Time for Leadership Change - Trade KO and Give Dahlin the C

[Carmel Corn]

14 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Anyone who feels Okie needs to be removed as a captain should watch this.  
 

There’s no chance a change will happen and it shouldn’t happen. 
 

I have tremendous respect for KO, but as they always say in professional sports....."It's a business!"  I think loyalty is admirable, but it can also be a double-edge sword (sabre) that can blind you from doing what it takes to win.  I'd love to see KO continue with the franchise in a non-player role, but this year's team needs more than what KO can provide on the ice....and maybe it is actually in his best interest to have an opportunity to be part of an actual playoff contender before he hangs up his skates for good.

That said, even if GMKA trades him....it matters not unless he fills the vacancy with the type of player the Sabres actually need (not some Rochester minor league or prospect that is not ready to make the jump)

[Mustache of God]

I still can't believe KA brought back Okposo, Girgensons and Jost. 

[Getpucksdeep]

20 minutes ago, In The Buff said:

for whatever 'leadership' Okposo brings/brought, simply put: it wasnt good enough.

You were the leader of a consistently inconsistent underachieving perennially losing team.

For that alone, along with his age, please go on to other pastures please lol.

Great guy Kyle Okposo, great guy (even tho i dont know him), wish nothing but the best for him. But its been long time to move on. Ive never been a fan of the initial trade to bring him here. Wasnt a fan of extending him. So yeah beyond time to move on imho. Please let this be his final year here. If he would like to go to a contender please do it. I'd like to say he deserves the opportunity if he can get it, but in the 7 years of opportunity here, idk what he deserves tbh. I just want it to be over with.

Right on.  He's leading us to mediocrity and that's being generous. But don't worry we have a bunch of happy and balanced very wealthy young people on our team.  Like, maybe there's less drugs in the locker room?  That can be his legacy.  "family, close knit, no cocaine!"?  Idk.  They are in the entertainment business and they are paid to entertain / win games (and drive operating margin for the owner by making the gd playoffs).  Okposo has not held his teammates accountable.  All you need to do is watch a single shift of Jeff Skinner's to see it.  "North Star" to Jeff Skinner? Absolutely not.  Good guy, but week after week the other team lines up against him and says "Sabres? Pffft, Easy out."

[Porous Five Hole]

It’s really weird to be singling out a third/fourth line guy who gets 14 min a night and is no doubt the grizzly veteran that every team needs. 

[Getpucksdeep]

48 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

It’s really weird to be singling out a third/fourth line guy who gets 14 min a night and is no doubt the grizzly veteran that every team needs. 

Not when he wears the C and claims to be the North Star of a failing team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Perhaps.  You will forgive us for not taking just your word on that.  

All you have to do is listen to the interviews with other players and coaches.  

[Taro T]

26 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

All you have to do is listen to the interviews with other players and coaches.  

Gee, that's helpful.

[Marvin]

52 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

All you have to do is listen to the interviews with other players and coaches.  

 

25 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Gee, that's helpful.

I agree with @GASabresIUFAN, but I have specific ideas on why.  Perhaps you should explain your rationale to @Taro T rather than being so dismissive.

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

4 hours ago, Getpucksdeep said:

Tuch or Cozens can be like Drury, very good player with leadership skills.  I'm not sold on Dahlin as a leader yet and I'm a little snake-bit on the "special player" criteria. My leader needs to take care of the puck always and hold his teammates accountable, lead by example, not just be super skilled and high compete.  Happy to be wrong here and acknowledging Dahlin has grown and will continue to.  And I'm also very ready for change.  And I agree with Inkman the teammates seem to say it, EJ said it a few weeks ago, though it felt weird like a robot saying it (and it's his job, both to mentor and say these words).
 

 

I love EJ. 

The cherry on top is that he has no upper teeth in the front of that veteran grill.

I lost a few teeth along the way and you know what is truer than chicks digging scars ... chicks dig no upper teeth in the grill of a hockey player.  It's truer than true.

[GASabresIUFAN]

50 minutes ago, Marvin said:

 

I agree with @GASabresIUFAN, but I have specific ideas on why.  Perhaps you should explain your rationale to @Taro T rather than being so dismissive.

 

I’m not being dismissive.  How do you distill 50-100 player and coach interviews since camp began to one sound bite?

However, after listening to these interviews one comes away with a distinct impression that the guys on the team look to Dahlin for leadership.  

[Marvin]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m not being dismissive.  How do you distill 50-100 player and coach interviews since camp began to one sound bite?

However, after listening to these interviews one comes away with a distinct impression that the guys on the team look to Dahlin for leadership.  

I agree.  Here is how I see it: Along with the Old Men, Okposo, Girgensons, and Eric Johnson, Dahlin is the only defenceman that forwards mention with respect to his actions and Tuch is the only forward whom the defencemen mention with respect to his actions.  My inference is that they are the only 2 younger players that have some command of the whole room.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I agree.  Here is how I see it: Along with the Old Men, Okposo, Girgensons, and Eric Johnson, Dahlin is the only defenceman that forwards mention with respect to his actions and Tuch is the only forward whom the defencemen mention with respect to his actions.  My inference is that they are the only 2 younger players that have some command of the whole room.

But, GA's contention ISN'T that Dahlin AND Tuch are the leaders.  That was THIS KID's contention.  His is that it's that ONLY Dahlin is the leader.  And when asked to provide support for his view, he comes back with 'well, it just is.' 

[Marvin]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But, GA's contention ISN'T that Dahlin AND Tuch are the leaders.  That was THIS KID's contention.  His is that it's that ONLY Dahlin is the leader.  And when asked to provide support for his view, he comes back with 'well, it just is.' 

Well, Dahlin is a current member of the leadership group.  I think that puts him ahead.  My question is who else can step up?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

Well, Dahlin is a current member of the leadership group.  I think that puts him ahead.  My question is who else can step up?

Is it Tuch's fault that there are 2 ancient F's that are considered the team's leaders but there aren't any ancient D (that have been here more than 30 games)?

This team is kind of in the spot the Bills were with the "bickering Bills" back in '89 leadershipwise.  The younger guys really are (or SHOULD be) the leaders, but the old guys are still looked to as the leaders.  Personally, don't believe it was a coincidence that the team stepped up to another level after Devlin and Smerlas were allowed to leave via Plan B and the team finally became Kelly's, Smith's, and the rest of that bunch.

As far as who else can step up?  Mittelstadt, Cozens, and Thompson all are candidates to join Tuch and Dahlin.  (Though Cozens needs to get out of his own head.)  In the not too distant future Quinn, Peterka, Benson, Johnson, and maybe Power should be right up there as well.  And expect Levi will be a leader on this squad by then as well.

REALLY don't want to see this team get back to where it was early in the Pegula tenure with outsiders getting the C either in short order or immediately like Ott, Rivet, Gionta.  Nothing against any of them, but it was telling that no leaders (other than Vanek of all people, who split the C with Ott) were on the team that had come up through their system by the time Ott was given a partial C.  Don't expect it will go back to that anytime soon.

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Is it Tuch's fault that there are 2 ancient F's that are considered the team's leaders but there aren't any ancient D (that have been here more than 30 games)?

This team is kind of in the spot the Bills were with the "bickering Bills" back in '89 leadershipwise.  The younger guys really are (or SHOULD be) the leaders, but the old guys are still looked to as the leaders.  Personally, don't believe it was a coincidence that the team stepped up to another level after Devlin and Smerlas were allowed to leave via Plan B and the team finally became Kelly's, Smith's, and the rest of that bunch.

As far as who else can step up?  Mittelstadt, Cozens, and Thompson all are candidates to join Tuch and Dahlin.  (Though Cozens needs to get out of his own head.)  In the not too distant future Quinn, Peterka, Benson, Johnson, and maybe Power should be right up there as well.  And expect Levi will be a leader on this squad by then as well.

REALLY don't want to see this team get back to where it was early in the Pegula tenure with outsiders getting the C either in short order or immediately like Ott, Rivet, Gionta.  Nothing against any of them, but it was telling that no leaders (other than Vanek of all people, who split the C with Ott) were on the team that had come up through their system by the time Ott was given a partial C.  Don't expect it will go back to that anytime soon.

I am not faulting Tuch. Just pointed out that Dahlin is already an official part of leadership.

It is possible that the Sabres need to move on from Okposo and Girgensons to take the next step.  I don't know 

[klos1963]

It wouldn't change a damn thing.

[French Collection]

I doubt KO wants to leave, even for a playoff run. Who would engrave the participation trophies?

He is a great person and has taught these young guys a lot about being pros and good people.

He has played over 1000 games but only 24 playoff games. Buffalo is partly responsible for that but KO doesn’t know how to win.
 

When I think about accountability it means that the leadership group  (Owner, GM, Coaches, Captain) should have a prickly element to their personalities. When the time comes to call someone out you do it. Not everyone is cut out for that role and it doesn’t seem to be a part of any of those guys’ makeup.

Dahlin gets my vote because he drives play, defends hard and has an edge.

With that being said they still need to bring in some veteran grit that has won something.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Tuch, Greenway, Clifton and EJ all came from winning teams. EJ won a Cup in Colorado.  Tuch made 3 deep runs with LV.  All add grit and competitiveness.  None of them have really changed the direction of the franchise.  

LV swaps Eichel for Tuch and Eichel wins a Cup. LV built a winning culture in one off-season as an expansion team.  Boston sees Bergeron, Krejci, Clifton and others leave and they continue to excel.  What are we missing?  Accountability!  On those teams you are expected to win. No such expectation here since the tank.  

There has been a 3 headed leadership monster here since KA became the GM in Adams, DG and Okposo.  The funny thing is Adams won a Cup as a player yet doesn’t have a clue how to build a winning culture.  It’s time to change the dynamic.  Since I doubt TP is moving on from his yes men KA and DG (yet), the first change needs to be KO.  

 

[Archie Lee]

Yesterday while I was commuting, NHL Radio had a member of the Capitals broadcast crew on. They asked him about the motivation for the Caps’ signing of Ethan Bear. He stated that the Capitals had become an older team and they were making a conscious effort to bring in younger players, basically doing a bit of a reset on the go. It occurred to me at that moment just how young the Sabres are. If Ethan Bear was signed by the Sabres he would be our 3rd oldest D-man. The Caps, who had 3 veteran right shot D already, brought him in as a step towards getting younger.

We are too young to seriously compete in the NHL. There are many things wrong with this year’s team, from bad off-season decisions to poor play and bad coaching. Kyle Okposo’s leadership and on-ice performance has not been one of the problems.
 

 

[klos1963]

19 hours ago, In The Buff said:

for whatever 'leadership' Okposo brings/brought, simply put: it wasnt good enough.

You were the leader of a consistently inconsistent underachieving perennially losing team.

For that alone, along with his age, please go on to other pastures please lol.

Great guy Kyle Okposo, great guy (even tho i dont know him), wish nothing but the best for him. But its been long time to move on. Ive never been a fan of the initial trade to bring him here. Wasnt a fan of extending him. So yeah beyond time to move on imho. Please let this be his final year here. If he would like to go to a contender please do it. I'd like to say he deserves the opportunity if he can get it, but in the 7 years of opportunity here, idk what he deserves tbh. I just want it to be over with.

He was a free agent, we didn't trade for him.

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

We are too young to seriously compete in the NHL. There are many things wrong with this year’s team, from bad off-season decisions to poor play and bad coaching. Kyle Okposo’s leadership and on-ice performance has not been one of the problems.

I don't buy that at all. The team's average age is about 25.5, or in other words, a team entering their prime. We have 7 players 28 to 35.  We have 3 players who are at or near 1000 NHL games (KO, EJ, and Skinner). Girgensons is near 650.   Dahlin, Mitts, TNT, Tuch, Joki, Jost, and Greenway, the team's "young core," all have 300 to 450 games under their belts.    This is a team that should be blossoming into a contender now.  

Coaching is certainly an issue.  Roster construction (not enough good players) is certainly an issue.  The raw goaltending, the only area without real experience, is certainly an issue.  However, KO's leadership is also an issue.  

Back when the TM rebuild failed, we discussed whether having a depth forward or D as the captain was a good idea.  Sure he might be respected in the locker room as a person, but his on-ice contributions were limited.  We also discussed giving Eichel the C way too soon. There is a balance somewhere in there.  We need a respected player in the locker room, who also contributes on the ice.  Back in the day, Drury, Briere, and Teppo were the leaders.  They demanded winning and they played to that level.  They lead by words and deeds if you will.  KO can't do that.  He is a great person and has created a united bunch, but he can't elevate his play enough to carry the team forward and that is part of what this team needs.   

[Archie Lee]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't buy that at all. The team's average age is about 25.5, or in other words, a team entering their prime. We have 7 players 28 to 35.  We have 3 players who are at or near 1000 NHL games (KO, EJ, and Skinner). Girgensons is near 650.   Dahlin, Mitts, TNT, Tuch, Joki, Jost, and Greenway, the team's "young core," all have 300 to 450 games under their belts.    This is a team that should be blossoming into a contender now.  

Coaching is certainly an issue.  Roster construction (not enough good players) is certainly an issue.  The raw goaltending, the only area without real experience, is certainly an issue.  However, KO's leadership is also an issue.  

Back when the TM rebuild failed, we discussed whether having a depth forward or D as the captain was a good idea.  Sure he might be respected in the locker room as a person, but his on-ice contributions were limited.  We also discussed giving Eichel the C way too soon. There is a balance somewhere in there.  We need a respected player in the locker room, who also contributes on the ice.  Back in the day, Drury, Briere, and Teppo were the leaders.  They demanded winning and they played to that level.  They lead by words and deeds if you will.  KO can't do that.  He is a great person and has created a united bunch, but he can't elevate his play enough to carry the team forward and that is part of what this team needs.   

We are one of the 1 or 2 youngest teams in the league. Our average age does not place us as being a team on the cusp of its prime. The middle spine of our team (Thompson, Mitts, Cozens, Krebs, Dahlin, Sammy, Joker, Power, UPL and Levi) started the season with an average age of 22.8. It will be 3-4 years before they reach their collective prime. We are augmenting this group with players like Peterka, Quinn, Benson, R. Johnson and likely soon Kulich, Rosen and Savoie, only making us younger.  

Removing Okposo does not improve our PP, it doesn’t make our goalies more experienced, it doesn’t improve our D structure and it certainly doesn’t make up for the fact that Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Olofsson are on pace to score less than 1/2 of the 142 goals they scored a year ago. 
 

Okposo is most likely in his final year here. I would not have any great concern if he was moved via trade. His time as a Sabre is passing to be sure. But moving on from Okposo as the captain does not begin to address the issues with this team.  Okposo’s presence on this team is not the problem. 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

We are one of the 1 or 2 youngest teams in the league. Our average age does not place us as being a team on the cusp of its prime. The middle spine of our team (Thompson, Mitts, Cozens, Krebs, Dahlin, Sammy, Joker, Power, UPL and Levi) started the season with an average age of 22.8. It will be 3-4 years before they reach their collective prime. We are augmenting this group with players like Peterka, Quinn, Benson, R. Johnson and likely soon Kulich, Rosen and Savoie, only making us younger.  

Removing Okposo does not improve our PP, it doesn’t make our goalies more experienced, it doesn’t improve our D structure and it certainly doesn’t make up for the fact that Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Olofsson are on pace to score less than 1/2 of the 142 goals they scored a year ago. 
 

Okposo is most likely in his final year here. I would not have any great concern if he was moved via trade. His time as a Sabre is passing to be sure. But moving on from Okposo as the captain does not begin to address the issues with this team.  Okposo’s presence on this team is not the problem. 

This is why @GASabresIUFAN, @PerreaultForever, and I wanted more veterans in the line-up for the youngsters to displace as they grew up.  Maybe the reputation of the Sabres' organisation is such that the only players the team can get are like 2 years ago, with a bunch of marginal NHLers and has-beens.  I wonder what else can be done.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

This is why @GASabresIUFAN, @PerreaultForever, and I wanted more veterans in the line-up for the youngsters to displace as they grew up.  Maybe the reputation of the Sabres' organisation is such that the only players the team can get are like 2 years ago, with a bunch of marginal NHLers and has-beens.  I wonder what else can be done.

Trades.  Not every player has an NTC/NMC.  If you can't get players to sign here until you prove you are a winning organization, then KA is going to have to take a risk or 3 and trade a precious prospect or draft picks or both to fill his roster holes.  The biggest issue here is our pro scouting staff. So far the players they are recommending to KA haven't exactly elevated the team.  

[Marvin]

25 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Trades.  Not every player has an NTC/NMC.  If you can't get players to sign here until you prove you are a winning organization, then KA is going to have to take a risk or 3 and trade a precious prospect or draft picks or both to fill his roster holes.  The biggest issue here is our pro scouting staff. So far the players they are recommending to KA haven't exactly elevated the team.  

GMKA has to be willing to trade high ceiling prospects for established veterans.  If it is true that it is hard to sign people in the off-season, then he needs to figure out hockey trades with teams looking to rebuild or another team that needs a shake up.  I don't see any way around it.