GDT: Sabres @ Kings - Wed Jan 24, 2024, 10:30 pm ET MSG, ESPN+ Bally Sports West 📺 WGR 📻

[K-9]

Last night was fool’s gold. I refuse to get suckered back in by this team full of underachieving and poorly coached NHL wannabes. Beating a slumping Kings team a night after losing to one of the worst teams in the league does nothing to convince me that they’ve turned a corner. Nothing. At. All. 

[pi2000]

39 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Last night was fool’s gold. I refuse to get suckered back in by this team full of underachieving and poorly coached NHL wannabes. Beating a slumping Kings team a night after losing to one of the worst teams in the league does nothing to convince me that they’ve turned a corner. Nothing. At. All. 

Agreed, same sloppy defense and casual turnovers.    They'll win some games on sheer talent alone, but it's not sustainable.  

[ska-T Palmtown]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

For the second point you make, because mistakes of course are made where your goalie makes a save, but by focusing on goals allowed, we can look at where mistakes are likely made and see the result of them.  Its just more efficient than spending 3 hours breaking down film is the best way to put it.

As far as the first point who is freelancing?  2 parts to that question.  Cozens is the #1 offender. There are times where the 5 man unit is in their own zone and everything is going pretty well, and then for ZERO reason he takes off and chases a puck into the corner, the puck comes back out to where he was supposed to be and there is your goal against. The best way I can describe it is he is like a Dog chasing a squirell, or a cat chasing string...he just can't control himself.  Others make that mistake too (Okposo surprisingly a lot, and as much as everyone loves Benson, he can be a liability in his own zone this way) but by far Cozens has done it dozens of times in the past year leading to goals against.  Who doesn't do it much? Normally Greenway. He had a bad game last night but he is pretty good as maintaining is D-zone coverage usually. Also Thompson and Girgensons. They both often look like they aren't doing a lot in the defensive zone but are holding position where they should be.

A side not, while Girgensons is someone many think is close to useless or want to get rid of, he is one of the players on this team that USUALLY plays positionally well in his own end and is probabaly the 2nd best forechecker on this team next to Tuch. 

The 2nd part of that isn't 'freelancing', but just that when coming back into the defensive zone, the forwards seem to frequently all go to the side of the ice the puck is on. If the puck is on the far side, both the far side winger and the center are on the far boards, and the 'near side' winger even is near center ice, leaving the entire other side of the ice open (see the Kopitar goal last night for a great example). This happens a LOT! when watching the game I notice this even when goals aren't scored against.  In some games numerous prime scoring chances against are allow simply because the forwards ALL go to the side of the ice the puck is on, while someone from the other team just slips into the open side of the ice very easily.

I know Duds already replied - but the bold/underlined part is an actual defensive system that is taught at many levels of hockey. The 1a to the breakdown on that particular goal is the time/space Bryson allowed the Kings player (as dudacek pointed out) with the 1b being the far-side winger probably not paying enough attention to the open ice to better take away that option by blocking the passing lane. Either way, these are the types of great discussions that keep me coming back to SS even in these bleak times. I definitely appreciate all the effort to analyze the plays!

Edited January 25 by ska-T Chitown

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Last night was fool’s gold. I refuse to get suckered back in by this team full of underachieving and poorly coached NHL wannabes. Beating a slumping Kings team a night after losing to one of the worst teams in the league does nothing to convince me that they’ve turned a corner. Nothing. At. All. 

It was nice to see Quinn, JJP and Cozens have a big game. Glad they are Sabre assets and players that point to a bright future 

[K-9]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

It was nice to see Quinn, JJP and Cozens have a big game. Glad they are Sabre assets and players that point to a bright future 

Good for them. But it’s just one game. They’ve had a good game or two in the past as well. Then, like the rest of the pretenders, they disappear for a while. When their good games become the norm vs. the just once in a while, I’ll pay attention again. 

And not for nothing, this season, like so many others during the drought, was supposed to be the realization of a bright future for this team. Instead, they are exactly what their record says they are; a sub .500 group of wannabe NHL pretenders. So pardon me if, after 30+ years as a STH, I refuse to buy the bullcrap they’re selling any longer. 

Edited January 26 by K-9

[mjd1001]

55 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Good for them. But it’s just one game. They’ve had a good game or two in the past as well. Then, like the rest of the pretenders, they disappear for a while. When their good games become the norm vs. the just once in a while, I’ll pay attention again. 

And not for nothing, this season, like so many others during the drought, was supposed to be the realization of a bright future for this team. Instead, they are exactly what their record says they are; a sub .500 group of wannabe NHL pretenders. So pardon me if, after 30+ years as a STH, I refuse to by the bullcrap they’re selling any longer. 

Exactly.  One of the biggest mistakes people make is taking a small sample size and then thinking it means more than it does...

The difference often times between a good player and a bad one...a great team and average team....is not how they look when they are at the top of their game.....but instead how OFTEN they can play close to the top of their game.  Its encouraging to see that line play well because you know they 'have it in them', but before I believe they are a 'good' line again I need to see it several games in a row.

 

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I didn't watch the whole game last night, saw some of it, rewatched the highlights.  I like to take a look at the goals allowed and see what went wrong.

Today, I'm not spending much time on it, it is the SAME THING over and over. The forwards do not know how to position themself in the defensive end.  The ENTIRE team will look at and follow the puck instead of being where they should be.  They do not hold the box in the PK. It is the same thing, game after game after game after game that allows goals scored against.

1st goal allowed: Mitts, Greenway, and I have no idea who the other forward was.  Kopitar comes in on the near wing, no one picks him up. He scores.  Look at the screenshot below.  4 Sabres players in the D-zone. No one at all on the entire near side of the ice except Kopitar.  ALL FOUR sabres players looking at the puck, no one with any awareness to the WIDE OPEN half of the ice Kopitar is on. Easy pass to him, easy shot, easy goal.D-men, including Bryson, were  OK, Forwards, its the SAME THING. (see Screenshot below)

2nd goal allowed: Both Tuch and Greenway chase the puck near the blue line. I guess BOTH of them could justify going after the puck from where they were, but they have to know that BOTH of them can't. They both chase the puck take themselves both out of the play, Puck comes to Kempe with NO ONE around him where he has all day to skate in, set up the shot, look for the opening, easy goal.  The Sabres D-men were tied up with other Kings players down low, again I don't blame them. It was the Forward chasing the puck AGAIN that caused this.

3rd goal:  I say this game after game on the PK. When the Sabres hold the box on the PK, they do well.  The other team controls the puck sure, but they simply pass it around the perimiter and waste time and then eventually take a shot the goalie clearly sees and stops.  WHEN the Sabres allow a goal it is almost always then they start chasing and the PK box collapses (lately a lot with Cozens on the ice). So guess what happened here? Well, this time it was Greenway and Cozens. They almost kill the entire penalty, but right at the end, the guy has the puck on the blue line on the near side (Greenway's side).  He is drifting toward the far side (Cozens side).  Greenway starts to follow him to the other side, leaving the near boards WIDE open. I put this more on Greenway, but Cozens could have stepped up a bit so Greenway had no where to go. Anyway, once Greenway is out of position, the puck gets moved to the area he vacated, the entire Sabres team has no clue what to do, collapses down low into a mass of humanity and the goal is scored.

 

Greenway had an awful game defensively. The entire forward group is bad in their own zone.  The Defensemen again, not great but not as bad as many think.  They appear to have won this game due to some good quick wrist shots and suspect goaltending by the opposition.

The forwards on this team have their eyes and their bodies follow the puck like a magnet.  This is playoff team if you get a fraction of the missing scoring from Cozens and Tuch back, and if the Forwards can learn to play positionally in their own zone, and not just chase the puck like a pee-wee team full of 6 year olds does.

 

See below picture. Every single player is looking at the puck. Does anyone know there is an entire other side of the ice? Anyone care to even glance over and look to not hang their goalie out to dry? guess not.

 

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think the Sabres (in many situations) are coached to come hard at the puck carrier and in layers.

The system is designed to create odd-man advantages for the defence, where the primary defender is taking away time and space and the layers are in a position to block, or at least disrupt passes, support puck battles, and pounce on forced turnovers.

By design it will leave people open, on the principle that the open guy is a great distance away from the puck carrier, with a lot of obstacles between them. It's betting those obstacles, combined with the pressure, should mean the puck rarely gets to the open guy.

Your photo above both illustrates the principle and where it can break down.

Mittelstadt, Greenway and Dahlin are doing what they are supposed to do positionally. Where it breaks down is the primary defender, Bryson, has allowed the puck carrier far too much time and space. Without time and space, the puck carrier would be angled into the corner, forced to reverse up the boards, or attempting a rushed pass that the Sabres are in position to pick off.

Without the pressure, the puck carrier is talented enough to pick his spot between Mitts and Dahlin and put it on the tape for Kopitar.

Really it's not much different than defence in football: get in the QB's face and he'll miss his throws. Give him time and he'll pick you apart.

Not disagreeing nor disputing what either of you are saying.  Just throwing out a bit more info.  When LA was coming through the neutral zone and into the Sabres zone, the King that's just inside the Sabres blue line HAD been ahead of Kopitar and Mittelstadt had been covering him while he was the most dangerous uncovered King on the rush.

But he curled to give the puck carrier (Kempe?) another option and when he did, Mittelstadt did not look back to see Kopitar breaking in hard towards the far post but rather turned towards the King that Dahlin had been 1 on 1 with as Dahlin started to move a bit towards the puck carrier presumably anticipating the possibility that the puck carrier smoked the D (Bryson?) that had him.

And in that decision by Mittelstadt, Anze was left all alone.  It's a very interesting thought that Mittelstadt actually did what he's being coached to do which is to help with the more easily accessed (via pass from the current puck carrier) threat than the more dangerous threat.  Not sure I'm completly buying it as Mittelstadt NEVER looked away from the play in front of him to even know that Kopitar hadn't stepped up to rejoin the attack of the rush as his teammate turned and held the Sabres blue line.  Had Mitts looked that way and THEN made the decision he did end up making would give it more credence that he did what they wanted him to do.

[Taro T]

And it looks like this kid went to bed about 30 seconds before Peterka got the goal that got them going.  2 totally different games.

And the play by Clifton to keep it from going to 4-1 doesn't seem to be getting as much love as it should.  For the 1st time this year, Levi actually had one of his defensemen keep a sure goal out of the net rather than bouncing something that would've gone harmlessly past the post right into the far side of the net.  That was the last time a shot had Levi beat last night.  He still wasn't controlling rebounds as well as he would like to have been controlling them, but he wasn't beat again a single time last night.

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Good for them. But it’s just one game. They’ve had a good game or two in the past as well. Then, like the rest of the pretenders, they disappear for a while. When their good games become the norm vs. the just once in a while, I’ll pay attention again. 

And not for nothing, this season, like so many others during the drought, was supposed to be the realization of a bright future for this team. Instead, they are exactly what their record says they are; a sub .500 group of wannabe NHL pretenders. So pardon me if, after 30+ years as a STH, I refuse to buy the bullcrap they’re selling any longer. 

It’s a good point. We are clearly past the point where a turnaround can be measured in anything but sustained success to the extent of achieving an actual result: the result determined to be the minimum expectation is playoffs. They’ll have turned the corner when they make the playoffs. It’s not so much about belief right now as reality: the math is very unfavourable for making the playoffs.

Turn the math around in season and then we’re talking. Until then, wins, while fun, are mathematically occasionally expected, but ultimately inconsequential. Poor teams still win a fair few games in raw quantity when you play 82

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I like that first star choice. Anyone can look at the scoresheet and select the player with the most points. Tage was fierce.

You know who else was fierce?  JJ Peterka.  And he scored two goals.

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, K-9 said:

Last night was fool’s gold. I refuse to get suckered back in by this team full of underachieving and poorly coached NHL wannabes. Beating a slumping Kings team a night after losing to one of the worst teams in the league does nothing to convince me that they’ve turned a corner. Nothing. At. All. 

That's the spirit!