Blow the Whole Team up in the Off-Season - It's the Only Reasonable Thing to do

[TageMVP]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

How would the Sabres acquire Arber Xhekaj?  He’s a 22 year old RFA.  I’m guessing they aren’t going to just give him away.  I’m not sure it would cost a lot but young cost controlled players are valuable.  An offer sheet?  Maybe a modest one, if they don’t love the player I guess they could let him walk.  Otherwise it’s a trade.  What prospect are you willing to see flourish in Montreal for the next decade?  

This doesn't matter. If certain guys dont progress here, then it doesn't matter if they do on another team. 

If you'd prefer, trade prospects who are not currently a regular in the lineup. Adams has a million 

Current wait and see approach is exhausting

Just curious, what would your approach be to improving the team? I'd start by firing Granato but you seem to usually say it's the players. Well if it's a player only problem, wouldn't you logically like to trade some of them? 

I'd start with Granato, personally. 

 

[mjd1001]

8 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

This doesn't matter. If certain guys dont progress here, then it doesn't matter if they do on another team. 

If you'd prefer, trade prospects who are not currently a regular in the lineup. Adams has a million 

Current wait and see approach is exhausting

Just curious, what would your approach be to improving the team? I'd start by firing Granato but you seem to usually say it's the players. Well if it's a player only problem, wouldn't you logically like to trade some of them? 

I'd start with Granato, personally. 

 

I'd go with a much different approach, I certainly would not bring in another young, inexperienced d-man.

How to fix this team without totally blowing it up?

 

-Bring in a 27-30 year old LEGIT 1st or 2nd pair D-man.  Give up a high draft pick and prospect it you must. Doesn't need to be a tough guy, doesn't have to score a lot. Just someone you can rely on when the forwards make their usual mistakes in their own end.

-Move Cozens to wing.  Maybe he'll get less of the scoring chances that he wants/needs, but the rest of his play is better suited to wing.

-Clean out most of the assistant coaching staff and develpment staff and bring in EXPERIENCED guys, overpay them if you must.

-Put in a system where forwards play positionally in their own end, and when they fail to do so, sit them for a period.

-Start Levi as many games in Rochester as possible.  Next year, the goal is UPL as the starter, Levi as the backup up here but Levi should be getting playing time now.

-Your 4th line should be 3 guys who excel on the PK. Why? do whatever you need to keep Cozens and Thompson (and Tuch) for that matter off the PK. You need those guys for goals, don't eat up their minutes on PK or have them standing in the way of shots that can lead to further injuries.

-Pray for better injury luck.

Is there more you can do? probably, but that is the list of the things I can think of that are the easiest that would have the greatest impact on this team.

 

[klos1963]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:57 AM, oddoublee said:

I don't know if a 100% blowup is necessary with this team - but a shot across the bow would be hard to argue against. 

Head Coach - let him finish out the season. But behind the scenes, they should be strongly evaluating what they want out of a head coach - and create a list of people who fit their defined criteria. 

Current Players - IMO, I believe Cozens is their best trade chip. I like him. He will do well. But I believe Mitts is better - more well rounded - and at a perfect age. If Skinner can be moved at a 50% retention - they should do it. So fun to watch him score goals - but he plays irresponsible hockey. He is not a good playing role model for the young players. EJ and OX will be gone next year - so be it. Devon - KEEP HIM IN ROCHESTER. Let him have a year, or two, where he is the leader and getting all the reps on a contending team. He is not going to get that in the NHL. Is he better than Comrie? Sure, by a little. But not enough so that he should skip the proper development stages. 

Future Players - Vets are good to have. But they have to be Vets who can produce. OX and EJ are no different than Gionta. You can only lead so much if you cannot produce on the ice at a high level. This team needs 2-3 players - aged 29-33 - that can produce. A veteran mix of players that the young players can role model themselves to ON THE ICE. Probably have to overpay by 15-20% - but that is the cost until you become a proven winner.

GM - I would keep KA for one more offseason. But the management of Devon - and his inability to close on producing vets via free agency is a red flag. Not talking about 35 goal scorers - talking legit bottom 6 players that can slide into the top 6 when necessary. We are lacking that...

Which team would take on Cozens contract?  Can't see him being much of a trade chip.

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Which team would take on Cozens contract?  Can't see him being much of a trade chip.

He’s tradable. The “poor buffalo, no one will accept a trade here (because of our own doing (look at Winnipeg), leaving out the fact half the league does not have a NTC and we are only asking the team to overcome to the extent of not being *anomalifically* bad ie it’s zero excuse)” thing goes both ways: as long as the contract is reasonable, and Cozens’ is, teams will perceive him to be suffering from the “Buffalo tax” where he’d be likely to flourish in a better environment- and I feel like the proof has been in the pudding on that 

Not advocating to trade him specifically, just sayin’

Edited January 26 by Thorny

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, seer775 said:

Krebs + Biro for Xhejak + Primeau.

I like that because it puts pressure on the 7D spot, and the 1A/1B goalie spots. That would allow Levi to slide into Roch for the time being.

-----

Say that trade happens:

- Sign a UFA Dman (OEL, Forsling, Gustaffson, Walker, etc) in the offseason for term.

- Sign two vet UFA forwards (Monahan, Clutterbuck, etc).

Now we got something like:

Skin - TT - Tuch

Quinn - Mitts - Peterka

Benson - Cozens - Rousek

Greenway - Monahan - Clutterbuck

Dahlin - Mule

Power - OEL

RJ - Clifton/Joker/Xhejak

UPL - Primeau

Levi in the Minors

----

I think that roster could crack the wildcard if our scoring comes back.

Why stop there and settle for Rousek ? 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

I agree. And to connect to PerreaultForevers post also, if we want to trade for something good, the packade we send in return has to be great...

Not do much that as the vets you want may not want you. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

Sad, but true.  But even then, you can overpay a little bit for guys like Greenway to fill out the bottom 6 or overpay a bit in a trade.  If the stable of prospects is that all-fired good, IMHO, we should overpay a bit to get the guys we need.

Well ya, I think that part of the equation is inevitable but it might take a LOT of money and some guys in their prime might just not be interested, even if they get more from the Sabres. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

I think it is the only non-competent GM related reason that has plausibility.

My opinion is, this is 90% of what is affecting the Sabres.  And it is going to be a rough road to overcome.

Well yes, ultimately we're left with the question, is KA completely incompetent, or are his hands so tied and he's so limited by how few people will come here that basically no GM could do the job. Either way we are screwed and ultimately the fault lies with Pegula for letting this franchise grind down into a bottom feeder. 

It was a prime destination once upon a time being so close to the border and the big Ontario hockey markets. 

[Brawndo]

Granato will probably stay until at least the end of the season to become the first head coach to actually complete three full seasons behind the bench since Pegula took over and He did lead the team to its highest point total since 2010-11. These two factors guaranteed him this entire season imo
This is been the biggest barrier to the Sabres Hiring Experienced Hockey Personnel is the Pegula’s reputation for meddling and firing people too soon around the league.

From various accounts Terry has taken a step back and let Adams and company run things with some exceptions. 

I have a sneaking suspicion that TP views the Eichel Trade as the end of an era and has adjusted His expectations based on this,(yes fans have and are entitled to a completely different perspective) This I believe has lead to an internal cap on some spending mostly in UFA. 

Now that being said, Granato should be let go at the end of the year along with a majority of his assistants. Mike Bales is the only member of the staff that has won a Cup as a coach.  Hopefully Adams has proven to people around the league to be enough of a buffer between Pegula and Hockey Ops that more experienced coaches and players might be interested. They will probably need to pay the bad team tax though and overpay for anyone. 
 

Adams had a lot of work to do when he took the job. Starting with improving the prospect pipeline, how the develop players and most importantly building a playoff contender and an eventual Stanley Cup Contender. He has taken steps with the first two, but hasn’t come close on the final one. I would give him another chance at hiring a HC, because I’m not 100% convinced that Granato was His First Choice. The Sabres 2020-21 Season ended May 8th and Granato wasn’t officially named HC until June 29th, there were other candidates considered for the job and a few rejected interviews outright. 
He did realize that needed help and brought in Karmanos(who was actually Rutherford’s First Choice for GM in Vancouver) and Ventura who was a direct result of  Karmanos being hired. Both of them have contributed to building SC Winners, Karmanos three times and Ventura Twice. They should have a larger role in personnel decisions. 
 

The only good thing about Adams not making a big trade or signing a UFA is he does have the assets and the cap space to make moves.

He just needs to do it. 

Firing Adams puts either a failed retread in the GM slot or promoting Forton or Nightengale ( we don’t want this) and has Pegula telling the GM to select Alex Nylander over Charlie McAvoy all over again 
 

 

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well yes, ultimately we're left with the question, is KA completely incompetent, or are his hands so tied and he's so limited by how few people will come here that basically no GM could do the job. Either way we are screwed and ultimately the fault lies with Pegula for letting this franchise grind down into a bottom feeder. 

It was a prime destination once upon a time being so close to the border and the big Ontario hockey markets. 

Nah.

We missed the playoffs by one point last year. We aren’t asking for a lot. It would defy logic beyond the extent of fathomable reason if we didn’t think the sum-total of the mistakes KA has made as GM couldn’t have bridged the gap for the final point.

The narrative here is verging into, “is this even possible?” and thus verging into outright comedy. Yes, it’s possible with competence. No, it’s not even that hard 

[Thorner]

25 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Granato will probably stay until at least the end of the season to become the first head coach to actually complete three full seasons behind the bench since Pegula took over and He did lead the team to its highest point total since 2010-11. These two factors guaranteed him this entire season imo
This is been the biggest barrier to the Sabres Hiring Experienced Hockey Personnel is the Pegula’s reputation for meddling and firing people too soon around the league.

From various accounts Terry has taken a step back and let Adams and company run things with some exceptions. 

I have a sneaking suspicion that TP views the Eichel Trade as the end of an era and has adjusted His expectations based on this,(yes fans have and are entitled to a completely different perspective) This I believe has lead to an internal cap on some spending mostly in UFA. 

Now that being said, Granato should be let go at the end of the year along with a majority of his assistants. Mike Bales is the only member of the staff that has won a Cup as a coach.  Hopefully Adams has proven to people around the league to be enough of a buffer between Pegula and Hockey Ops that more experienced coaches and players might be interested. They will probably need to pay the bad team tax though and overpay for anyone. 
 

Adams had a lot of work to do when he took the job. Starting with improving the prospect pipeline, how the develop players and most importantly building a playoff contender and an eventual Stanley Cup Contender. He has taken steps with the first two, but hasn’t come close on the final one. I would give him another chance at hiring a HC, because I’m not 100% convinced that Granato was His First Choice. The Sabres 2020-21 Season ended May 8th and Granato wasn’t officially named HC until June 29th, there were other candidates considered for the job and a few rejected interviews outright. 
He did realize that needed help and brought in Karmanos(who was actually Rutherford’s First Choice for GM in Vancouver) and Ventura who was a direct result of  Karmanos being hired. Both of them have contributed to building SC Winners, Karmanos three times and Ventura Twice. They should have a larger role in personnel decisions. 
 

The only good thing about Adams not making a big trade or signing a UFA is he does have the assets and the cap space to make moves.

He just needs to do it. 

Firing Adams puts either a failed retread in the GM slot or promoting Forton or Nightengale ( we don’t want this) and has Pegula telling the GM to select Alex Nylander over Charlie McAvoy all over again 
 

 

He’s got one more year. At that point a “retread” is exactly what we need- not only are *all* GM’s eventually “failed” retreads, they at least accumulated some “tread”. Presumably they have experience guiding teams to the playoffs- which is exactly what we need. No chance we have the hubris to think the Buffalo Sabres are *better* than these retreads, right? Surely? If our GM can’t make the playoffs in 5 years, he’ll never be someone else’s retread, because he’ll be a “never was.”

Edited January 26 by Thorny

[GoPuckYourself]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He’s got one more year. At that point a “retread” is exactly what we need- not only are *all* GM’s eventually “failed” retreads, they at least accumulated some “tread”. Presumably they have experience guiding teams to the playoffs- which is exactly what we need. No chance we have the hubris to think the Buffalo Sabres are *better* than these retreads, right? Surely? If our GM can’t make the playoffs in 5 years, he’ll never be someone else’s retread, because he’ll be a “never was.”

I don't think i could watch another year of this, I'm barely holding on as it is.

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I don't think i could watch another year of this, I'm barely holding on as it is.

Believe me, I am right there with you. To me, we are at the most significant breaking point I’ve seen between the 13 years catching up to the fanbase when it hasn’t yet to the current regime: they want a bit more time and the fans understandably don’t have it.

I think one can make a very strong case for Adams to be fired right now. No one can claim results aren’t the most important marker of success and NHL teams very infrequently miss the playoffs 4 straight years. Only a handful of teams league wide are generally at that mark. Generally franchises make moves at this point.

But for better or worse we all kinda, grudgingly or not, kinda accepted/are at least aware that Adams was granted 3 free pass years: 1st was apparently written off, and the next two were “development years”. Ok, fine, but the price you pay by willingly offering those years to the gods as a sacrifice is the acknowledgment that teams often undergo returns to competitiveness in a much quicker timeframe: ie if you are going to forgo competitiveness that could reasonably be achieved in a more immediate fashion with a different strategy, you need to convert in a timely fashion once your free pass years or up. Or else, why have them at all?

Which brings us to this year: the likely failure to make the playoffs in the year that was the minimum expectation. Even though we granted the 3 free pass years, im still inclined to think the most fair appraisal, most removed from my 13 years bias, is that the guy should get one mulligan. You should have to fail twice. I give him next year if it’s my choice (he’s getting it regardless)

I don’t see an argument for bringing him back after 5 missed years - in fact I don’t think I’d be around to take the time to engage in it, if he’s still here at that point 

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

He’s got one more year. At that point a “retread” is exactly what we need- not only are *all* GM’s eventually “failed” retreads, they at least accumulated some “tread”. Presumably they have experience guiding teams to the playoffs- which is exactly what we need. No chance we have the hubris to think the Buffalo Sabres are *better* than these retreads, right? Surely? If our GM can’t make the playoffs in 5 years, he’ll never be someone else’s retread, because he’ll be a “never was.”

Pure speculation, but I believe that Pegula views the Adams Tenure in through a pre and post Eichel Prism, next year would be year three of the post Eichel Era and have playoff expectations attached to it. 
 

Imagine if Adams gets His Holy Grail and convinced a bigger name coach to sign here, that doesn’t happen unless there is insurances from ownership that the GM is in place for the duration of his contract. 
 

I think he has 2-3 years after this one imo 

Not that’s its at all deserved 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Nah.

We missed the playoffs by one point last year. We aren’t asking for a lot. It would defy logic beyond the extent of fathomable reason if we didn’t think the sum-total of the mistakes KA has made as GM couldn’t have bridged the gap for the final point.

The narrative here is verging into, “is this even possible?” and thus verging into outright comedy. Yes, it’s possible with competence. No, it’s not even that hard 

BUT in 13 years they haven't done it. That takes some massive incompetence. 

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Pure speculation, but I believe that Pegula views the Adams Tenure in through a pre and post Eichel Prism, next year would be year three of the post Eichel Era and have playoff expectations attached to it. 
 

Imagine if Adams gets His Holy Grail and convinced a bigger name coach to sign here, that doesn’t happen unless there is insurances from ownership that the GM is in place for the duration of his contract. 
 

I think he has 2-3 years after this one imo 

No, next year would be year 4 post Eichel. One can’t reasonably conclude 21-22 wasn’t the first sans-Eichel year. He didn’t play a game for us and was never in the equation. The goal wasn’t to win that year, remember, it was the first development year, the first year KA’s plan was being implemented from the draft, through the offseason and into the season. Why on god’s green earth would that year not count? The fact Eichel wasn’t traded until the season actually started is irrelevant because the ETA of the return didn’t matter relative to the results that year.

If that year wasn’t the first year of KA implementing his plan (trading Jack was part of that plan!!), what the hell was it? 

The plan was *inclusive* of trading Jack. There was no obstacle present to KA to implementing his plan in 21-22: he did exactly that. 

Edited January 26 by Thorny

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

BUT in 13 years they haven't done it. That takes some massive incompetence. 

That’s exactly the point. It takes a lot of incompetence.

Manual, human, incompetence. Choice. 
 

Potential for better. 

[Mango]

Here is a bonkers stat. 

Before Terry bought the Sabres the franchise had the 4th highest point percentage in the NHL at .553. That’s from a teams inception until 2012. 

I since Terry bought the team they have had the worst point percentage from 2012 until today and have plummeted from the 4th most winning franchise to 14th.

If you took the point percentage from Scotty Bowman’s 10 most successful years. Not consecutive years. Just cherry picked his best 10, his point percentage would be .693. 

If the Sabres linked the best years from the best hockey coach of all time; Bowman run starting next October would take the team 10 YEARS to get that point percentage back to the pre Pegula era.

It is more or less impossible for Terry to fix this franchise in the time it took him to break it. The Sabres should have to have the greatest run with the greatest coach the league has ever seen. 

Edited January 26 by Mango

[Thorner]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, next year would be year 4 post Eichel. One can’t reasonably conclude 21-22 wasn’t the first sans-Eichel year. He didn’t play a game for us and was never in the equation. The goal wasn’t to win that year, remember, it was the first development year, the first year KA’s plan was being implemented from the draft, through the offseason and into the season. Why on god’s green earth would that year not count? The fact Eichel wasn’t traded until the season actually started is irrelevant because the ETA of the return didn’t matter relative to the results that year.

If that year wasn’t the first year of KA implementing his plan (trading Jack was part of that plan!!), what the hell was it? 

The plan was *inclusive* of trading Jack. There was no obstacle present to KA to implementing his plan in 21-22: he did exactly that. 

You are either trying to win, or trying to develop a winner later. “Nothing” isn’t an option. Just fire everyone then - that’s not a valid suggestion, even on a message board.

If we weren’t trying to win in 21-22, Adams was therefore, necessarily,  managing the team that season as a means to facilitating winning in the future - the facilitation of his plan. That year simply *had* to be a tool for building the future, the endgame: otherwise it would be nothing at all. 

Is the suggestion that we can’t count that year because Adams *couldn’t* be taking steps during that season towards building and developing and evaluating? Was he not? Of course he was. If you don’t count it you are just writing off a year he fully worked on instituting his plan and then saying that work took place in some imaginary untouchable vacuum because we only choose to measure from the following year. 

Just…No lol

- - - 

@Brawndo Didn't they *say* playoffs was the expectation, this year? We all said so in the offseason before this latest goal-post moving. If not, fine: I guess they didn’t set playoffs as the expectation until year 4 of Adams’ build (and year 5 of his tenure). But next year is still year 4.

In which case, ya, maybe they give Adams a mulligan after next year (I just won’t be around for it). Even in that case, I dunno where you get the 2 or *3* more years after this one thing from. Even if they aren’t counting on playoffs till next year, three more years after this one would be missing this year, missing next (when playoffs is the expectation, if it wasn’t this year), missing the FOLLOWING year (thus missing on expectation at least 2 times (but we all know it’s really 3), and him still coming back.
 

That would be Adams returning for his 7th year as GM, without having a playoff appearance to show for it 

Edited January 26 by Thorny

[Thorner]

https://buffalonews.com/playoffs-is-the-expectation/article_8b0b754f-4af5-54a2-ae56-0e69a0250198.html
 

“Next year, playoffs is the expectation. We all believe that we will be there, and we know what it takes now."

Sure sounds like playoffs were the expectation. Unless there’s a massive disconnect.

Disconnect between players and management? Mehhhhhhhhhh wouldn’t worry about it 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

That’s exactly the point. It takes a lot of incompetence.

Manual, human, incompetence. Choice. 
 

Potential for better. 

So you are still a believer? 

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So you are still a believer? 

It’s not a matter of belief it’s a matter of fact: I’m not making an argument. We missed the playoffs by a solitary point last year. I can mathematically conclude it is well within this franchise’s ability to field a playoff roster 

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, Thorny said:

It’s not a matter of belief it’s a matter of fact: I’m not making an argument. We missed the playoffs by a solitary point last year. I can mathematically conclude it is well within this franchise’s ability to field a playoff roster 

That whole "one point out" argument has many flaws I hope you realize that. 

Part of it's presumption is of course, that all the teams around us stay the same or get worse. They don't. 

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That whole "one point out" argument has many flaws I hope you realize that. 

Part of it's presumption is of course, that all the teams around us stay the same or get worse. They don't. 

I was merely responding to this:

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well yes, ultimately we're left with the question, is KA completely incompetent, or are his hands so tied and he's so limited by how few people will come here that basically no GM could do the job. Either way we are screwed and ultimately the fault lies with Pegula for letting this franchise grind down into a bottom feeder. 

It was a prime destination once upon a time being so close to the border and the big Ontario hockey markets. 

Maybe I’m taking it too literally but my point is that coming within one point last year PROVES it’s reasonably possible for a GM to field a playoff team here. Otherwise, you’d be arguing that you are certain there’s nothing we could have theoretically, possibly have done differently last year to bridge that one point gap.

And I know someone wouldn’t possible make an argument like that 

Edited January 26 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I was merely responding to this:

Maybe I’m taking it too literally but my point is that coming within one point last year PROVES it’s reasonably possible for a GM to field a playoff team here. Otherwise, you’d be arguing that you are certain there’s nothing we could have theoretically, possibly have done differently last year to bridge that one point gap.

And I know someone wouldn’t possible make an argument like that 

Well okay fair enough. I suppose I'm always locked on building playoff sustainability and not just some squeak in fluke early playoff exit thing. 

If we'd have somehow gotten in and one point over Florida I'd have bet anything we'd have been swept 4 straight (5 with some lucky game goalie thing) and the Bruins would have maybe won a cup (or at least been in the final with Vegas). So the Bruins haters here should probably feel good about that 🙂

Most of the off season talk around here was how Levi would save everything and be Patrick Roy. Lots of instant Levi believers here and I think KA was one of them. Folly.