GDT: Lightning @ Sabres - Sat Jan 20, 2024, 12:30 pm ET MSG-B, BSSUN 📺 WGR 📻

[Weave]

15 minutes ago, SDS said:

How long are you going to try and be funny with this?

Probably as long as he was getting that response to the inexperienced GM and coach replies.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Your comments about the reluctance to get the puck down low is the center piece of DG's post-game comments. This tendency to instead throw the puck back to the defensemen is taking the opposite approach that what the coach wants them to do. (as you point out )You can't always shoot the puck behind the net because there are many times when carrying/passing the puck is the right thing to do to attack the offensive zone. But if the play is not there, then shoot the puck in low and chase it. The problem is that battling for the puck behind the net requires tenacity and grit. This group is more comfortable with perimeter play that requires less physical play. 

What bothered me about the post-game comments by the coach is that it was apparent that the down-low strategy was supposed to be a focus of attention. Yet, the coach's instructions weren't adequately followed. Hockey has a rapid back and forth flow to it where it is impossible strictly follow a game plan. However, when a pre-game strategy is emphasized and the players don't follow it, then there is both a coaching and player problem. The word that comes to me that fits this situation is accountability. Where is it?

Look back, in all three games we lost, I can't objectively say that we were outplayed. The margin of error between us and some of the better teams in the league is small. The difference is the attention to detail throughout the game. You have to be able to play smart and tough. We just seem incapable of keeping these two basic attributes up throughout the game. 

In this game, I thought that the Benson penalty at a critical juncture was atrocious. I'm not saying that it was a reason why we lost. It just seemed like a poor judgment and weird call. 

 https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/don-granato-postgame-vs-tb-6345267850112

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the link.  Had only heard Granato's postgame comments in the past week on Monday.  (We park pretty far from the rink and unless we're in a rush back to the car, he's usually finishing up or done by the time we get the radio on.)  And only caught his response to Hamsammich's Q about them standing around on the 1st PP they had that game.  Which the team did.  Granato's response was either a falsehood or delusional.  He said that they'd just watched that particular PP before him coming out for the PC and they had a lot of opportunities that they just missed on that one.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Thanks for the link.  Had only heard Granato's postgame comments in the past week on Monday.  (We park pretty far from the rink and unless we're in a rush back to the car, he's usually finishing up or done by the time we get the radio on.)  And only caught his response to Hamsammich's Q about them standing around on the 1st PP they had that game.  Which the team did.  Granato's response was either a falsehood or delusional.  He said that they'd just watched that particular PP before him coming out for the PC and they had a lot of opportunities that they just missed on that one.

I'm not into excuses about how this season has disappointingly transpired. But the biggest difference between success and failure has been the play of our PP. Teams have adjusted to what we do the PP. We haven't sufficiently adjusted to their adjustments. (As others have pointed out.) As I said in a prior post, the difference between most teams in this league is small. From my view, I thought this was an evenly played game. Some teams are more proficient in their attention to detail. We made a few glaring errors in trying to get the puck out of our zone; they capitalized on them. 

 

[SDS]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Probably as long as he was getting that response to the inexperienced GM and coach replies.

apparently, he has nothing better to do than to mock my one post every two weeks.

[Weave]

39 minutes ago, SDS said:

apparently, he has nothing better to do than to mock my one post every two weeks.

Thats funny.  I was thinking of someone else it was mocking.

 

[Spoonman]

15 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

Glad someone got the joke 😉

Ding Ding Ding

And we have a winner Johnny.....

🤣

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

You are not following along. He is an NHL coach and thus is NHL caliber. KA it follows hires NHL caliber coaches. Just like Terry hires experienced GMs. How long has KA been a GM. He is experienced.

This isn't hard.

I get it.   I was giving you some of your  “Pa Vibe” back. 

Sure he is an NHL head coach, as much as Housley was, and more so than Ralph. 

To me, an “NHL Head Coach” must have some level of success to get hired and rehired.  So if a team hires Housley, or Rolston, or Ralph again, I would still question that they hired an actual NHL head coach.  
 

Now, Terry has yet to hire an experienced GM.  Even the FO in upstart Seattle would not hire JBot as a GM, he is an AGM still.  Smart guy, hard worker, still learning the craft.   I would argue that Adams should work for Karmonos when looking at their prior credentials.   I  was happy he was brought in and suspect he will leave as soon as a better opportunity arises   

Adam’s might have been the least qualified GM hiring in a long time.  He seems to have done ok to fortify the scouting/ analytics/ drafting side.  His trades are a mixed bag, in part because he let players go that wanted out and had no leverage (Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Risto).  His ability to acquire veteran help has been poor.  His attention to goaltending is atrocious.   His ability to conduct a coaching search?  Well, he didn’t really do one when he made DG his choice.

So, is he  an NHL GM? Yes in title, yes in term, but his resume has holes and if he was fired today I do not see him landing a GM position anywhere in the NHL for quite awhile. 

Anyone seen Terry Murray lately?  

Edited January 21 by Pimlach

[thewookie1]

19 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I get it.   I was giving you some of your  “Pa Vibe” back. 

Sure he is an NHL head coach, as much as Housley was, and more so than Ralph. 

To me, an “NHL Head Coach” must have some level of success to get hired and rehired.  So if a team hires Housley, or Rolston, or Ralph again, I would still question that they hired an actual NHL head coach.  
 

Now, Terry has yet to hire an experienced GM.  Even the FO in upstart Seattle would not hire JBot as a GM, he is an AGM still.  Smart guy, hard worker, still learning the craft.   I would argue that Adams should work for Karmonos when looking at their prior credentials.   I  was happy he was brought in and suspect he will leave as soon as a better opportunity arises   

Adam’s might have been the least qualified GM hiring in a long time.  He seems to have done ok to fortify the scouting/ analytics/ drafting side.  His trades are a mixed bag, in part because he let players go that wanted out and had no leverage (Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Risto).  His ability to acquire veteran help has been poor.  His attention to goaltending is atrocious.   His ability to conduct a coaching search?  Well, he didn’t really do one when he made DG his choice.

So, is head an NHL GM.  Yes in title, yes in term, but his resume has holes and if he hit fired today I do not see him landing a GM position anywhere in the NHL for quite awhile. 

Anyone seen Terry Murray lately?  

Don’t think he’s had a job since Buffalo but he is 73 now and would have been at least 65 when he was fired here. May have just retired.

As for Tim Murray he hasn’t even been a scout or anything since Buffalo. He must of legitimately did something bad that we aren’t aware of because I’ve never seen a former GM who was a front office lifer vanish like that. 
 

Botterill has been the AGM in Seattle and has been in proposed candidates when GM searches are ongoing. 
 

Adams has always been an odd one due to his experience being all over the place. Player, Assistant Coach, Scout, high up roles in the Harbor Center and Jr Sabres programs and something akin to an auditor for the Pegulas in the 2019-2020 area. He has done well at bringing on great analytical minds to his youth scouting but the lack of pro scouts seems odd. From a manager POV he seems very good, easy to work with, listens to his staff, etc. Where the issues seem to arise is with his more mild approaches to goaltending and pushing the team into the playoffs.

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Probably as long as he was getting that response to the inexperienced GM and coach replies.

When you hire an employee that lacks the experience typically associated with a job, and you let them work for several years they become experienced.  Ok, sure.    I guess that is the point in all this double talk.

You still hired an inexperienced person from day one.  You took that chance.  You suffer the consequences of baptism by fire that the employee will go through. You also suffer the damage to organization that could result internally and as viewed from the outside.  

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say The Pegula’s hired an inexperienced person to run hockey operations when they picked Adams.   We have discussed Adams resume enough, it was not nearly strong enough.  He was hired because he is smart, they knew him and liked him, and he would be loyal to their plan at that time.  

I think it is reasonable to say that Pegula has no clue who to hire to run his hockey operations.  Putting his wife in charge when his cronies from Pittsburgh and Penn State failed was a mistake.  LaFontaine, Murray, Boterill, Adams -  all were stretches.  They are all “experienced” now though.  Ok.  
 

Maybe Adams will turn out great since he being afforded so much time to get it right?  That is what we have to cling too.  

Edited January 21 by Pimlach

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

When you hire an employee that lacks the experience typically associated with a job, and you let them work for several years they become experienced.  Ok, sure.    I guess that is the point in all this double talk.

You still hired an inexperienced person from day one.  You took that chance.  You suffer the consequences of baptism by fire that the employee will go through. You also suffer the damage to organization that could result internally and as viewed from the outside.  

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say The Pegula’s hired an inexperienced person to run hockey operations when they picked Adams.   We have discussed Adams resume enough, it was not nearly strong enough.  He was hired because he is smart, they knew him and liked him, and he would be loyal to their plan at that time.  

I think it is reasonable to say that Pegula has no clue who to hire to run his hockey operations.  Putting his wife in charge when his cronies from Pittsburgh and Penn State failed was a mistake.  LaFontaine, Murray, Boterill, Adams -  all were stretches.  They are all “experienced” now though.  Ok.  
 

Maybe Adams will turn out great since he being afforded so much time to get it right?  That is what we have to cling too.  

I’m not sure why you chose to quote my post to reply with this.  I generated agree with the sentiment.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

When you hire an employee that lacks the experience typically associated with a job, and you let them work for several years they become experienced.  Ok, sure.    I guess that is the point in all this double talk.

You still hired an inexperienced person from day one.  You took that chance.  You suffer the consequences of baptism by fire that the employee will go through. You also suffer the damage to organization that could result internally and as viewed from the outside.  

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say The Pegula’s hired an inexperienced person to run hockey operations when they picked Adams.   We have discussed Adams resume enough, it was not nearly strong enough.  He was hired because he is smart, they knew him and liked him, and he would be loyal to their plan at that time.  

I think it is reasonable to say that Pegula has no clue who to hire to run his hockey operations.  Putting his wife in charge when his cronies from Pittsburgh and Penn State failed was a mistake.  LaFontaine, Murray, Boterill, Adams -  all were stretches.  They are all “experienced” now though.  Ok.  
 

Maybe Adams will turn out great since he being afforded so much time to get it right?  That is what we have to cling too.  

It's frustrating because it's very possible that that is what ownership expects.  The play of Sabres castoffs when they finally reached their prime years is likely something that they look at when assessing where the Kid Line and Power and Johnson and others are going to be next year and moving forward.  The emergence of UPL is likely also getting pointed out as how they can't give up on a young guy that seemingly underachieves such as Krebs.

But yet, Adams still hasn't extended Mittelstadt and he, along with Thompson, appears to be the epitome of the stay the course "don't go all wobbly on me now, George" player that Adams and Granato have been preaching.

Am getting flat out at a point that am fully expecting essentially status quo with the improvement that comes with age as frustrating as that is because there are a few spots that so glaringly could be improved by adding from outside and for what would seemingly not be a large cost in the grand scheme of things.  And yet, still hope (for no apparent reason) that Adams will go off the board and really get us that jolt that might not save this season but at least get things back on the rails.  Really not sure why that hope is still there, because it keeps seeming like what we have is what we get.  And maybe like you say, Adams will end up right about this.  But it's just so darn painful waiting for that to either pan out or the shoe to drop.

(How totally different would this season feel right now had that puck not gone in off Fasching's knee and the Sabres score that next goal to win that game in regulation rather than losing it in regulation?  It would be annoying, but not horrendously so and would likely be viewed simply as that slight step back that @Thorny kept expecting and that the Bills went through in Allen's rookie year with a lot of hope for what the next year would bring.)

[Thorner]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

It's frustrating because it's very possible that that is what ownership expects.  The play of Sabres castoffs when they finally reached their prime years is likely something that they look at when assessing where the Kid Line and Power and Johnson and others are going to be next year and moving forward.  The emergence of UPL is likely also getting pointed out as how they can't give up on a young guy that seemingly underachieves such as Krebs.

But yet, Adams still hasn't extended Mittelstadt and he, along with Thompson, appears to be the epitome of the stay the course "don't go all wobbly on me now, George" player that Adams and Granato have been preaching.

Am getting flat out at a point that am fully expecting essentially status quo with the improvement that comes with age as frustrating as that is because there are a few spots that so glaringly could be improved by adding from outside and for what would seemingly not be a large cost in the grand scheme of things.  And yet, still hope (for no apparent reason) that Adams will go off the board and really get us that jolt that might not save this season but at least get things back on the rails.  Really not sure why that hope is still there, because it keeps seeming like what we have is what we get.  And maybe like you say, Adams will end up right about this.  But it's just so darn painful waiting for that to either pan out or the shoe to drop.

(How totally different would this season feel right now had that puck not gone in off Fasching's knee and the Sabres score that next goal to win that game in regulation rather than losing it in regulation?  It would be annoying, but not horrendously so and would likely be viewed simply as that slight step back that @Thorny kept expecting and that the Bills went through in Allen's rookie year with a lot of hope for what the next year would bring.)

I gotta say, Adams can’t really “end up right” about this, at least in so far as the central goal we’ve been talking about, which is making the playoffs. If we make it in year 5, or year 6, or year 7, it says nothing about the fact that teams, statistically, very rarely get to even 4 year playoff droughts (which makes sense mathematically given 50% make it).  Only a handful of teams generally at any given time are at that level. Making it 5 years in would be a significantly below average league-relative course to take re: average timeline. I’ve mentioned this before, any sort of playoff appearance beyond this season is certainly “about time” territory. For the franchise, more than obviously, but specifically this regime.

Now of course, this is just my view, and opinions aren’t (see: shouldn’t be) static. Adams CAN re-write the narrative. But at this point that would be way of willingly taking a exorbitantly long time to make the playoffs because the success we achieve once there was facilitated by it. Ie: 5 years to just make the playoffs is not “job well done” but if the payoff of that long road is deep playoff runs over the course of this team’s window, that’s a different story and of course that would reflect on the General Manager 

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I gotta say, Adams can’t really “end up right” about this, at least in so far as the central goal we’ve been talking about, which is making the playoffs. If we make it in year 5, or year 6, or year 7, it says nothing about the fact that teams, statistically, very rarely get to even 4 year playoff droughts (which makes sense mathematically given 50% make it).  Only a handful of teams generally at any given time are at that level. Making it 5 years in would be a significantly below average league-relative course to take re: average timeline. I’ve mentioned this before, any sort of playoff appearance beyond this season is certainly “about time” territory. For the franchise, more than obviously, but specifically this regime.

Now of course, this is just my view, and opinions aren’t (see: shouldn’t be) static. Adams CAN re-write the narrative. But at this point that would be way of willingly taking a exorbitantly long time to make the playoffs because the success we achieve once there was facilitated by it. Ie: 5 years to just make the playoffs is not “job well done” but if the payoff of that long road is deep playoff runs over the course of this team’s window, that’s a different story and of course that would reflect on the General Manager 

Which is why ALL this is frustrating.  Have been with you all along that the O'Reilly trade was terrible because of the amount of time that was thrown away in getting to an "even" trade. 

Hate that it looks like they once again are going to be on the outside looking in.

But don't see anything indicating that as we speculated far earlier in the season (perhaps even in the off-season) that even if they miss the playoffs Adams and Granato will be back but assistants won't be and Granato will finally be at a point where he's actually coaching for his job.  While for most or-gan-eye-zay-shuns this season would be the season that one or both of Granato and Adams have their jobs on the line; don't believe it's the case.

And IF Adams is right that this team is buliding into one that's going to be a legit competitor for the SC for 8 or 9 of the next 10 years starting next year (or God forbid, even the year following that), then 4 years of failure probably end up getting viewed as acceptable in hindsight.  But it's nowhere near certain that he'll be proven right and even if he is, we're still in the painful rehab after the operation you know will eventually improve your quality of life stage but right now we're in pain and there's no end in sight and maybe the surgeon sold us a bill of goods and those health improvements we were promised won't actually materialize.  It's just frustrating to be here right now.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

"It's just frustrating, inexcusable, and exhausting to be here right now."

(minor edification)

go Sabres

[Stoner]

6 hours ago, SDS said:

apparently, he has nothing better to do than to mock my one post every two weeks.

If that's for me I don't think I mock your posts. But unless I somehow misread it or missed some sarcasm, that one was a doozy.

[Weave]

31 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Which is why ALL this is frustrating.  Have been with you all along that the O'Reilly trade was terrible because of the amount of time that was thrown away in getting to an "even" trade. 

Hate that it looks like they once again are going to be on the outside looking in.

But don't see anything indicating that as we speculated far earlier in the season (perhaps even in the off-season) that even if they miss the playoffs Adams and Granato will be back but assistants won't be and Granato will finally be at a point where he's actually coaching for his job.  While for most or-gan-eye-zay-shuns this season would be the season that one or both of Granato and Adams have their jobs on the line; don't believe it's the case.

And IF Adams is right that this team is buliding into one that's going to be a legit competitor for the SC for 8 or 9 of the next 10 years starting next year (or God forbid, even the year following that), then 4 years of failure probably end up getting viewed as acceptable in hindsight.  But it's nowhere near certain that he'll be proven right and even if he is, we're still in the painful rehab after the operation you know will eventually improve your quality of life stage but right now we're in pain and there's no end in sight and maybe the surgeon sold us a bill of goods and those health improvements we were promised won't actually materialize.  It's just frustrating to be here right now.

4 years of failure is just, failure, for me.  Maybe my mind changes if a cup is hoisted, but I’m not sure it does.  So much can be done inside of the glacial pace we’ve been forced to accept.  We’ve seen teams go from contenders, to rebuild, to contenders again in 4-5 seasons.  Going from inheriting two 2nd overalls and a 1st overall, and adding another 1st overall does not need 4-5 seasons to build a team.  No other team in league history has needed as much time with that much top end talent.

We know that teams plan for ~20% roster turnover each season.  5 seasons is 100% roster turnover.  (I know you, Taro, understand that this is number of players turned over, not actual full rosters, but I state it here before someone yells “balderdash!”).  4-5 seasons is an ETERNITY in the world of professional sports.  Taking that long tells me the GM is either risk averse or too attached to his roster. 

I am 100% sure the tank and subsequent drought has colored my opinion here.  At 13 seasons long, 95% of the players in this league have not seen the Sabres in the playoffs.  Maybe 98%.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Which is why ALL this is frustrating.  Have been with you all along that the O'Reilly trade was terrible because of the amount of time that was thrown away in getting to an "even" trade. 

Hate that it looks like they once again are going to be on the outside looking in.

But don't see anything indicating that as we speculated far earlier in the season (perhaps even in the off-season) that even if they miss the playoffs Adams and Granato will be back but assistants won't be and Granato will finally be at a point where he's actually coaching for his job.  While for most or-gan-eye-zay-shuns this season would be the season that one or both of Granato and Adams have their jobs on the line; don't believe it's the case.

And IF Adams is right that this team is buliding into one that's going to be a legit competitor for the SC for 8 or 9 of the next 10 years starting next year (or God forbid, even the year following that), then 4 years of failure probably end up getting viewed as acceptable in hindsight.  But it's nowhere near certain that he'll be proven right and even if he is, we're still in the painful rehab after the operation you know will eventually improve your quality of life stage but right now we're in pain and there's no end in sight and maybe the surgeon sold us a bill of goods and those health improvements we were promised won't actually materialize.  It's just frustrating to be here right now.

I’m undecided on Granato, I never know how much blame or praise to allot to a coach. Per the bold, you think so? Honestly for me I think a fair line re: axing is after next season, should we miss. This year is a fail if we miss but I think a mulligan is fair. You mentioned the organization isn’t at that point THIS season, and I’d agree, but next season is probably more of an open question. If I had to guess, Adams likely has a leash longer than even next season 

Edited January 21 by Thorny

[sabremike]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

I’m undecided on Granato, I never know how much blame or praise to allot to a coach. Per the bold, you think so? Honestly for me I think a fair line re: axing is after next season, should we miss. This year is a fail if we miss but I think a mulligan is fair. You mentioned the organization isn’t at that point THIS season, and I’d agree, but next season is probably more of an open question. If I had to guess, Adams likely has a leash longer than even next season 

He has through next season because the multi billionaire who destroyed the franchise refuses to pay any coach to not coach.

[That Aud Smell]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:31 PM, sabremike said:

This organization is a pathetic country club which is why Donny and his incompetent staff have jobs for life. Note how they no longer salute fans after their rare home wins after the Fire Donny chants? Too bad nobody in the local hockey media has the courage to point any of this out.

It took a while, but Harrington looked into this. I love how the “veteran Sabre” asked to be nameless but you can absolutely tell who’s confirming that the team decided to snub the fans in order to support Donny (it’s clearly Okposo).

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nhl/sabres/buffalo-sabres-nhl-don-granato-columbus-blue-jackets-toronto-maple-leafs/article_97abb70c-cc5a-11ee-8ab4-1f71e58cc14c.html

“It reached a breaking point with the “Fi-re Don-ny” chants directed at coach Don Granato during a 9-4 loss to Columbus on Dec. 19. The locker room was severely rankled by that outburst and, apparently, the response has been a postgame snub of the fans.

Given anonymity so he could speak freely, a veteran Sabre said simply that the team made a decision to stick together in support of its coach.”

A team decides to snub the fans based on some of the fans audibly expressing frustration.

This is the most toxic franchise in North American pro sports and you can’t convince me otherwise.

And that “unnamed veteran player” is a sh1t leader. Take off, hoser.

[That Aud Smell]

Also: There are plenty of “anonymous” quotes in the article, but I don’t want to implicate copyright issues by dumping all that verbiage here.

[Believer]

Idk who the anonymous player is who spoke with Harrington about the teams recent anger at fans…

Whoever it is lacks the backbone to go on the record criticizing fans who are booing poor performances at home… and those chanting for Granato to be fired… 

If players don’t like the fan reaction, players can decide among themselves to compete hard every night at home, not just some nights… Too often this season the team quit when we got behind early in a game… Fans hate quitters…

It was noted the other night by their coach the Florida Panthers players are accountable to themselves… He pointed to their physicality and the fact their players finish every check and go hard to the net… Our players could learn by Florida’s example… 

As for Adams and Granato, they own the team they put on the ice… Youth and experience aside, attitude is everything, and the fact the players chose to not celebrate a win at home with their fans without prompting speaks worlds about their attitude… This is a leadership issue… GM, Head Coach, and Captain… If players believe there is no need for leadership changes, it is on them to perform for their leaders and their fans.

Grow up, boys. 

 

 

[Buffalonill]

Okposo can write another ***** letter to the fans.

[Doohicksie]

21 minutes ago, Believer said:

booing poor performances at home…

They brought that on themselves.  They got booed at one of the games and came back and won it.  Tuch said the fans were right to boo and it motivated the team to play harder.  Ever since then the fans have been effusive with their boos when the Sabres are flat (which is often).  Careful what you wish for, Alex, it might come true.

[SwampD]

Can anyone think of another player who made themself go offside after making a pass? We’ve seen Dahlin do this more than once. It’s weird. And kinda stupid.

[TageMVP]

16 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Can anyone think of another player who made themself go offside after making a pass? We’ve seen Dahlin do this more than once. It’s weird. And kinda stupid.

His face is kinda stupid and he has stupid little tantrums all game. 

Captain LOL Eichel part two