GDT: Sabres @ Penguins - Nov 11, 2023 - 7:30pm, MSG/ESPN+📺WGR📻

[Gatorman0519]

8 hours ago, SDS said:

The phrase you’re looking for is “could have/could’ve,” not “could of.”

https://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-pick-up-grammar-mistakes-jerks-scientists-find

[Pimlach]

We are rehashing some of the most common off-season comments and concerns.   Here is a list of them: 

1.  The new core needs more veteran help, just like the old core did.  (Eichel, Reinhart)

2  Young team - we are about the same average age as last year because we added 18-20 year olds and lost a 41 year old. 
3.  Can you install defense into a system two years after you start? 
4.  Goaltending not good enough 

5.  Not enough grit

6.  Coaching staff not good enough. 
7.  Arena and game day experience not good enough. Fans gone, etc  

Whenever we lose a game, these are the themes.  They are valid too.  

On thing for certain is we aren’t surprising anyone.  Teams are ready and aware of who to shut down and how to shut them down.

What I can see is that with Tuch out, Quinn out, and Cozens in limbo we are carrying some forwards every night that don’t belong in the NHL -  some are too young, some are not good enough.  
 

I prefer to complain after the game rather than after the first period of a 1-0 game.   See items 1 and 2 above.  Last night we played 11 forwards and with Tuch out we could not come up with 2 good lines.  This is part of the inconsistency we see.  It was a curious decision given how hard it was to beat Minnesota’s back up the night before.  
 

My input is to send the kids down, Savoie gone, Benson will be next.  Krebs needs the AHL right now but won’t clear waivers.  VO is taking up space.   Try to make a move or two to improve the middle and bottom 6 if playoffs is the goal.  

 On to the next game.   This team is still a work in progress.  

[Slack_in_MA]

10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I don't care which metrics say what, either - Owen Power is completely overwhelmed with simple tasks. He is struggling badly with the speed of the game. This is not a sweeping condemnation - I would expect nothing less. Hedman looked worse at his age. I think he's going to have a very similar career to Victor. But right now I can't escape what I'm seeing - a player who has to think a split second too long so that the passing lane closes, the shooting lane closes, the forechecker can engage and turn possession into a 50-50 battle. This is happening 2/3rds of the times he touches the puck. It's a significant contributor to the fact that our transition offense has been bone-dry this year compared to last. 

My IRL friends that have picked up the Sabres in recent years text me every day telling me how we should try putting Savoie or Kulich in the lineup, giving more responsibility to Benson, stuff like that. Completely brainwashed - look at Casey and Tage (and Dahlin to an extent). We need a roster full of players who are as established as these two, and more. These two had to grind for half a decade to get to this point. The road ahead of Power, Benson, Savoie, Kulich, to get to this degree of usefulness (where they are no longer seeing things for the first time, have man-strength, and have a bank of experience they can refer to whenever anything comes up), is LONG. It may take 5+ years for all of them to be a genuine HELP to the Sabres in the way that this Sabres team needs - the way Tuch helps them, the way Drury or Numminen helped them years ago. And Quinn, JJP, Cozens aren't much further down the path. It's great to have an organization with good players at all ages/levels of development like this, but not when the roster is so unbalanced towards inexperience. If I hear the words "blocking a prospect" one more time I'm going to blow a gasket. Nobody is blocking these guys, and you could safely supplement this team with real help for entire contracts before these kids are 1.) capable of leaving the organization and 2.) capable of contributing to a playoff run in a meaningful way. 

If you wait for the young names to get to where Tage, Dahlin and Casey are right now, you aren't going anywhere ever, because they become the disgruntled Eichels/Reinharts long before the next version of Tage/Casey/Dahlin themselves are ready to be good. The cycle is literally identical and Kevyn needs to start prioritizing real balance yesterday. The team is walking on the edge of a cliff with this *****. You can't keep pretending to be a real team without causing damage that will escalate exponentially just like last time

This is exactly my concern.

[Slack_in_MA]

9 hours ago, Zamboni said:

A very young team that is inconsistent. Just like other young teams before them. And other young teams after them. Because consistency has been a problem with most young teams in every sport. As they gain more experience they gain more consistency. at least that’s how I see it.

I admire your optimism. I really do. But how long are you personally willing to wait for the young team to not be young anymore? Honest question.

[Zamboni]

1 minute ago, Slack_in_MA said:

I admire your optimism. I really do. But how long are you personally willing to wait for the young team to not be young anymore? Honest question.

I am stating why the inconsistency between them looking good one game, and looking terrible another game. That’s all I was stating.

And you asked me about how long I am willing to wait? What do you mean by that question?

willing to wait? as in there is a time where I’m no longer willing to wait? As in there’s a time that I’m no longer going to wait and will not like the Sabres anymore? What do you mean by… willing to wait?

and lastly… It’s not that I look optimistic… It’s that I don’t let a sport get me so absolutely furious where I’m on the verge of having a brain aneurysm. It’s just not worth it to me. So I tend to have the losses roll off my back most nights. Not every night. And I tend to be happy with the wins, but not get too fantasyland high with wins either.

I hope that sort of answers it 👍🏼

[Slack_in_MA]

7 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I am stating why the inconsistency between them looking good one game, and looking terrible another game. That’s all I was stating.

And you asked me about how long I am willing to wait? What do you mean by that question?

willing to wait? as in there is a time where I’m no longer willing to wait? As in there’s a time that I’m no longer going to wait and will not like the Sabres anymore? What do you mean by… willing to wait?

and lastly… It’s not that I look optimistic… It’s that I don’t let a sport get me so absolutely furious where I’m on the verge of having a brain aneurysm. It’s just not worth it to me. So I tend to have the losses roll off my back most nights. Not every night. And I tend to be happy with the wins, but not get too fantasyland high with wins either.

I hope that sort of answers it 👍🏼

By “willing to wait” I mean how much longer do you give the organization to put a playoff contending team on the ice before you say “this strategy isn’t working, some significant changes are needed”? 
 

After 50+ years of fandom and frustration, I too let the losses roll off my back pretty quickly.

I think all most of us are really looking for is progress and unfortunately it’s not evident yet this season. To me anyway.

Go Sabres!

[Zamboni]

21 minutes ago, Slack_in_MA said:

By “willing to wait” I mean how much longer do you give the organization to put a playoff contending team on the ice before you say “this strategy isn’t working, some significant changes are needed”? 
 

After 50+ years of fandom and frustration, I too let the losses roll off my back pretty quickly.

I think all most of us are really looking for is progress and unfortunately it’s not evident yet this season. To me anyway.

Go Sabres!

I look at it this way… Nothing is working… Until it works. 😂

A team is never set. A team is always interchanging players every off-season and often during the season. So what you may describe as “significant changes“ might be a different definition for another fan. Swapping out one player for another player, to me isn’t significant change. Swapping out a head coach for another head coach, to me isn’t significant change. Changing out nearly half the roster like they did in 2018, 2019, 2020. That to me is significant change. again everyone has a different definition of what significant change means to them.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Zamboni

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I don't care which metrics say what, either - Owen Power is completely overwhelmed with simple tasks. He is struggling badly with the speed of the game. This is not a sweeping condemnation - I would expect nothing less. Hedman looked worse at his age. I think he's going to have a very similar career to Victor. But right now I can't escape what I'm seeing - a player who has to think a split second too long so that the passing lane closes, the shooting lane closes, the forechecker can engage and turn possession into a 50-50 battle. This is happening 2/3rds of the times he touches the puck. It's a significant contributor to the fact that our transition offense has been bone-dry this year compared to last. 

My IRL friends that have picked up the Sabres in recent years text me every day telling me how we should try putting Savoie or Kulich in the lineup, giving more responsibility to Benson, stuff like that. Completely brainwashed - look at Casey and Tage (and Dahlin to an extent). We need a roster full of players who are as established as these two, and more. These two had to grind for half a decade to get to this point. The road ahead of Power, Benson, Savoie, Kulich, to get to this degree of usefulness (where they are no longer seeing things for the first time, have man-strength, and have a bank of experience they can refer to whenever anything comes up), is LONG. It may take 5+ years for all of them to be a genuine HELP to the Sabres in the way that this Sabres team needs - the way Tuch helps them, the way Drury or Numminen helped them years ago. And Quinn, JJP, Cozens aren't much further down the path. It's great to have an organization with good players at all ages/levels of development like this, but not when the roster is so unbalanced towards inexperience. If I hear the words "blocking a prospect" one more time I'm going to blow a gasket. Nobody is blocking these guys, and you could safely supplement this team with real help for entire contracts before these kids are 1.) capable of leaving the organization and 2.) capable of contributing to a playoff run in a meaningful way. 

If you wait for the young names to get to where Tage, Dahlin and Casey are right now, you aren't going anywhere ever, because they become the disgruntled Eichels/Reinharts long before the next version of Tage/Casey/Dahlin themselves are ready to be good. The cycle is literally identical and Kevyn needs to start prioritizing real balance yesterday. The team is walking on the edge of a cliff with this *****. You can't keep pretending to be a real team without causing damage that will escalate exponentially just like last time

We covered your paragraph 2 and 3 at length over the off season.  The question came up “Did Adams do enough” and I basically voiced the concern in paragraph 3 to a tee.  Bringing in a vet middle 6 to replace Quinn would look smart right now.  Rebuilding the 4th line would look better too.  Apparently he tried to do more, he said he tried for Pesce, a forward, and others.  Either Players in their prime still do not want to come here or Adams does not want to pay or block or give up prospects?   The premise that this rebuild could fail because the Core is not supported is real and it happened once before.  
 

As for paragraph 1,  your thoughts on Power are not what I see.  I don’t see “struggling badly”.  I just don’t.  He makes some mistakes, he hesitates to think at times, he plays a lot of minutes (too much probably), but he also does a lot of good.  Tough position to play at 20-21.  Remember Dahlin at that age?  Remember the “is Dahlin Dumb” thread?   Power is nowhere near that level of inconsistent and hopefully he never gets that scrambled in the head from lack of support.  You struck me as an analyst of data and now you are going against the data.  When you consider why the analytics might be wrong, you should also consider why they are correct as well.   This team has bigger problems to solve than Owen Power. 

[OverPowerYou]

Does anyone else watch just the 3rd periods of these games now? I can’t commit myself to 2.5 hrs of disappointment anymore. 

[Randall Flagg]

10 hours ago, Zamboni said:

My God I hate knee-jerk emotional and usually illogical rantings after losses. Just as much as I hate knee-jerk emotional usually illogical rantings after wins. 

Thank you to those who keep it even tempered with fair analysis.
 

It sucks they lost… I got over it 10 minutes after it happened. Onto the next game.

And my god, I hate garbage, perpetual, incessant tone policing from a guy who has no ***** clue how to analyze a hockey team and is constantly nagging at people who wind up objectively correct year after year. Seven years ago on this forum I was giving 75 point predictions for the season while people like you nagged me and complained how negative I was while predicting a playoff birth. You are always wrong. We are not the problem, we are right. Take my post and break it down and tell me what is wrong, because I promise I am 10x better than you at watching hockey. Can you create one post in your entire life that isn't whining about what fans post, poorly generalizing and completely missing their point, and cracking horrible jokes with stupid laugh emojis? Holy ***** I thought SDS was the worst poster here but congrats, it's you by a mile. 

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

We covered your paragraph 2 and 3 at length over the off season.  The question came up “Did Adams do enough” and I basically voiced the concern in paragraph 3 to a tee.  Bringing in a vet middle 6 to replace Quinn would look smart right now.  Rebuilding the 4th line would look better too.  Apparently he tried to do more, he said he tried for Pesce, a forward, and others.  Either Players in their prime still do not want to come here or Adams does not want to pay or block or give up prospects?   The premise that this rebuild could fail because the Core is not supported is real and it happened once before.  
 

As for paragraph 1,  your thoughts on Power are not what I see.  I don’t see “struggling badly”.  I just don’t.  He makes some mistakes, he hesitates to think at times, he plays a lot of minutes (too much probably), but he also does a lot of good.  Tough position to play at 20-21.  Remember Dahlin at that age?  Remember the “is Dahlin Dumb” thread?   Power is nowhere near that level of inconsistent and hopefully he never gets that scrambled in the head from lack of support.  You struck me as an analyst of data and now you are going against the data.  When you consider why the analytics might be wrong, you should also consider why they are correct as well.   This team has bigger problems to solve than Owen Power. 

I wish I had time/access to film. It's not always obvious in the flow of play, he doesn't make flagrant gaffs like Rasmus did. It's little things where you can say "well he was swallowed up by the forecheck and had no outlets," but he did. He didn't put the trigger. Like you say and like I said, it's all part of being a young defenseman, but it's hurting the team more than anyone will admit and more than the stats can track. 

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

3 rosters moves should occur. 

 

At the current rate this should be complete by 2025 then

[pastajoe]

12 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

Does anyone else watch just the 3rd periods of these games now? I can’t commit myself to 2.5 hrs of disappointment anymore. 

I record the games and start watching about an hour after it starts so I can fast forward during commercials and between periods. If they get down a couple of goals I watch in fast speed and then go to regular if they actually do something good.

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, eman said:

To me the biggest difference between Montreal's rebuild and Buffalo's is behind the bench: Coach Martin St. Louis. Passionate and not afraid to send a message to his players. The guy was a real competitor on the ice and he brings it to the coaching.

LOL “brings it to the coaching”

St. Louis is a coaching experiment being that he’s a first timer walking in with no coaching experience. I am not envious of their bench.  
 

Also, no one who could speak French and was qualified wanted the job. 
I am not saying it can’t work out, but plucking a fiery former player is not a good coach hiring strategy.  

[Crusader1969]

The reality is that the Quinn injury has sent a ripple wave throughout the forward lines. 
actually, the inability for anyone to step up and fill his spot has been the issue 

the team was supposed to be a 3 scoring line team   Coming at the opponent line after line 

at the point what is the best 3rd line they could put out?  Take you pick of Rousek, Krebs, Joust , Biro and Olofsson to play wing with Cozens    No matter what the combination, it just isn’t good enough 

If they don’t want to end the season once again looking at the playoffs from the outside   GMKA needs to make a move to bolster the forward lines —- Lawson Crouse Get It Done
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Randall Flagg]

20 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And my god, I hate garbage, perpetual, incessant tone policing from a guy who has no ***** clue how to analyze a hockey team and is constantly nagging at people who wind up objectively correct year after year. Seven years ago on this forum I was giving 75 point predictions for the season while people like you nagged me and complained how negative I was while predicting a playoff birth. You are always wrong. We are not the problem, we are right. Take my post and break it down and tell me what is wrong, because I promise I am 10x better than you at watching hockey. Can you create one post in your entire life that isn't whining about what fans post, poorly generalizing and completely missing their point, and cracking horrible jokes with stupid laugh emojis? Holy ***** I thought SDS was the worst poster here but congrats, it's you by a mile. 

BTW don't worry this isn't mean, I'm pretty sure both of the posters mentioned have blocked me so they won't see it 

[Crusader1969]

17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wish I had time/access to film. It's not always obvious in the flow of play, he doesn't make flagrant gaffs like Rasmus did. It's little things where you can say "well he was swallowed up by the forecheck and had no outlets," but he did. He didn't put the trigger. Like you say and like I said, it's all part of being a young defenseman, but it's hurting the team more than anyone will admit and more than the stats can track. 

He hasn’t taken the big step we were hoping he would take but I do think you are exaggerating a little bit.   Especially if you dig into the analytics.    Just my 2 cents 

9 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

I record the games and start watching about an hour after it starts so I can fast forward during commercials and between periods. If they get down a couple of goals I watch in fast speed and then go to regular if they actually do something good.

That’s how a watched Fridays game and accidentally fast forwarded by the Skinner goal ‘ 😆😆😆

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

He hasn’t taken the big step we were hoping he would take but I do think you are exaggerating a little bit.   Especially if you dig into the analytics.    Just my 2 cents 

Again, analytics are cool but they cannot catch individual decision-making. He is a tick slow and more than a handful of times per game it causes the Sabres to go from a structured breakout with firm possession, to a 50/50 battle that he rarely wins. 

I still think he's an NHLer. I think if he was getting 16 mins per night on pairing three he would be smoother, fresher, more willing to trust his instincts. Maybe that's about to happen

[Taro T]

31 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Again, analytics are cool but they cannot catch individual decision-making. He is a tick slow and more than a handful of times per game it causes the Sabres to go from a structured breakout with firm possession, to a 50/50 battle that he rarely wins. 

I still think he's an NHLer. I think if he was getting 16 mins per night on pairing three he would be smoother, fresher, more willing to trust his instincts. Maybe that's about to happen

And with the D they currently have, would really like to see Samuelsson get paired with him for a bit because he's at a point where a stay at home vet would be beneficial.  E Johnson would be a great partner for him, but you are necessarily going to need to reduce his ice time to make that happen and you are going bounce them down to the 3rd pairing.  Which won't happen because then you're likely looking at Jokiharju and Clifton as the 2nd pair which is a true disaster waiting to happen and has already bitten them in the bippy in very limited usage.

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And with the D they currently have, would really like to see Samuelsson get paired with him for a bit because he's at a point where a stay at home vet would be beneficial.  E Johnson would be a great partner for him, but you are necessarily going to need to reduce his ice time to make that happen and you are going bounce them down to the 3rd pairing.  Which won't happen because then you're likely looking at Jokiharju and Clifton as the 2nd pair which is a true disaster waiting to happen and has already bitten them in the bippy in very limited usage.

Yeah, the team is sorely missing one bona-fide top 4 D that would make everything work better, and has one-too-many of the guys we need to limit TOI for, but who are otherwise fine. Although IMPO we are about to trade for Hanifin so. (no inside info, just being optimistic today) 

And even then for depth purposes I'd be loathe to trade one of the guys we probably should, Clifton/EJ/Joki being first off the bench is elite depth

[Slack_in_MA]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

I look at it this way… Nothing is working… Until it works. 😂

A team is never set. A team is always interchanging players every off-season and often during the season. So what you may describe as “significant changes“ might be a different definition for another fan. Swapping out one player for another player, to me isn’t significant change. Swapping out a head coach for another head coach, to me isn’t significant change. Changing out nearly half the roster like they did in 2018, 2019, 2020. That to me is significant change. again everyone has a different definition of what significant change means to them.

I agree that everyone has different definitions, perspectives and expectations. Which is why I find the occasional well-thought-out poll question to get a lot of perspectives in one shot.

For instance, your perspective that changing out a head coach isn’t a significant change is fascinating to me.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

Yeah, the team is sorely missing one bona-fide top 4 D that would make everything work better, and has one-too-many of the guys we need to limit TOI for, but who are otherwise fine. Although IMPO we are about to trade for Hanifin so. (no inside info, just being optimistic today) 

And even then for depth purposes I'd be loathe to trade one of the guys we probably should, Clifton/EJ/Joki being first off the bench is elite depth

Yes, Hannifan (or similar) would make a lot of issues get better.  And wouldn't that be something if Krebs were a key part of the package.  Wonder how many of the top 5 picks in the '15 draft he can eventually get traded for?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

21 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

6-1 penguins 

Tage a -6

Close, my friend.

+++++

What a terrible game all round.

Who's next ??

Oh, I see some dastardly on the horizon.

[Pimlach]

57 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wish I had time/access to film. It's not always obvious in the flow of play, he doesn't make flagrant gaffs like Rasmus did. It's little things where you can say "well he was swallowed up by the forecheck and had no outlets," but he did. He didn't put the trigger. Like you say and like I said, it's all part of being a young defenseman, but it's hurting the team more than anyone will admit and more than the stats can track. 

You can see him at times think/hesitate, and sometimes that is enough to foil a breakout or lose possession, but also many other times he just naturally does the right things - which I would assume is why his analytics are good overall.  

If we could have got a Pesce type of defensive defenseman to pair with him, or take some of his minutes that would have helped.  Adams could not beat the $4M x 6 years offer he got,  and/or the player may have had no interest in leaving a Cup contender to join a rebuild.   

Teams are playing us different this year.  There is more pressure on the puck and they are not giving us time and space to create.  This team has to learn to fight through it an earn it and get more dirty goals.  We need more dimensions to our game.   

[French Collection]

If there is a deal with Calgary, can you please get Coleman as a gritty vet that has playoff experience?

Oh, he also has a Cup ring.