It Is Time: Fire the GM, the Coaching Staff, get some experience in here. Fans deserve better!!!

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IF they miss the playoffs this year and next Adams should be gone.  (Realize, rereading it that wasn't as clear as it should've been.)

EXPECT he'd get to come back after 2 playoff misses because Granato will be the sacrificial lamb after fail #2.

Thanks for clarifying (this part isn’t snark. I think that serves as illumination for what’s coming)

Fair enough. So, missing the playoffs for his first half-decade straight in office represents mulligan number 1. If he can’t make it after a full decade, I think we’d have to think of canning him 

[Mango]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Adams should get 1 additional fail IF they miss the playoffs this year.

Considering Granato didn't make any adjustments to his staff this past off-season even though STs were a joke last year, he should not get an additional fail IF they miss the playoffs this year.

But fully expect that Granato gets 1 more fail and Adams gets 2.

And, can fully understand the sentiment that Adams should be gone with a miss this year because he made the margin for error much smaller than it needed to be by not making any moves at the F rank nor the G rank.  (Figuring the moves that were made at the end of the year would be enough for this year, even after Quinn's training injury.)

 

And, with all that said, still believe this team winds up ~103 and in the playoffs.  Sometime around the flip of the calendar, this team will find another gear.  The D pairings will be settling in, the team should be used to doing what they're getting asked in the D zone, the goalies will fully understand what they're up against, and a couple of key pieces missing from the top 6 should be back.

I think we should let Adams decide what to do. And if his plan is to roll it back again then tell him to pack his bags. 

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but part of the issue with the team is that we just keep rolling it all back. Instead of forcing the guy in charge to make moves, give him the freedom to fail. 

I am not putting this entire situation on Adams. Granato gets some blame too. But I am questioning how capable he is in pivoting from his vision, and pivoting well. We didn’t add enough this offseason. He didn’t force this team to change special teams coaches this last offseason. This is all by design. I’m not sure that firing Granato wouldn’t just be performative. And if it is, then just go ahead and have the GM pack up too. 

[Carmel Corn]

The discussion on GMKA should maybe have it's own thread.....meanwhile back to Granato, I cannot help but question the collective knowledge of our coaching staff.  IMHO - the team is too often not ready to play at the drop of the opening puck.  There are ongoing (multi year) issues with the PP, faceoffs and a general willingness to go to the hard spots vs. playing a soft perimeter game.  I don't think GMKA is telling him what to do on the ice.  The 11-7 lineup is the icing on the cake....I'd like to see the Sabres move on from DG.

[FrenchConnection44]

I think Granato should be gone at the end of the year if they are in the bottom 10 (as they are right now). I’m for Adams staying on at least another year (maybe 2) but needs to make a great coaching decision and see some of the young players he’s drafted start to pan out. 

However, if they are where they are come January and then go on a big negative streak, say losing 8-10 in a row or 13 out of 15, as they have been prone to do every year, and find themselves in the bottom 5 or 6, I think the pressure will be on to fire Granato. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

The discussion on GMKA should maybe have it's own thread.....meanwhile back to Granato, I cannot help but question the collective knowledge of our coaching staff.  IMHO - the team is too often not ready to play at the drop of the opening puck.  There are ongoing (multi year) issues with the PP, faceoffs and a general willingness to go to the hard spots vs. playing a soft perimeter game.  I don't think GMKA is telling him what to do on the ice.  The 11-7 lineup is the icing on the cake....I'd like to see the Sabres move on from DG.

To the bolded, that is a definite blackmark on the coaching staff.  The team too often gives up a goal in the 1st 2-3 shifts which sets everyone onto their heels for large parts of the 1st period.  Especially considering how Granato doesn't get too concerned about line matching and how low keyed he and his staff seem to be, would like to see him "reward" the line that played best the previous game with the 1st shift of the game.  If you can't internally get that initial jump out of the gate, maybe make it a reward for excelling the most the previous game and hope that brings a bit of a jump to that initial shift.

Faceoffs will get better as the C's get older/more experienced.

PP - don't see any cure on the horizon.  And THAT's another failure on the coaching front.  (Personally, also expect the PK is going to continue trending downward unless the goaltending picks up as long as Thompson is out, because the PK relies on the length of the PKers to disrupt the other team's PP rather than being aggressive to disrupt the PP.  When they get more faith in the GT, the PK can get more aggressive.)

They DO go to the net, but typically can't get the puck there as well once somebody without the puck is there.  And when they drive the puck to the net, there often isn't support.  (They are not good at collecting rebound opportunities.)  Expect that will improve as the lines get more settled and players know better what their linemates are going to do.

[zow2]

Honestly, I think it's time for a coaching change. Granato was good for the turnaround. But to get to the next level, they need a better coach.

Edited November 23, 2023 by zow2

[Goldseatsaud]

They lose games like the Bills

[KC Scouts]

Fire Granato and the assistants......Enough already..... 

[Porous Five Hole]

6 minutes ago, KC Scouts said:

Fire Granato and the assistants......Enough already..... 

please outline the rationale. I want to talk about this. 

[...]

Just now, Porous Five Hole said:

please outline the rationale. I want to talk about this. 

I think the 9 pages of litigation here qualify as outlining the rationale.

[Porous Five Hole]

1 minute ago, ... said:

I think the 9 pages of litigation here qualify as outlining the rationale.

I mean, maybe? Reading through the thread is a whole lot of anger at the Sabres not being higher up in the standings. What specifically can the head coach be blamed for? The reason we lost tonight was not 11F & 7D. Is Meatballs to blame for Girgs not tying up his man on the game tying goal and Cozens not hustling back on the GWG? Genuinely curious.  

[Zamboni]

10 minutes ago, KC Scouts said:

Fire Granato and the assistants......Enough already..... 

Apparently every loss it needs to be repeated…  With the exception of a prolonged stretch of losses, DG isn’t getting fired this season most likely. And neither is KA. I know this upsets many.

 

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I mean, maybe? Reading through the thread is a whole lot of anger at the Sabres not being higher up in the standings. What specifically can the head coach be blamed for? The reason we lost tonight was not 11F & 7D. Is Meatballs to blame for Girgs not tying up his man on the game tying goal and Cozens not hustling back on the GWG? Genuinely curious.  

I struggle a lot with this too

people may or may not notice but considering I post quite a bit..I almost never talk about Granato. I find it hard to judge and analyze what a coach even *does*, never mind construct a competent analysis on whether they are doing it well or not. It’s so much easier to look at the GM. In the end you notice a coach most when they take over a new team and the team goes on a run. A lot of that could just be new team spark or whatever

I think you win and lose based on the guys you have on the team and that’s down to the GM. I’m sure there are inns and outs that better articulate what a coach facilitates I’m just not well versed enough to do it. So I just avoid it. 

[KC Scouts]

8 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I mean, maybe? Reading through the thread is a whole lot of anger at the Sabres not being higher up in the standings. What specifically can the head coach be blamed for? The reason we lost tonight was not 11F & 7D. Is Meatballs to blame for Girgs not tying up his man on the game tying goal and Cozens not hustling back on the GWG? Genuinely curious.  

YES!!!!!!!!!....Ultimately, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE IF YOU ARE THE COACH. It's why coaches get fired - the team loses games because the players don't do what they are supposed to. It is Granato's job to make sure it doesn't happen or else he gets fired. It's that simple, it really is.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, KC Scouts said:

YES!!!!!!!!!....Ultimately, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE IF YOU ARE THE COACH. It's why coaches get fired - the team loses games because the players don't do what they are supposed to. It is Granato's job to make sure it doesn't happen or else he gets fired. It's that simple, it really is.

I think in general players don’t do what they are supposed to do because..they can’t. I think effort levels over 82 games 23 guys 32 teams generally even out / law of averages. These guys aren’t “refusing” to be good enough or unwilling to try

the results are generally, at least mostly based on the aptitude assembled. It’s the person constructing the team that has the most input on whether a team succeeds or not 

[GoPuckYourself]

I try not to be a debbie downer but it's just so hard with this team unfortunately.

Both Adams and Granato should not be here if we miss the playoffs...

Adams is going into his 5th year, still no veteran goalie, still no legit faceoff guy, re-signing of Girgensons/Okposo, Not doing nearly enough at the deadline last season.

Granato is going into year 4.... We're still god awful at faceoffs, the power play looks lost on most nights, our defense looks lost on most nights, the players don't play at a high enough compete level as their talent level suggests and to me that's on the coach to bring that out of them, he's a solid developmental coach but not nearly good enough to get us a cup imo.

[Porous Five Hole]

6 minutes ago, KC Scouts said:

YES!!!!!!!!!....Ultimately, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE IF YOU ARE THE COACH. It's why coaches get fired - the team loses games because the players don't do what they are supposed to. It is Granato's job to make sure it doesn't happen or else he gets fired. It's that simple, it really is.

I want to have a meaningful conversation about this. My reaction to what you said is if we are firing coaches for what I outlined and you agreed, that’s kind of silly.
Is a different guy behind the bench going to make Girgs and Cozens be better in those specific moments? I don’t believe so.  If someone wants blood/fall guy, then sure.  Bosses are ultimately responsible for their direct reports. But the impactful moments of the last min of the third and OT don’t fall on the coach to me.

[Porous Five Hole]

1 minute ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I try not to be a debbie downer but it's just so hard with this team unfortunately.

Both Adams and Granato should not be here if we miss the playoffs...

Adams is going into his 5th year, still no veteran goalie, still no legit faceoff guy, re-signing of Girgensons/Okposo, Not doing nearly enough at the deadline last season.

Granato is going into year 4.... We're still god awful at faceoffs, the power play looks lost on most nights, our defense looks lost on most nights, the players don't play at a high enough compete level as their talent level suggests and to me that's on the coach to bring that out of them, he's a solid developmental coach but not nearly good enough to get us a cup imo.

This is a comment I can get behind. With that said, some clarifications:

GMKA was hired in June 2020, so he’s only been around for three seasons leading up to this year.  
Granato was hired in interim in March 2021. Due to the Krueger effect and due to how much time left in the season (a few weeks at most), I’m willing to absolve the rest of 2021 from his record. That means he’s had 2+ years on a team that everyone knew was in another rebuild (Nov 2021 was the Eichel trade/reset). So he has been handed the youngest team in the league in back to back years.  But that’s two years and not four years as you said.  

To your specifics (thank you), we suck at face offs. Is that a coaching issue or an issue with drafting and development?  Personally, I don’t hold this against the head coach.  
 

The PP. This can potentially be pinned on coaching, but the Sabres were top five last year. It has only been six weeks and it’s a long season. It’s too early to pin this on coaching, and oh by the way…the PK has dramatically improved from last year. That should be taken into account.

Compete level of defenders? Sounds like roster construction over coaching.  Compete level forwards? My first instinct is to point out that the GM iced the youngest team in the league (again). Can you really tie this to coaching? Perhaps, but I’m not willing to assume DG is only a developmental coach because he has been given a bunch of guys who legally can’t drink and aren’t succeeding against veteran teams. 
 

Happy Thanksgiving! 🦃🦃🦃 

 

[Zamboni]

11 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

This is a comment I can get behind. With that said, some clarifications:

GMKA was hired in June 2020, so he’s only been around for three seasons leading up to this year.  
Granato was hired in interim in March 2021. Due to the Krueger effect and due to how much time left in the season (a few weeks at most), I’m willing to absolve the rest of 2021 from his record. That means he’s had 2+ years on a team that everyone knew was in another rebuild (Nov 2021 was the Eichel trade/reset). So he has been handed the youngest team in the league in back to back years.  But that’s two years and not four years as you said.  

To your specifics (thank you), we suck at face offs. Is that a coaching issue or an issue with drafting and development?  Personally, I don’t hold this against the head coach.  
 

The PP. This can potentially be pinned on coaching, but the Sabres were top five last year. It has only been six weeks and it’s a long season. It’s too early to pin this on coaching, and oh by the way…the PK has dramatically improved from last year. That should be taken into account.

Compete level of defenders? Sounds like roster construction over coaching.  Compete level forwards? My first instinct is to point out that the GM iced the youngest team in the league (again). Can you really tie this to coaching? Perhaps, but I’m not willing to assume DG is only a developmental coach because he has been given a bunch of guys who legally can’t drink and aren’t succeeding against veteran teams. 
 

Happy Thanksgiving! 🦃🦃🦃 

 

Well said. I agree with a lot of what you said. 
So, what exactly do you blame DG for? What do you lay directly at the feet of DG only? 

[Porous Five Hole]

20 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Well said. I agree with a lot of what you said. 
So, what exactly do you blame DG for? What do you lay directly at the feet of DG only? 

To be honest, I think the blame for this slow start should be targeted toward roster construction (i.e.the GM). It was criminal to set the expectation of the playoffs given the youngest team in the league (youngest team in the league for the second season in a row BTW—and no one in the crease had 50 GP life to date). The coach only works with what he’s been given. Either the fanbase needs to reset expectations to align with the GM’s timeline of success—or hold the GM accountable.  To me, the issues of this team are not within the coaches control.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Porous Five Hole said:

To be honest, I think the blame for this slow start should be targeted toward roster construction (i.e.the GM). It was criminal to set the expectation of the playoffs given the youngest team in the league (youngest team in the league for the second season in a row BTW—and no one in the crease had 50 GP life to date). The coach only works with what he’s been given. Either the fanbase needs to reset expectations to align with the GM’s timeline of success—or hold the GM accountable.  To me, the issues of this team are not within the coaches control.

No, it was criminal to ice the youngest team in the league when the expectation is playoffs 

[Porous Five Hole]

Just now, Thorny said:

No, it was criminal to ice the youngest team in the league when the expectation is playoffs 

So we agree. 🍻

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

So we agree. 🍻

I wouldn’t use a term as extreme as criminal and it’s too early to pass judgment but, if we do miss, yes, being a young team doesn’t count as an excuse 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

Does the team have a 4 game win streak in them? That gets their pace over 82 to 93 and right in mix for playoffs. It’s certainly do able. I guess the issue with that is a 4 game streak means it’s not a 5 gamer so the next game is a necessitated loss. So a 4 game streak really has us on an 89 point pace haha. But still, a short string and things can change quickly. Really, they’ll need a couple streaks, when you think about the math 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

28 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, it was criminal to ice the youngest team in the league when the expectation is playoffs 

That really doesn’t make sense, we weren’t going to exactly get older on average even with a vet goalie and Levi being in Rochester. If Quinn’s healthy we likely would have dealt Olofsson and used another younger player, like Rousek, in that roster spot. 

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Does the team have a 4 game win streak in them? That gets their pace over 82 to 93 and right in mix for playoffs. It’s certainly do able. I guess the issue with that is a 4 game streak means it’s not a 5 gamer so the next game is a necessitated loss. So a 4 game streak really has us on an 89 point pace haha. But still, a short string and things can change quickly. Really, they’ll need a couple streaks, when you think about the math 

Certainly, they just need to settle in more. We aren’t sinking; we are merely treading water presently