to trade Quinn for a top 4 D and if that came to pass, I wouldn’t be too angry.  

 

 

Absolutely not! I would be furious if Quinn were traded for a top 4D. The GM acquired free agent Clifton (gave up nothing in assets) in the last offseason. After struggling, he seems to have found his footing. If the GM could make a similar deal this offseason, I would be ecstatic. I see Ryan Johnson being moved up to one of the top two pairs in the not-too distant future. I can envision a blueline group that includes Dahlin, Samuelsson, Joki, Clifton and Ryan Johnson (Eric Johnson will not be on the team next year) and with another Clifton type addition is being good unit. With good goaltending the defensive unit looks solid. 

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Love Johnson, and he'll likely be a fixture in the top 4 LT.  But, can we PLEASE stop projecting 2nd year D into major roles?  Let him be 1/2 of the 3rd pairing next year and look like an absolute stud rather than force him higher into the lineup than he's likely ready for.  

Plus, it would be really a nice change to give Power a partner that can help cover his young D-man mistakes rather than the other way round.  These kids have to cover for F mistakes often enough; cut them some slack.

Ryan Johnson already plays like a mature player. He's not an 18 or 19 year old who was moved up to the NHL too soon. His 4 year college experience makes him more prepared for a higher pairing than most prospects. I'm really not worried about him not being able to handle the support defenseman role for either of the top two pairings. 

If bringing in a player to pair with Power results in Mitts being dealt, I say no. I would rather add a Clifton caliber player to the unit and keep Mitts.