ESPN: Skinner out ‘week to week’

[SwampD]

46 minutes ago, inkman said:

He’s a great finisher.  I can’t think of another area of the game he excels at.  His decision making is poor.  He coughs up the puck on the PP with regularity.  I’ve seen his teammates purposely pass him up for a pass when he’s wide open because they know the chances are good that the puck will go the other way.  He’s just not a fundamentally sound hockey player.  Great goal scorer.  Don’t ask him to do anything else. 

I'm with JohnC here. What you are describing isn't what I've seen from him this year. And as I said earlier in the year, when Skinner is your grittiest player, you're screwed, and he was for a while.

Also, we need more finishers.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

What is all this negative Skinner talk?  

It sounds like some of Peter’s/Rivet toxic garbage seeping in. 

I disavow those dinosaurs - truly.

That said, I'm just done valuing ostensibly high-performing players on sh1tty Sabre teams.

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Sorry... Swamp nailed it.

When you have all this talent and nothing to show for it in the standings, what else are you supposed to think?

What did Swamp say?

And, yes.

[mjd1001]

I'm good with Skinner.

Is he physical? Not laying out hits on the ice, no. 

Does he play well in his own end?  He doesn't play POORLY in his own end....but that may be because he tries to spend as little time there as possible. I have watched replays of goals allowed where he actually STOPS at the blue line and doesn't even enter the defensive zone.

But...he is a consistent goal scorer.  Don't expect him to carry the team, don't expect him to be a guy that wills the team to victory though his overall game, and I'm good with him for his offensive production.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

I disavow those dinosaurs - truly.

That said, I'm just done valuing ostensibly high-performing players on sh1tty Sabre teams.

What did Swamp say?

And, yes.

"Dahlin is really talented, but boy, he's not that great of a hockey player."

[TageMVP]

Definitely not a good thing. Skinner has his detractors around here, but he's at least been a consistent scorer. 

The Sabres can't have any more injuries if they want to go on a run. I'm more concerned with who they replace him with. I guess it's Oloffsson who I personally don't care much for, but it's better than some 160 pound rookie. 

Time for a trade 

Come on Adams, nows the time. He's had legitimate opportunities with these random injuries. He could inject some life into this team and the fans with a solid trade 

[SwampD]

14 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

"Dahlin is really talented, but boy, he's not that great of a hockey player."

Can confirm.

[inkman]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm good with Skinner.

Is he physical? Not laying out hits on the ice, no. 

Does he play well in his own end?  He doesn't play POORLY in his own end....but that may be because he tries to spend as little time there as possible. I have watched replays of goals allowed where he actually STOPS at the blue line and doesn't even enter the defensive zone.

But...he is a consistent goal scorer.  Don't expect him to carry the team, don't expect him to be a guy that wills the team to victory though his overall game, and I'm good with him for his offensive production.

You can’t play bad defense if you don’t play any at all.  

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

"Dahlin is really talented, but boy, he's not that great of a hockey player."

 

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Can confirm.

I had this exact discussion with @Getpucksdeep just the other night.  Dude has all the talent in the world, too bad only about 30% of it amounts to good hockey. 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

"Dahlin is really talented, but boy, he's not that great of a hockey player."

I could not disagree more.  Unless great means flawless play, for 25+ minutes every night, while surrounded by a fair number of teammates who stand around watching.  

[SwampD]

41 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I could not disagree more.  Unless great means flawless play, for 25+ minutes every night, while surrounded by a fair number of teammates who stand around watching.  

What I meant is that he half ***** it too often. He can get away with it because he makes the play on pure talent alone. If he dug a little deeper, and had more urgency, he'd be generational.

I really can't wait until he returns (like last year) from the All-Star Game where he will be surrounded by others that actually know to play the game right.

[Pimlach]

38 minutes ago, SwampD said:

What I meant is that he half ***** it too often. He can get away with it because he makes the play on pure talent alone. If he dug a little deeper, and had more urgency, he'd be generational.

I really can't wait until he returns (like last year) from the All-Star Game where he will be surrounded by others that actually know to play the game right.

That’s an interesting thought on the All Star game.  His first All Star game he spent time with Hedberg, when he came back he decided to push back and his game got better. He discovered he is pretty strong.  It was a turning point moment.  

Dahlin has never had a veteran defensive leader to work with.  He has never had any top cover.  Since he was 18 he was tossed into the #1 slot.  He actually played 82 games his first year in the NHL. 

Sure he could clean up his game, he gets sloppy at times. Big workloads give you just as many opportunities to screw up as to shine.  

I think he will be great someday.  

Edited January 13 by Pimlach

[sabrefanday1]

With all the negative crap about Skinner I guess we should win a pile of gmes now he is out...

[That Aud Smell]

16 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm good with Skinner.

Don't expect him to carry the team, don't expect him to be a guy that wills the team to victory though his overall game, and I'm good with him for his offensive production.

Respectfully, then, I think you’re good with the Sabres not being a good NHL team.

I want and need more/different from my team’s top winger.

The Hurricanes did too.

[Quint]

When you look at TSN's scouting report about Skinner, you understand a bit more about his game: 

Assets: His skating sets him apart from the pack, thanks to great lower-body strength, quickness and balance. Is also a natural scorer who has the shot, smarts, focus and instincts to produce quality numbers.

Liabilities: CONCUSSIONS have been an issue for him during his NHL career, and he generally lacks upper body strength. As a result, he is not always willing (or able) to win puck battles in the trenches regularly.

Career Potential: Inconsistent sharpshooting winger.

Add on to that list that he's a rat, that he annoys people, including refs, and gets under the skin of opponents (which may cause trouble with more concussions), he has improved on his passing/playmaking capabilities (had a career high of 47 assists last year, making his line even more of a threat), he meshes very well with Tuch and Thompson, with whom he seems to be peaking career-wise, and he has never been on a playoff team. He's a -129 career-wise, reflecting his defensive hesitency. He's also funny as hell, in a concussion-related way.

I like Skinner, despite his flaws. He's just about the best scorer on the Sabres and a good example to young'uns about how to stay in the league and still be relevant at age 31.

I just worry about his concussions. 

 

Edited January 13 by Quint

[mjd1001]

42 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Respectfully, then, I think you’re good with the Sabres not being a good NHL team.

I want and need more/different from my team’s top winger.

The Hurricanes did too.

Not at all, for me its about usage.  Ideally he should be a 2nd/3rd line guy. And I don't mean he needs to adapt to a traditional 3rd line role, I'm talking about minutes.  If he gets 1st unit PP time (3 minutes per game or more) and gets 2nd/3rd line even strength minutes (12.5-13 minutes per game), I think thats good usage.  The fact they put him on the 1st line...that is a totally different problem.

PLUS, I admit he is not good defensively, he doesn't take the body, and he certainly isn't diving to break up passes or block shots. So he's not GOOD defensively.  BUT, he's not as bad as what people say often and here is what I mean by that:  Often times forwards playing in their own zone is not about rushing to the boards to get a loose puck, taking a guy out with a hit..etc. You want your D-men to do that. Your D-men are usually in position to take guys out from the front of the net...your D-men are in the corners more often muscling guys off the puck and getting it out of the zone.  Sometimes the BEST thing a forward can do is just 'hang around' their spot on the ice (top of the faceoff circles, center/slot area) to make sure NO player form the other team goes into those spots.  Compare Skinner to Cozens on goals scored against the Sabres (and I have watched replays of 100+ goals allowed by this team over the past year or so breaking them down frame by frame).  Cozens rushes to the corner...he tries to hit guys...ties guys up....but often to do that he leaves his 'spot' and in the 50% of time the Sabres do NOT win the puck battle, his 'zone' on the ice is now WIDE OPEN, often a prime scoring spot, for a defender to step into and take a shot that leads often to goals.  Skinner on the other hand, rarely engages in loose puck battles, won't go to hit someone in the D-zone, but he hangs around in that spot on his side in the high circle (usually) and 1 of 2 things happen:  1. The Sabres get the loose puck and he is in position to transition it out of the zone.  2) he is just hanging around the top of the circle on his side and when the OTHER team gets the puck they can't simply pass it to a D-man or winger who is WIDE OPEN in that area...because while Skinner may not be engaging anyone, he prevents that pass from being made to someone in a prime scoring spot.

Again, I'm not saying Skinner is good defensively, he isn't 'good'. 

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are times where he won't even enter the d-zone, its like there is an anti-Skinner force field preventing him from crossing his own blue line.  BUT, if he is the teams leading goal scorer, over the past 3 years in the top 3 every year, and he isn't THAT bad at playing zone defense in your own zone, I don't have a problem with him.   Cozens, Mitts, Peterka, sometimes Tuch, Benson, Okposo....all of those guys 'chase' the puck or defenders in the D-zone more than Skinner (showing more effort, yes) but in the replays I have watched more often than not that becomes more of a liability leading to more goals scored against than Skinner causes because they leave wide open areas for opponents to step into.

When playing D in your own zone, you can compare it to the NFL. i want my D-men to play press coverage looking for the Int,  muscling the other teams WR's at the line. But my Forwards? I want them to play more like a Safetey....occupying a zone to simply prevent the ball from being thrown there. Skinner, in NFL terms, would be a TERRIBLE cornerback playing man to man, bump and run coverage. But as a safety, to simply let him occupy that deep zone to prevent a WR from going into it...he's "OK" (most of the time)

As I have said, I have watched the replays of hundreds of goals allowed by the Sabres (and often posted on here my opinion of what I saw).  RARELY are goals allowed a direct result of Skinner making a bad play or a bad decision.  He may not make a flashy defensive play to break up something, but he is hardly ever one of the main reasons for a goal being scored against (as opposed to Power or Cozens and others)

Edited January 13 by mjd1001

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Quint said:

When you look at TSN's scouting report about Skinner, you understand a bit more about his game: 

Assets: His skating sets him apart from the pack, thanks to great lower-body strength, quickness and balance. Is also a natural scorer who has the shot, smarts, focus and instincts to produce quality numbers.

Liabilities: CONCUSSIONS have been an issue for him during his NHL career, and he generally lacks upper body strength. As a result, he is not always willing (or able) to win puck battles in the trenches regularly.

Career Potential: Inconsistent sharpshooting winger.

Add on to that list that he's a rat, that he annoys people, including refs, and gets under the skin of opponents (which may cause trouble with more concussions), he has improved on his passing/playmaking capabilities (had a career high of 47 assists last year, making his line even more of a threat), he meshes very well with Tuch and Thompson, with whom he seems to be peaking career-wise, and he has never been on a playoff team. He's a -129 career-wise, reflecting his defensive hesitency. He's also funny as hell, in a concussion-related way.

I like Skinner, despite his flaws. He's just about the best scorer on the Sabres and a good example to young'uns about how to stay in the league and still be relevant at age 31.

I just worry about his concussions. 

 

He can man the top LW spot for now.  When the Sabres are consistently good, he won’t be in that role, whether it’s for this team or another. 

[ska-T Chitown]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Not at all, for me its about usage.  Ideally he should be a 2nd/3rd line guy. And I don't mean he needs to adapt to a traditional 3rd line role, I'm talking about minutes.  If he gets 1st unit PP time (3 minutes per game or more) and gets 2nd/3rd line even strength minutes (12.5-13 minutes per game), I think thats good usage.  The fact they put him on the 1st line...that is a totally different problem.

PLUS, I admit he is not good defensively, he doesn't take the body, and he certainly isn't diving to break up passes or block shots. So he's not GOOD defensively.  BUT, he's not as bad as what people say often and here is what I mean by that:  Often times forwards playing in their own zone is not about rushing to the boards to get a loose puck, taking a guy out with a hit..etc. You want your D-men to do that. Your D-men are usually in position to take guys out from the front of the net...your D-men are in the corners more often muscling guys off the puck and getting it out of the zone.  Sometimes the BEST thing a forward can do is just 'hang around' their spot on the ice (top of the faceoff circles, center/slot area) to make sure NO player form the other team goes into those spots.  Compare Skinner to Cozens on goals scored against the Sabres (and I have watched replays of 100+ goals allowed by this team over the past year or so breaking them down frame by frame).  Cozens rushes to the corner...he tries to hit guys...ties guys up....but often to do that he leaves his 'spot' and in the 50% of time the Sabres do NOT win the puck battle, his 'zone' on the ice is now WIDE OPEN, often a prime scoring spot, for a defender to step into and take a shot that leads often to goals.  Skinner on the other hand, rarely engages in loose puck battles, won't go to hit someone in the D-zone, but he hangs around in that spot on his side in the high circle (usually) and 1 of 2 things happen:  1. The Sabres get the loose puck and he is in position to transition it out of the zone.  2) he is just hanging around the top of the circle on his side and when the OTHER team gets the puck they can't simply pass it to a D-man or winger who is WIDE OPEN in that area...because while Skinner may not be engaging anyone, he prevents that pass from being made to someone in a prime scoring spot.

Again, I'm not saying Skinner is good defensively, he isn't 'good'. 

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are times where he won't even enter the d-zone, its like there is an anti-Skinner force field preventing him from crossing his own blue line.  BUT, if he is the teams leading goal scorer, over the past 3 years in the top 3 every year, and he isn't THAT bad at playing zone defense in your own zone, I don't have a problem with him.   Cozens, Mitts, Peterka, sometimes Tuch, Benson, Okposo....all of those guys 'chase' the puck or defenders in the D-zone more than Skinner (showing more effort, yes) but in the replays I have watched more often than not that becomes more of a liability leading to more goals scored against than Skinner causes because they leave wide open areas for opponents to step into.

When playing D in your own zone, you can compare it to the NFL. i want my D-men to play press coverage looking for the Int,  muscling the other teams WR's at the line. But my Forwards? I want them to play more like a Safetey....occupying a zone to simply prevent the ball from being thrown there. Skinner, in NFL terms, would be a TERRIBLE cornerback playing man to man, bump and run coverage. But as a safety, to simply let him occupy that deep zone to prevent a WR from going into it...he's "OK" (most of the time)

As I have said, I have watched the replays of hundreds of goals allowed by the Sabres (and often posted on here my opinion of what I saw).  RARELY are goals allowed a direct result of Skinner making a bad play or a bad decision.  He may not make a flashy defensive play to break up something, but he is hardly ever one of the main reasons for a goal being scored against (as opposed to Power or Cozens and others)

I admire your ability and willingness to analyze the game - your takes (even when i have a minor disagreement) are generally pure joy to read. Seriously, no sarcasm.

I'd quibble a bit with the bold in that the strong side winger in most defensive systems (I guess I am making a big leap that we have one) should be actively supporting the D, so 'hanging out' might just be word choice? Also, normally 2 of the 3 of C + 2xD are assumed to actively pressure the puck - strong side winger picking up loose pucks form the scrum, weak side D (or C, I guess) in front of the net with weak side W at the top of the slot (taking away cross ice passes). Obviously, good offensive teams have ways to overload or defeat such a simple system ... but again I think 'system' is a strong word for the footloose and fancy-free chaos that is often the scene in the Buffalo D zone.

I don't know if you look at non-goals, but one thing I *think* I have noticed lately is that when Buffalo gets 3 (or worse, 4) guys at or below their own goal line, they have an enormously hard time breaking the puck out. I think the other teams see this and crash down hard as the Sabres only have 2 men high for breakout. This ties in pretty well with your observations about Cozens (and I have certainly seen Benny do it too, but I still love him) chasing too hard.

I think figuring out how to get the puck out of their own zone while maintaining possession - not just firing it around the boards/glass - would also solve at least 25% of the D-zone issues.

Anyway, cheers! And here's to hoping for a mid-to-upper range miracle in the second half of the season!

[mjd1001]

17 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said:

I don't know if you look at non-goals, but one thing I *think* I have noticed lately is that when Buffalo gets 3 (or worse, 4) guys at or below their own goal line, they have an enormously hard time breaking the puck out. I think the other teams see this and crash down hard as the Sabres only have 2 men high for breakout. This ties in pretty well with your observations about Cozens (and I have certainly seen Benny do it too, but I still love him) chasing too hard.

No, I don't look specifically at non-goals other than when casually watching a game. So yes, there are a lot of break downs and bad plays that happen that I don't look at frame-by-frame...I miss a lot that way.  

And by no means am I saying Skinner is good defensively, he is clearly not and his impact on that side of the game is below average. I guess my point is...better to do nothing and have your simple presence clog up a passing route than to be pulled out of an area and leave it wide open.  

I tried to explain what I was thinking in NFL terms but I might not have done a good job.  Let say a QB wants to throw to a WR 20 yards downfield on the right hashmark. A guy like Skinner, if he does nothing but just happens to be in that area, gets the QB to not throw the ball there.  A guy like one of the young guys (Cozens because he is the easy example for me to use) might be a better defender. More willing to engage the WR, want to make the effort to go for the INT....BUT, all the other team needs to do is run a crossing route 1 second earlier to pull him out of the zone (similar to him chasing the puck into the corner) and BINGO, the spot on the right hashmark is now WIDE open and the play they want to make is there.

Again, Skinner is not a good defender. In NFL terms he isn't a physical CB, he can't cover most WR's Man to man and he isn't really willing to put the effort in. BUT if he simply does not vacate his zone in zone coverage...by him being lazy and bad he is sligthly BETTER than someone who always 'takes the bait' and is always out of position, leaving prime areas open for the opponent.  Again, not an endorsement of Skinner.....just my observation that Krebs and Cozens and even Okposo are the cause of more goals scored against the Sabres by them making bad positional decisions than Skinner.

Of course, as you kinda said, we really don't know what the coaches WANT guys to do.  Do the Sabres run a sound defensive system and some guys just don't grasp it or don't want to? Do the coaches want the forward to engage or not?  Is the sytem the coaches want the players to run actually NOT a good defensive zone system?  We aren't NHL coaches so we really don't know that so all we can do is give opinions based on what we see.

Edited January 13 by mjd1001

[ska-T Chitown]

38 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Of course, as you kinda said, we really don't know what the coaches WANT guys to do.  Do the Sabres run a sound defensive system and some guys just don't grasp it or don't want to? Do the coaches want the forward to engage or not?  Is the sytem the coaches want the players to run actually NOT a good defensive zone system?  We aren't NHL coaches so we really don't know that so all we can do is give opinions based on what we see.

I understood your original point, and I fear it may have been clear that I pretty much agree with what you were saying - more just wanted to "talk shop" about positioning, etc. I totally agree that just being in the way is often times better than being in the absolute wrong spot - 100%.

Fear not, fellow 'Spacer - I don't like coming after people for their opinions (at least about hockey), I actually enjoying learning from others' perspectives on this board! 🙂

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 hours ago, Quint said:

When you look at TSN's scouting report about Skinner, you understand a bit more about his game: 

Assets: His skating sets him apart from the pack, thanks to great lower-body strength, quickness and balance. Is also a natural scorer who has the shot, smarts, focus and instincts to produce quality numbers.

Liabilities: CONCUSSIONS have been an issue for him during his NHL career, and he generally lacks upper body strength. As a result, he is not always willing (or able) to win puck battles in the trenches regularly.

Career Potential: Inconsistent sharpshooting winger.

Add on to that list that he's a rat, that he annoys people, including refs, and gets under the skin of opponents (which may cause trouble with more concussions), he has improved on his passing/playmaking capabilities (had a career high of 47 assists last year, making his line even more of a threat), he meshes very well with Tuch and Thompson, with whom he seems to be peaking career-wise, and he has never been on a playoff team. He's a -129 career-wise, reflecting his defensive hesitency. He's also funny as hell, in a concussion-related way.

I like Skinner, despite his flaws. He's just about the best scorer on the Sabres and a good example to young'uns about how to stay in the league and still be relevant at age 31.

I just worry about his concussions. 

 

To the bold .. dudes obviously have not seen Skinsie shirtless .. I have .. (insert blushing thingie here)

[That Aud Smell]

14 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

The fact they put him on the 1st line...that is a totally different problem.

It is *the* problem with this Sabre player, afaic.