Are the Forwards good enough ?

[Crusader1969]

Once healthy the top 9 would consist of 

Skinner Thompson Tuch

JJP Cozens  Quinn

Greenway. Mitts.  Benson

eventually you could replace greenway with Rosen, Kulich or Savoie and put JG on the 4th line     

IF you had a proper 4th line.   Is this good enough to compete ? If not this season , next ? Or do you need to bring in another legit top 9? 

IMHO, this is a pretty good lineup as long as you supplement it with a hard working , forechecking 4th line that brings it every night.  
 

If I'm looking ahead to next year I'm putting together 
Greenway.  Krebs and  William Carrier (UFA) is my 4th line.   Carrier has been described as a wrecking ball on skates. 
 

Grigs can come back as 13th forward.  I want my 14th guy to be a heart and soul type as well 

if one of the top 9 get hurt.  With 2 of Kulich, Savoie and Rosen (1 being on the Sabres) in the AHL  they should be able to fill in 

Sad I'm already thinking next season but that's where things are.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

The answer is no.  The forwards aren't good enough.  TNT, Cozens, and Skinner remain allergic to backchecking.  I'm also not sure Rosen and Kulich will be ready next season or Savoie for that matter.  Greenway is a 4th liner next season and if I were in charge, I'd move on from all of Jost, Krebs, Z, KO, and VO.  

Mitts is also now the 2nd line center.   I might also move Cozens to wing since he can't win a draw to save his life.  If management like Rosen or Kulich's progress, maybe they can trade Skinner for center depth.  Boone Jenner would look great in the 3rd center slot.  

Cozens TNT Tuch

JJP Mitts Benson

Skinner ???? Quinn

Greenway ????? Rosen?

 

 

[RochesterExpat]

50 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Boone Jenner would look great in the 3rd center slot.  

I like the idea but which winger(s) actually complement him? 

[Second Line Center]

4 of those top 9 are under 22 years old. 
 

3 of our D men are under 23 years old.  
 

I think we just overestimated how good they’d get in a short time.  It’s not realistic.  
 

They aren’t surrounded by the right pieces to show them how to compete every shift on D especially and with some toughness.  
 

Roster construction has been - let’s just roll with our highly skilled inexperienced easy to play against young guys - where the D is also too young and will be up and down. 
 

Then on top of that let’s not get a legit goalie to allow them to feel free to take chances.  
 

AND on top of that we have a coach that’s great at developing players but not so much countering what other coaches are doing to us.  

[Norcal]

Serious question.

Can toughness and grit be developed in a player or do they have to come by it naturally? 

 

[Carmel Corn]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The answer is no.  The forwards aren't good enough.  TNT, Cozens, and Skinner remain allergic to backchecking.  I'm also not sure Rosen and Kulich will be ready next season or Savoie for that matter.  Greenway is a 4th liner next season and if I were in charge, I'd move on from all of Jost, Krebs, Z, KO, and VO.  

Mitts is also now the 2nd line center.   I might also move Cozens to wing since he can't win a draw to save his life.  If management like Rosen or Kulich's progress, maybe they can trade Skinner for center depth.  Boone Jenner would look great in the 3rd center slot.  

Cozens TNT Tuch

JJP Mitts Benson

Skinner ???? Quinn

Greenway ????? Rosen?

 

 

Trade Skinner?  Not likely with his contract....unless the Sabres are willing to eat a significant portion of it (which won't happen either).

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carmel Corn

[LGR4GM]

No, I don't think the forwards or the defense is good enough. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No, I don't think the forwards or the defense is good enough. 

The simplest and most direct answer is often the best answer.

[mjd1001]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The answer is no.  The forwards aren't good enough.  TNT, Cozens, and Skinner remain allergic to backchecking.  I'm also not sure Rosen and Kulich will be ready next season or Savoie for that matter.  Greenway is a 4th liner next season and if I were in charge, I'd move on from all of Jost, Krebs, Z, KO, and VO.  

Mitts is also now the 2nd line center.   I might also move Cozens to wing since he can't win a draw to save his life.  If management like Rosen or Kulich's progress, maybe they can trade Skinner for center depth.  Boone Jenner would look great in the 3rd center slot.  

Cozens TNT Tuch

JJP Mitts Benson

Skinner ???? Quinn

Greenway ????? Rosen?

 

 

Agree with you on Skinner and Cozens. TNT?  I do see him hold his position better than the other ones in the D-zone and his reach helps him in a lot of situations.

Skinner and Cozens are terrible in the D-zone though. They have to score at a 30+ goal pace to be of any use.  Skinner still is...Cozens obvioulsy isn't even close.  2 Last week I posted about all the goals allowed by the Sabes in a game, Cozens play positionally (or as far as losing loose pucks) in his own zone was directly responsible for 2 goals and played a part in a 3rd goal allowed, in one single game.

I"m not sure why the rush is there to move on from Zemgus by so many.  Hes no great, but he skates hard, doesn't make a lot of mistakes in his own zone, and honestly scores at a decent rate for a 4th liner.  Above average at Penalty killing. Okposo needs to be gone though, and Jost?  Last year he was a good 4th line center this year he hasn't been.

Peterka is good. He's not great in his own zone, but he isn't as bad as Cozens or Krebs.  

[DarthEbriate]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Mitts is also now the 2nd line center.   I might also move Cozens to wing since he can't win a draw to save his life. 

And yet, Cozens has far and away the best faceoff percentage on the team (except for Girgensons' tiny sample size). But I agree with you that Cozens needs to go to wing for a season to be able to simplify his game. Reinhart did it (and then they foolishly never moved him back to center after trading ROR). Cozens is still only 22 years old, he doesn't need to be a center in the defensive zone just yet.

[Archie Lee]

The answer is: we don’t know. 
 

In hindsight, for me anyway, the start to the season shouldn’t be surprising. Our centre spine of Thompson, Mittelstadt, Cozens and Krebs has an average age of 23. I still think they could be the centre spine of a contending team, but it is likely a shock to very few people outside of fans like me, whose hope and excitement got a little in the way of reason, that it hasn’t turned out that way this season. 
 

Add in that Tuch has been less than 100% or out of the line-up, that other vets have been injured (Greenway, Girgs) or ineffective at times (Okposo, Olofsson, Jost) and that the roster is otherwise full of youngsters (Peterka, Benson, Rosen, a top four D with an avg age of 22, and a top goalie pair with avg age also 22) and maybe the odd thing is that any of us imagine they could be consistently good. 
 

I don’t know the answer, but replacing our 4th liners (Okposo, Girgs, Jost) and Olofsson with out best prospects won’t make us better anytime soon. 

[Crusader1969]

4 hours ago, Norcal said:

Serious question.

Can toughness and grit be developed in a player or do they have to come by it naturally? 

 

I think it can come from within.  Though preferably it's natural 

I honestly think that ones "balls" (as Torts would say) can grow if you add toughness on the 4th line.   You know you have guys who will have your back. Also, a true energy line will energize the entire team, not just the one line.   
 

I really want to see Carrier back in a Sabres uniform (UFA in Vegas) and if Philly drops out of the race - what would it take to bring back Deslauriers back.  Probably would have to overpay what you usually would for a 4th liner but worth it.    Sad that the guys this team desperately need were here and discarded.   Add Foligno to that list as guys they should have never traded away 

4 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Trade Skinner?  Not likely with his contract....unless the Sabres are willing to eat a significant portion of it (which won't happen either).

Has a NTC too 

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No, I don't think the forwards or the defense is good enough. 

Give us our solution when you have time 

[Pimlach]

14 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Once healthy the top 9 would consist of 

Skinner Thompson Tuch

JJP Cozens  Quinn

Greenway. Mitts.  Benson

eventually you could replace greenway with Rosen, Kulich or Savoie and put JG on the 4th line     

IF you had a proper 4th line.   Is this good enough to compete ? If not this season , next ? Or do you need to bring in another legit top 9? 

IMHO, this is a pretty good lineup as long as you supplement it with a hard working , forechecking 4th line that brings it every night.  
 

If I'm looking ahead to next year I'm putting together 
Greenway.  Krebs and  William Carrier (UFA) is my 4th line.   Carrier has been described as a wrecking ball on skates. 
 

Grigs can come back as 13th forward.  I want my 14th guy to be a heart and soul type as well 

if one of the top 9 get hurt.  With 2 of Kulich, Savoie and Rosen (1 being on the Sabres) in the AHL  they should be able to fill in 

Sad I'm already thinking next season but that's where things are.  

I don't think the current forward group is good enough.  When healthy, it is ok, but lacks the gritty stuff we talk about a lot. 

Carrier was a Sabre in 2016-17.  I think we left him unprotected and Vegas picked him in the entry draft.  He is a hard working 4th line banger and an original Golden Knight, proving that good teams know the value of the good lunch pail guys as much as the stars.  You need both.  

He is a UFA next season and I seriously doubt he would be interested in coming back to a team that has spun its wheels and had no success in the 7 years since he was last here.  

 

[Marvin]

They are certainly not good enough this year.  But enough of them are far too young for anyone to draw any conclusions.  People here look like they would have given up on Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara, Tage Thompson, and Alex Tuch, to name 4, because they were done developing at 22.

[Mango]

I think they are all good pieces. But they aren't complete enough to carry anything. 

The goal for the next season should be to move Greenway and even Tuch to the 3rd line. That doesn't meaning let Kulich struggle on the wing to find his NHL game. That means immediately upgrading those two positions in the top 6. Those two guys have the skill set to play that line, and they can put pucks in the net.

A pipe dream would be to do it internally. Something like: 

Skinner - Thompson - Cozens
JJP - Mitts - Benson 
Greenway - ??? - Tuch

If you can get some return on Skinner you could move JJP up and if Quinn finds his game he can play the second line. 

(Does anybody else have a tough time with formatting on SS compared to TBD. My spacing is sometimes wonky and impossible to fix. @SDS)

Edited December 7, 2023 by Mango

[matter2003]

Plenty good enough.  When they want to be. You don't go from looking like the Harlem Globetrotters on Ice 75% of the time last year making teams look ridiculous for most of the game to "not good enough" overnight. How many times did we watch teams hemmed in their own end for 2 minutes at a time as the Sabres cycled the puck, skated circles around them and had a shooting gallery going on?

This team is playing with no desire, no confidence and no "get up and get it" right now.  They are playing as if they are looking over their shoulder for something bad to happen and then when it does they get into a "Oh no! Here we go again!" mode. Then by the time they snap out of it and actually start playing, they are down 2,3,4-0 and it's too late most games.  Sure they have some "almost" come back games and a few actual comeback games(like the Pens game), but this is not a way to win consistently in the NHL.  

They have no direction, no structure, Granato has them unsure of what to do now because they aren't playing their style from last year but aren't really playing a defensive style either, they are kind of in No Man's Land trying to play both and it's not working.  Honestly, he just needs to let them go back to how they played last year. They have the talent to outscore a lot of teams, that might have to be good enough this year.

Granato told them to play fearless last year and they did...this year they are playing FEARFUL and you can't win like that.

Honestly if I was Granato I would have my video assistant make a highlight reel clip of their goals from last year when they looked at their best and have them watch it and tell them this is who you are now go play like it.

Edited December 7, 2023 by matter2003

[SabreFinn]

No. They are not good enough. But I do not think they are far from it either. What they need is bottom line centers that can win face offs and play a solid two way game, a veteran. But where to find those, that is the big question... Mikael Granlund,  Pageau, Henrique and Bjugstad could do the job.

And Kevyn Adams seems to be greed,  he does not gamble and he do not trade away something more valuable than late round picks and low grade prospects. 

I also think they should try to aquire Chris Tanev and send Clifton to Alberta.

Greetings from a fan from Finland!

[RochesterExpat]

6 hours ago, Norcal said:

Can toughness and grit be developed in a player or do they have to come by it naturally? 

 

That's honestly a really good question. I think the core of it is maturity. We see a lot of players who lack toughness/grit "find" it in their game after a few years in the AHL or NHL. Generally, the players who develop grit/toughness are the same players who dominated junior hockey and it was an unused part of the game simply because they were just that much more talented than others (and played with other superstars themselves). 

Is that something that developed from coaching? Is it a natural evolution stemming from a need to adapt to survive in a league of relative parity? Is it just a consequence of physical growth and mental maturity? Or is it some internal motivation coming from looking at your NHL-level teammates and realizing these are guys playing playoff series with broken ribs?

I haven't a clue.

[matter2003]

1 minute ago, RochesterExpat said:

That's honestly a really good question. I think the core of it is maturity. We see a lot of players who lack toughness/grit "find" it in their game after a few years in the AHL or NHL. Generally, the players who develop grit/toughness are the same players who dominated junior hockey and it was an unused part of the game simply because they were just that much more talented than others (and played with other superstars themselves). 

Is that something that developed from coaching? Is it a natural evolution stemming from a need to adapt to survive in a league of relative parity? Is it just a consequence of physical growth and mental maturity? Or is it some internal motivation coming from looking at your NHL-level teammates and realizing these are guys playing playoff series with broken ribs?

I haven't a clue.

Some of it is maturing into their bodies and learning how to use it in that way because they never really had to since they were always the star players on their teams.

[pi2000]

They're good enough.   

The coaching is not.

[SDS]

44 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think they are all good pieces. But they aren't complete enough to carry anything. 

The goal for the next season should be to move Greenway and even Tuch to the 3rd line. That doesn't meaning let Kulich struggle on the wing to find his NHL game. That means immediately upgrading those two positions in the top 6. Those two guys have the skill set to play that line, and they can put pucks in the net.

A pipe dream would be to do it internally. Something like: 

Skinner - Thompson - Cozens
JJP - Mitts - Benson 

Greenway - ??? - Tuch

If you can get some return on Skinner you could move JJP up and if Quinn finds his game he can play the second line. 

(Does anybody else have a tough time with formatting on SS compared to TBD. My spacing is sometimes wonky and impossible to fix. @SDS)

They are both running the same software. Clear your caches.

[Carmel Corn]

"Eventually" there may be enough for 3 good lines, but not today (too young).  4th line is a definite NO...what we need for the 4th line are players who are currently not in the organization anywhere and need to be acquired.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carmel Corn

[Crusader1969]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I don't think the current forward group is good enough.  When healthy, it is ok, but lacks the gritty stuff we talk about a lot. 

Carrier was a Sabre in 2016-17.  I think we left him unprotected and Vegas picked him in the entry draft.  He is a hard working 4th line banger and an original Golden Knight, proving that good teams know the value of the good lunch pail guys as much as the stars.  You need both.  

He is a UFA next season and I seriously doubt he would be interested in coming back to a team that has spun its wheels and had no success in the 7 years since he was last here.  

 

Money talks.  Like most UFA's the Sabres would have to overpay... just like they did with Clifton

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

They are certainly not good enough this year.  But enough of them are far too young for anyone to draw any conclusions.  People here look like they would have given up on Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara, Tage Thompson, and Alex Tuch, to name 4, because they were done developing at 22.

 

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

They are certainly not good enough this year.  But enough of them are far too young for anyone to draw any conclusions.  People here look like they would have given up on Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara, Tage Thompson, and Alex Tuch, to name 4, because they were done developing at 22.

I was thinking more of going forward with this group into next.  This year is over ... 

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, pi2000 said:

They're good enough.   

The coaching is not.

Yes coaching is definitely an issue.   I look forward to seeing them at full health in January.  We should find out over the last 50 games if this is a group you can go into next year with. 
 

[Norcal]

8 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

I think it can come from within.  Though preferably it's natural 

I honestly think that ones "balls" (as Torts would say) can grow if you add toughness on the 4th line.   You know you have guys who will have your back. Also, a true energy line will energize the entire team, not just the one line.   
 

I really want to see Carrier back in a Sabres uniform (UFA in Vegas) and if Philly drops out of the race - what would it take to bring back Deslauriers back.  Probably would have to overpay what you usually would for a 4th liner but worth it.    Sad that the guys this team desperately need were here and discarded.   Add Foligno to that list as guys they should have never traded away 

Has a NTC too 

Give us our solution when you have time 

I like Carrier. Always have.