Sabres Lines 11/6/23

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Cozens still out? Hmm, I wonder if he's going to come back gun shy. Not good. 

Those bottom lines are not good. 

He didn't after the earlier concussion.

[Drag0nDan]

19 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Patrick Kane has entered the chat😜

Can he enter the chat next year?  Once Oloffson, Girgs, Okposo, and Jost are likely all off the books?  

Might be nice to have a veteran winger on a line with a younger player.  Truly depends on how he looks after hip surgery though.  

Skinner-thompson-tuch

JJP-Cozens-quinn

Kane-Mitts-Savoie/Benson

Greenway-Savoie/Benson-Kulich

Even then you still have no space for Krebs and Rosen.  At the same time, a healthy kane is better than krebs and rosen at putting the puck in the back of the net.  You could start Savoie or Benson in the AHL potentially.  This lineup doesn't contain a defensive line or anything either.  

Dahlin, Muel, R.Johnson, Power, Clifton, Joker on defense.  I think there's space to upgrade here.. goalie is pretty obvious too.  

 

 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

He didn't after the earlier concussion.

idk, I wonder if he won't drop the gloves easily any more and although it's not a necessary thing in this league, we do need a few people who are ready to answer when needed. My hope was that Cozens would be that complete player guy. Now I'm not so sure. 

[TageMVP]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

idk, I wonder if he won't drop the gloves easily any more and although it's not a necessary thing in this league, we do need a few people who are ready to answer when needed. My hope was that Cozens would be that complete player guy. Now I'm not so sure. 

He lost a fight, that doesn't mean he can't be a complete player. I give him credit for dropping the gloves against a fighter anyway 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, TageMVP said:

He lost a fight, that doesn't mean he can't be a complete player. I give him credit for dropping the gloves against a fighter anyway 

True. I'm just saying IF this makes him more skittish he might not be all that but it's an IF. I've also not been impressed with his D play as a whole this year so far. He looked promising in this respect when we had him shut down McDavid and such last year but he's played softer and slower this year. It might change, but right now I'd say Mitts has leapt over him in terms of the center depth chart. 

[Doohicksie]

The Olofsson-Krebs-Rousek line was horrendous against Carolina.

Olofsson was the best among them and he sucked.

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, Doohickie said:

The Olofsson-Krebs-Rousek line was horrendous against Carolina.

Olofsson was the best among them and he sucked.

As I said in another thread, we are rapidly approaching a point where we need to seriously consider Krebs future and what that is. 

[Doohicksie]

43 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

As I said in another thread, we are rapidly approaching a point where we need to seriously consider Krebs future and what that is. 

I agree, but before condemning him I'd like to see him between wingers not named Olofsson.

[Pimlach]

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

idk, I wonder if he won't drop the gloves easily any more and although it's not a necessary thing in this league, we do need a few people who are ready to answer when needed. My hope was that Cozens would be that complete player guy. Now I'm not so sure. 

To the bold -  I think there is a lot of over reaction on the Cozens fight.  

Cozens is skill player.  He also has size and grit.  Prior to Hathaway, he had 4 fights in the NHL and he handled himself fine in every one of them.  This time he tangled with the wrong guy.  Hathaway is a skilled fighter and one of the few 4th line enforcers types left.   It happens.  He was frustrated, he probably hated getting booed, probably hated getting checked late in the game, so he retaliated and lost a fight.  So what.  He cares. 

Cozens is becoming  completed player.  He is 22, he is still filling out physically.  At 6'3" 195 he will eventually play in the low 200's.  I like his game more than most players on this team.  

Now the separate issue is this - are Top 6 forwards like Cozens and Tuch going to be the guys that defend the honor of the team?  That is not ideal.  

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

To the bold -  I think there is a lot of over reaction on the Cozens fight.  

Cozens is skill player.  He also has size and grit.  Prior to Hathaway, he had 4 fights in the NHL and he handled himself fine in every one of them.  This time he tangled with the wrong guy.  Hathaway is a skilled fighter and one of the few 4th line enforcers types left.   It happens.  He was frustrated, he probably hated getting booed, probably hated getting checked late in the game, so he retaliated and lost a fight.  So what.  He cares. 

Cozens is becoming  completed player.  He is 22, he is still filling out physically.  At 6'3" 195 he will eventually play in the low 200's.  I like his game more than most players on this team.  

Now the separate issue is this - are Top 6 forwards like Cozens and Tuch going to be the guys that defend the honor of the team?  That is not ideal.  

I'm not thinking just of the fight. The injury from the fight is the bigger issue to me but the fight is just a moment to launch the conversation. I have been thinking about his play all season. He doesn't seem to have kept progressing this year and has taken a bit of a step back in his overall play. Now that could be temporary, but I had thought he'd really come into his own this year and that hasn't happened, all fighting aside. 

Now as to this bold, absolutely correct. While you want those guys unafraid and ready to step up when needed, it's better if you have some bottom end guys to handle that dirty work more often. I, for example, wanted us to sign Hathaway rather than Okposo. I still think a 4th line overhaul is what this team really needs. 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

14 hours ago, Doohickie said:

The Olofsson-Krebs-Rousek line was horrendous against Carolina.

Olofsson was the best among them and he sucked.

That's because you have 1 rookie, one that should not even be on the team (Olofsson) and Krebs who should be a 4th line center ONLY! Thats a garbage line! Or leftover line.

[Pimlach]

22 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not thinking just of the fight. The injury from the fight is the bigger issue to me but the fight is just a moment to launch the conversation. I have been thinking about his play all season. He doesn't seem to have kept progressing this year and has taken a bit of a step back in his overall play. Now that could be temporary, but I had thought he'd really come into his own this year and that hasn't happened, all fighting aside. 

Now as to this bold, absolutely correct. While you want those guys unafraid and ready to step up when needed, it's better if you have some bottom end guys to handle that dirty work more often. I, for example, wanted us to sign Hathaway rather than Okposo. I still think a 4th line overhaul is what this team really needs. 

Cozens could start playing better at any time, maybe mid season, maybe later, or he could have an off year and not score as much. 

He has been shuffled on and off a few of different lines so far.   He is a man without a set line - maybe until Quinn gets back and then maybe he reunites with Quinn and JJP.   We shall see.  Look at the career stats of most good players and they have some years with less production than others.  He scored 31 last year and 13 the year prior.  He is on a pace for 21 goals this year, but that doesn't mean he can't score 40 someday.  

Edited November 8, 2023 by Pimlach

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Cozens could start playing better at any time, maybe mid season, maybe later, or he could have an off year and not score as much. 

He has been shuffled on and off a few of different lines so far.   He is a man without a set line - maybe until Quinn gets back and then maybe he reunites with Quinn and JJP.   We shall see.  Look at the career stats of most good players and they have some years with less production than others.  He scored 31 last year and 13 the year prior.  He is on a pace for 21 goals this year, but that doesn't mean he can't score 40 someday.  

Cozens seems to be a guy that, for goal scoring at least, can get into his own head.  But, he has also shown in the past that he can get out of it quickly and can go on a tear once he does.  

Really am not too worried about his goal scoring.  That will click again at some point.  Am more interested in how the rest of his game is going.  He's still only 22 and far from a finished product.

[Porous Five Hole]

On 11/6/2023 at 9:56 PM, French Collection said:

I was against pursuing Kane but have moved to the maybe he provides middle six & PP scoring depth position. EJ coming in as a Cup winner seems to have provided excellent leadership value which Kane could also help with.

I am now questioning whether his medical procedure will ever allow him to get his skills back to where they were about two seasons ago. Backstrom had the same procedure and just has not been able to get back to an acceptable level. The financial commitment wouldn’t handcuff the team but it would still be a risk if he were to come in and not perform.

 

For me, the team is making strides defensively and Kane doesn’t do anything to help that.  

[French Collection]

8 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

For me, the team is making strides defensively and Kane doesn’t do anything to help that.  

I know.

I’ve been back and forth on this but my gut always says no to Kane.

The only way I want him is if they move a couple of forwards out in an upgrade move at G or D.

[shrader]

6 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I agree, but before condemning him I'd like to see him between wingers not named Olofsson.

That has to be the most randomly assembled line this team has thrown out there in a while. 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, shrader said:

That has to be the most randomly assembled line this team has thrown out there in a while. 

Yes.  But with the decision to not play Savoie in Carolina and the injuries to Quinn, Cozens, Benson, and Biro; which of the other 3 lines do you mess up to try to make that line not useless?

[shrader]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yes.  But with the decision to not play Savoie in Carolina and the injuries to Quinn, Cozens, Benson, and Biro; which of the other 3 lines do you mess up to try to make that line not useless?

Yeah, not random, but a definite frankenstein line.

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Cozens could start playing better at any time, maybe mid season, maybe later, or he could have an off year and not score as much. 

He has been shuffled on and off a few of different lines so far.   He is a man without a set line - maybe until Quinn gets back and then maybe he reunites with Quinn and JJP.   We shall see.  Look at the career stats of most good players and they have some years with less production than others.  He scored 31 last year and 13 the year prior.  He is on a pace for 21 goals this year, but that doesn't mean he can't score 40 someday.  

That's the problem imo. There's still too much shuffling and movement all over the roster. I think it's well past time they all had clearly defined roles and positions and barring a massive amount of injuries (where you have no choice but to juggle) they need to be slotted in those spots and expected to do those jobs. If they dont' they get replaced. 

We have, to this point in time, done Cozens a disservice by giving him too many different linemates and sometimes inferior ones. They seem to have gone to great lengths to helps Mitts find his place, but with Cozens it's almost like they expect him to carry whoever they toss out with him. 

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's the problem imo. There's still too much shuffling and movement all over the roster. I think it's well past time they all had clearly defined roles and positions and barring a massive amount of injuries (where you have no choice but to juggle) they need to be slotted in those spots and expected to do those jobs. If they dont' they get replaced. 

We have, to this point in time, done Cozens a disservice by giving him too many different linemates and sometimes inferior ones. They seem to have gone to great lengths to helps Mitts find his place, but with Cozens it's almost like they expect him to carry whoever they toss out with him. 

Not sure it was a disservice, he potted 31 last year.  His  ability to adapt like that might become a strength some day. 
 

The lines, especially the middle 6, will evolve for awhile.  Still a young group.  

[tom webster]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:48 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Cozens still out? Hmm, I wonder if he's going to come back gun shy. Not good. 

Those bottom lines are not good. 

I hope he does come back gun shy. Your top centers shouldn’t be getting into fights with other teams top pugilists. 
The notion that getting into a fight the final minutes of an embarrassing loss has any benefit at all is laughable.

The concept that teams still have to employ “fighters” to protect their top players is laughable.

The notion that the Sabres wouldn’t have been better served with Cozens in the lineup against Carolina is incomprehensible.

[dudacek]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's the problem imo. There's still too much shuffling and movement all over the roster. I think it's well past time they all had clearly defined roles and positions and barring a massive amount of injuries (where you have no choice but to juggle) they need to be slotted in those spots and expected to do those jobs. If they dont' they get replaced. 

We have, to this point in time, done Cozens a disservice by giving him too many different linemates and sometimes inferior ones. They seem to have gone to great lengths to helps Mitts find his place, but with Cozens it's almost like they expect him to carry whoever they toss out with him. 

You when Granato keeps sending the kids out there after they make mistakes: Players need to be accountable and Granato needs to coach to win, not to develop.

You when he shuffles lines that aren’t working and rides players that are: They need to be more patient and put players in an advantageous position to succeed.

[inkman]

23 hours ago, Pimlach said:

To the bold -  I think there is a lot of over reaction on the Cozens fight.  

Cozens is skill player.  He also has size and grit.  Prior to Hathaway, he had 4 fights in the NHL and he handled himself fine in every one of them.  This time he tangled with the wrong guy.  Hathaway is a skilled fighter and one of the few 4th line enforcers types left.   It happens.  He was frustrated, he probably hated getting booed, probably hated getting checked late in the game, so he retaliated and lost a fight.  So what.  He cares. 

Cozens is becoming  completed player.  He is 22, he is still filling out physically.  At 6'3" 195 he will eventually play in the low 200's.  I like his game more than most players on this team.  

Now the separate issue is this - are Top 6 forwards like Cozens and Tuch going to be the guys that defend the honor of the team?  That is not ideal.  

The Fight seems like a big deal to me.  Cozens looks like he got hit in the face with a baseball bat.  He will be more susceptible to concussions and could shorten his career, significantly.  

[MISabresFan]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's the problem imo. There's still too much shuffling and movement all over the roster. I think it's well past time they all had clearly defined roles and positions and barring a massive amount of injuries (where you have no choice but to juggle) they need to be slotted in those spots and expected to do those jobs. If they dont' they get replaced. 

We have, to this point in time, done Cozens a disservice by giving him too many different linemates and sometimes inferior ones. They seem to have gone to great lengths to helps Mitts find his place, but with Cozens it's almost like they expect him to carry whoever they toss out with him. 

I see your point, but in the past 12 years no playoffs.  Pick a way you want to play and design your players and lines that way.   You want to score, get speed, and stick talent.  If you want balance then adjust the lines that way.  Make a decision and live with it.  Seems like both Buffalo franchises are lacking a direction.  Ask yourself, when you play a Buffalo NHL or NFL team, what do you expect to see?  A lot of times - it is "I don't know".  Wonder what is common between them....

[dudacek]

Having an identity since Granato and Adams took over is not a Sabre problem in the slightest.

They want 3 lines of high-skill pace-pushing forwards and mobile defencemen who close on attackers quickly and flip the ice effectively. They want their team to play the game faster than you do and be skilled enough to capitalize on the breakdowns their pace causes. They actively seek out players who can play that way.

Playing to their identity has been a problem. When the Sabres are moving their feet, they’re good, when they stop skating, they aren’t.

Edited November 9, 2023 by dudacek