Postgame Sound 12/2

[phil_soisson]

55 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I understand this sentiment.  But Bowman and Ruff had many stretches as coaches of the Sabres where their anger and outrage and efforts to light fires got them nothing.  It's just not that simple.

You're right, it's not that simple, but Granato's "more compete" schtick was tired last year.

[Goldseatsaud]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Bills culture under McDermott is totally different and much better.  
 

 The biggest thing hurting the Bills has been game day coaching.  McD is a very good coach, you have to be a bit better to win it all and when he had the opportunity on game day, he did not deliver (13 seconds is a great example).  Winning those 13 seconds gives him a home game to get to the Super Bowl.  

Game day coaching is horrible. If Allen was here how many wins?

[Cascade Youth]

I am increasingly of the view that the problem is at the top: the owner has no clue, still, how to hire folks and how to set standards that elevate the organization.  The Sabres are someone’s poorly-run and neglected hobby.

[Marvin]

To me, there are a lot of little problems that contribute to this issue.

Last year, we were incredibly lucky with injuries to the forwards.  That masked the depth issues that we are seeing this year.  @PerreaultForever was the loudest on the need for forwards this off-season and his reasoning has been accurate.

Much of the team is a bit too young and/or inexperienced at the NHL level to be consistent.  This team can be defencively responsible and can be tough to play against, but the youth is not able to do both consistently.  Also, I imagine that the coach is having a hard time getting things to work in practice given how the games sometimes go.

There are too few players like Girgensons and Greenway who are physical with the opposition -- and several of us wish that there were more like them.  With the injuries, that bottom 6 is just way too soft.

I am still trying to figure out where the scoring went.

As you can see, we have some set of problems from the make-up of the team from the GM to the coaching of the team to the players 

[jad1]

46 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Good point. And not only that, but the Sabres were Lindy’s first head coaching gig. Granato has been a coach at every level of hockey and has routinely gotten winning results.  

How is this a good point?  The Sabres made the Stanley Cup final in Ruff's 2nd season.  The Sabres have  missed the playoffs Granato's 3 seasons.  There are no comparisons between the two.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

How is this a good point?  The Sabres made the Stanley Cup final in Ruff's 2nd season.  The Sabres have  missed the playoffs Granato's 3 seasons.  There are no comparisons between the two.

To be fair to Granato, Ruff had Hasek to cover up all of his mistakes.  One description of the 1997-8 Buffalo Sabres from that season was "hilariously inept."  Game 5 of the Washington series was on YouTube if you want to see how bad it could get.

[steveoat87]

The one thing players want is playing time.  I would sit those who are making dumb mistakes or showing maximum effort.  While it may contribute to some immediate losses, many benefit the team in the long run.

[jad1]

43 minutes ago, Marvin said:

To be fair to Granato, Ruff had Hasek to cover up all of his mistakes.  One description of the 1997-8 Buffalo Sabres from that season was "hilariously inept."  Game 5 of the Washington series was on YouTube if you want to see how bad it could get.

I followed Ruff's teams.  Generational goalie with an undermanned offense.  You want me to re-watch Game 5 of CONFERENCE FINAL to make the point that Ruff was 'hilariously inept?'   Why don't I watch all of Granato's 'incredibly competent' playoff wins.  That aren't any? Okay.

Granato's team was the third highest scoring team in the league last season and ended up with a negative goal differential.  His Sabres had 5 20+ goal scores and the team finished 19th in the league.  The last time the Sabres had that many 20+goal scorers they won the President's Trophy.  Under Ruff.

And we can all blame the goaltenders under Granato, but he's been more than happy to share his offense-first philosophy with anyone who would listen the last three years.  No surprise that the team defense under Granato has been "hilariously inept."

So you want to frame an evaluation of Granato's performance against Krueger or Housley or Bylsma, feel free.  But let's be careful when comparing him to a coach who could actually, you know, coach.

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, jad1 said:

How is this a good point?  The Sabres made the Stanley Cup final in Ruff's 2nd season.  The Sabres have  missed the playoffs Granato's 3 seasons.  There are no comparisons between the two.

Correlation does not imply causation. Did Ruff need to beat a Krueger stink off a team? Did Ruff get handed the youngest team in hockey? Did Ruff get a rookie goalie to roll with in his second and third full season (UPL last year and Levi this year)?

Of course not.  But please continue.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Kind of takes me back to 1986.  The team was also considered to be too "soft" from the 85-86 season, and so they tried to "toughen up" by acquiring Clark Gilles and Wilf Paiement during the off-season. 

The Sabres being too soft has been there a few times over the years for sure. In some ways we lost the cup to Philly because we were too soft compared to that goon squad, even though that team in it's prime would have tossed this team around like rag dolls. Different era, but everything's relative. 

The thing with what you say is in the past they at least recognized it and tried to address it. We have ditched any toughness we have had and have had little interest in resolving or recognizing the issue as an issue. Hathaway for example was still available late in free agency. DesLauriers was on this roster but we had no use for him. I know a lot of people on this board don't value these things but if you watch any Philly games he's a leader. He's one of those last off the ice guys giving everybody a pat on the back after a win and various words. He's like a big tough older brother for their younger guys and they all play bigger as a result. 

Imagine how aggressive Krebs would be if he knew he had a DesLauriers right there to get his back should a big guy challenge him. Guys on this roster do not fully put out because they know they might be on their own. 

I said last year when Tampa made that huge overpay for Jeannot I'd have made the same deal if I was KA. Sure it was an overpay, but adding one of the toughest guys in the league to your roster (who isn't a terrible player either) is something you don't get to do every day. Give a pile of picks away for that any day. 

The problem should have been recognized and addressed already, but needs to be addressed now for sure. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

To be fair to Granato, Ruff had Hasek to cover up all of his mistakes.  One description of the 1997-8 Buffalo Sabres from that season was "hilariously inept."  Game 5 of the Washington series was on YouTube if you want to see how bad it could get.

Exactly why KA should have addressed goaltending FIRST in his tear down/rebuild plan. 

[Marvin]

57 minutes ago, jad1 said:

I followed Ruff's teams.  Generational goalie with an undermanned offense.  You want me to re-watch Game 5 of CONFERENCE FINAL to make the point that Ruff was 'hilariously inept?'   Why don't I watch all of Granato's 'incredibly competent' playoff wins.  That aren't any? Okay.

...

And we can all blame the goaltenders under Granato, but he's been more than happy to share his offense-first philosophy with anyone who would listen the last three years.  No surprise that the team defense under Granato has been "hilariously inept."

Yes, the Conference Finals.  The Sabres committed mistake after mistake only to get bailed out by Hasek time and again.  Frankly, I had forgotten how embarrassing that game should have been had Shannon not got the GWG in the 3rd.  Honestly, the difference in the forward play in the defencive zone from the 1998 playoffs to the 1999 playoffs was pretty wide.  Obviously, adding Stu Barnes and Rhett Warrener helped a lot too.

I agree with you that this team, particularly the forwards, are often hilariously inept in the defensive zone.  It is better than last year, but that is damning it with faint praise.

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

To me, there are a lot of little problems that contribute to this issue.

Last year, we were incredibly lucky with injuries to the forwards.  That masked the depth issues that we are seeing this year.  @PerreaultForever was the loudest on the need for forwards this off-season and his reasoning has been accurate.

Much of the team is a bit too young and/or inexperienced at the NHL level to be consistent.  This team can be defencively responsible and can be tough to play against, but the youth is not able to do both consistently.  Also, I imagine that the coach is having a hard time getting things to work in practice given how the games sometimes go.

There are too few players like Girgensons and Greenway who are physical with the opposition -- and several of us wish that there were more like them.  With the injuries, that bottom 6 is just way too soft.

I am still trying to figure out where the scoring went.

As you can see, we have some set of problems from the make-up of the team from the GM to the coaching of the team to the players 

Agree with a lot here.

As for the where the Scoring went...the Sabres are almost 1/3 of the way through the season now

-Thompson had 47 last year. This year he is on 'pace' (due to injuries and missed games) for about 20.

-Cozens last year had 31. This year he is on the pace for about 15

Skinner and Tuch are giving you the same production they did last year. Peterka is pretty much swapping production with VO.

 

Quite simply, Thompson being hurt and Cozens not producing is where most of last year's offense has gone.

Thompson needs to get back and be healthy. Cozens is not a good player in any aspect of the game right now, he needs to be better all over. That will solve 'most' of where the offense went.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by mjd1001