GDT: Sabres @ Rangers - November 27, 2023 - 7:00PM, MSG-B/ESPN+📺 WGR📻

[mjd1001]

On 11/28/2023 at 1:44 PM, Big Guava said:

I guess it wouldn't be surprising...he is still only 24 which is young for a goalie in many ways...still a few years off from his prime even.

When Ulmark was 25, I beleive he had only spent very small stints with the Sabres at that point, playing 26 games over 3 seasons with a losing record (although a losing record on a pretty bad team).  Goalies can, and mostly DO take time.

Edited November 30, 2023 by mjd1001

[steveoat87]

I live on Long Island and watched the MSG feed.  All their analysts chalked it up to a bad night for the Rangers.  Maybe, but the way the Sabres were playing, they could have beaten the vast majority of teams.

[Doohicksie]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

*Had* we acquired a competent vet back up in the last couple years

But that's the thing:  goalies can be very mercurial.  You pick up a "competent veteran backup" who's been good the last several years, and he could drop off.  Or you take a guy you think might be peaking and he doesn't quite get there.  Or you bring a guy in who's been a stud and suddenly he doesn't have it anymore.  You have to build the rest of the team to be the best they can be and hope that either one of the goalies in your system emerges or you can bring in outside help when you need it.  Or in some cases, both.

[Doohicksie]

13 minutes ago, steveoat87 said:

chalked it up to a bad night for the Rangers.

That's kind of what sports announcers do.  They focus on their home team.  It would be unnatural really for them to say a sub-.500 team was better than their 1st-in-the-NHL team.

[steveoath]

Just caught up. I thought, in general, the nyr guys were very complimentary to the sabres. Only thing that bugged me was constantly calling UPL “pekka-luukkonen”. 

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

But that's the thing:  goalies can be very mercurial.  You pick up a "competent veteran backup" who's been good the last several years, and he could drop off.  Or you take a guy you think might be peaking and he doesn't quite get there.  Or you bring a guy in who's been a stud and suddenly he doesn't have it anymore.  You have to build the rest of the team to be the best they can be and hope that either one of the goalies in your system emerges or you can bring in outside help when you need it.  Or in some cases, both.

I meant that he didn’t add any coming into this year. I just added “last couple” so I didn’t have to deal with the “but who even was there?!” excuse, like it matters when it’s been since he took over that he hasn’t adequately addressed the position

i don’t believe in the “goalies can be unpredictable thus a GM isn’t required to field competent goaltending” farce narrative 

[Doohicksie]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I meant that he didn’t add any coming into this year. I just added “last couple” so I didn’t have to deal with the “but who even was there?!” excuse, like it matters when it’s been since he took over that he hasn’t adequately addressed the position

i don’t believe in the “goalies can be unpredictable thus a GM isn’t required to field competent goaltending” farce narrative 

And yet we have UPL who's... what?  ~10th in the league?  Were there better options available?

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

i don’t believe in the “goalies can be unpredictable thus a GM isn’t required to field competent goaltending” farce narrative 

Correct.  That's why teams with competent management lock up their good goalies.  What a crazy idea.

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

And yet we have UPL who's... what?  ~10th in the league?  Were there better options available?

He’s amendable to the results of the position since he took over: that’s the job 

results have been poor. Once the results are good, Adams will have done a good job 

that’s it 

I haven’t altered my stance on this, and I won’t. The results are what matters 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

And yet we have UPL who's... what?  ~10th in the league?  Were there better options available?

This is a fair statement given how UPL has played of late.  He has 4 straight starts (plus a replacement appearance) with a .923 save % or better.  

He had a similar run last year in starts 8-11 with no start under a .903 save % and another very good run in starts 15-20 with a record of 4-1-1 and only one start under 900 and that was only an 893.  He was 13-5-2 in his 1st 20 starts last year with a 900 save % or better in 11 of those games.  Then the wheels came off.  In his next 13 starts, he had only 3 900 or better games and was 4-7-2.

Edited November 28, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

That's kind of what sports announcers do.  They focus on their home team.  It would be unnatural really for them to say a sub-.500 team was better than their 1st-in-the-NHL team.

100% agree.  Fans do it also big time.  It seems that 9 times out of ten when the Sabres or Bills win a big game, its because of how good they are, how well they played.

When they lose a game, its 'the coach needs to go' or now what changes have to be made.

Rarely, if ever, is the outcome of a game simply you were that good or that bad.  It is equally how the other team was, how 'good' or 'bad' they are.

[Doohicksie]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He’s amendable to the results of the position since he took over: that’s the job 

results have been poor. Once the results are good, Adams will have done a good job 

that’s it 

I haven’t altered my stance on this, and I won’t. The results are what matters 

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Our overall goaltending output is *still* below average this season. Was there a guy available better than the output our other 2 are currently contributing? Absolutely 

I don’t fall victim to arguments where the other poster can claim “hindsight”. I don’t allow that to happen. I talked all offseason long about the necessity of having not just a capable starter but a capable back up. We still don’t have that. My argument has not changed. I’m not throwing a parade because in a GM’s 4th year he’s finally found a way (contrary to how HE thought he would) to field slightly below average goaltending 

The standards are so, so low here, all of the time. And twice on Sundays.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Thorny

Agreed.  There are 60 games left in the season. Do we really trust UPL to give us quality starts in 40 of them?  Do we trust anyone else with the other 20 or with the ability to step up and be the starter if UPL gets hurt or goes into the tank like he did last season after 20 games? 

If UPL manages to play at or near this elite level for the remainder of the season, it would be the most shocking development in the NHL this season given his substandard NHL and AHL track record.  

Frankly, our moribund franchise deserves a little luck. 

[shrader]

5 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

It wasn't much but it was a penalty. Not a smart play by Benson.

Except the ref called him for cross checking the player who fell onto the ice. Since that never actually happened, it was in fact, not a penalty. 

[shrader]

31 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

You don't know that.  He did, in fact, crosscheck another player.  He doesn't have to knock him over for it to be a penalty.

I do know that. It was blatantly obvious. No ref is going to willingly call a penalty for tickling. 

[Big Guava]

9 hours ago, steveoat87 said:

I live on Long Island and watched the MSG feed.  All their analysts chalked it up to a bad night for the Rangers.  Maybe, but the way the Sabres were playing, they could have beaten the vast majority of teams.

Sabres are one of the faster teams in the league and when they want to they can make life very miserable for teams all over the ice 

[Big Guava]

5 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

100% agree.  Fans do it also big time.  It seems that 9 times out of ten when the Sabres or Bills win a big game, its because of how good they are, how well they played.

When they lose a game, its 'the coach needs to go' or now what changes have to be made.

Rarely, if ever, is the outcome of a game simply you were that good or that bad.  It is equally how the other team was, how 'good' or 'bad' they are.

Well, with the Bills we have seen over a long period of time they really ARE that good.

It's been over 2 years since they have lost a game in the regular season by more than 6 points. The last one was against Indianapolis in early November of 2021. That's absurd. 

Typically it takes the Bills to do a bunch of stupid things, turn the ball over a lot, miss a bunch of easy plays and even then it usually takes a last second effort for the other team to win.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Big Guava

[Doohicksie]

14 hours ago, SwampD said:

He made a play at the point where passed the puck to himself around a guy, I think off the boards,… wtf?! Pretty amazing. As soon as my 48 hour blackout is over, I want to rewatch that to see if I am remembering that correctly.

That was with 6:26 left in the first.

[Scottysabres]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:28 PM, Derrico said:

Agreed.  Their record feels worse because of the high expectations but they haven’t yet dug themselves an insurmountable hole.  

For as much grief as I spew on Granato, there is truth in your comment here. I still feel like I should despise the coaching and, to an extent, the management. Why? I don't even know myself, maybe higher expectations is the answer or maybe I picked a bad season to really shine with grumpy old man syndrome. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

For as much grief as I spew on Granato, there is truth in your comment here. I still feel like I should despise the coaching and, to an extent, the management. Why? I don't even know myself, maybe higher expectations is the answer or maybe I picked a bad season to really shine with grumpy old man syndrome. 

Bills spitting the bit at the same time the Sabres are treading water just outside of where they need to be and slowly losing runway to get there doesn't help to lighten the mood around here.

[MattPie]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:16 PM, Doohickie said:

But that's the thing:  goalies can be very mercurial.  You pick up a "competent veteran backup" who's been good the last several years, and he could drop off.  Or you take a guy you think might be peaking and he doesn't quite get there.  Or you bring a guy in who's been a stud and suddenly he doesn't have it anymore.  You have to build the rest of the team to be the best they can be and hope that either one of the goalies in your system emerges or you can bring in outside help when you need it.  Or in some cases, both.

I keep coming back to the best analysis I remember seeing anywhere posted here back when Ryan Miller flamed out after the trade to St Louis. We tend to think of goalies as "the same" other than skill, but they have their own styles that mesh better with some styles of D. I think back then, the idea was Miller liked to play towards the top of the crease. The Sabres worked with that by having the D low to make sure forwards down by the goal line were tied up, since Miller would be leaving angle shots kinda open. The Blues played with the D further up, so Miller kept getting burned by passes to those low forwards. (I may have completely botched that)

Anyway, if some decent guy comes in but his style doesn't mesh with the way the Sabres play D, it'll get ugly even if the Sabres aren't objectively bad. I'd say for UPL not being the quickest to get across and set, the Sabres need to focus on typing up low forwards and slowing down the cross-ice pass. UPL seems OK (lately) at stopping shots as long as he doesn't hunch down, and he's big.

Interestingly, Levi might be the opposite since he's a smaller, quick goalie. The Sabres may need to do more to pressure the initial shooter and allow Levi's athleticism cover cross-ice passes by moving quickly to follow the play.

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, MattPie said:

Anyway, if some decent guy comes in but his style doesn't mesh with the way the Sabres play D, it'll get ugly even if the Sabres aren't objectively bad.

I suspect that UPL meshes with the style the Sabres are playing right now, while Levi actually doesn't, and that's the difference.  Anyway, let Levi get reps in the AHL and we'll see what develops.